Regarding Primordius

[Gandalf]

If you get the buff that increases your haste then wouldn't it be logical to assume that the up-time any of the RPPM trinkets would be extremely high during the encounter? I had 3 stacks of the haste buff during our kill last week and yet my up-time on bad juju was extremely low, only around 7%. Clearly that fight I had some terrible RNG, but is the haste from the buff not considered "real haste?" I know there is a lot of controversy going around that haste is still not worth gemming/reforging for over mastery, and I believe I remember reading that Ahdehl from Blood Legion said he had tested a full haste, full mastery, and a good mix of both build, yet he said he was still having better results with the full mastery build. Regardless of what shadowcraft shows, I feel like haste may be better on paper, but mastery better in practice because it's more consistent. What are some of your guys thoughts?

[Cortic]

What spec are you referring to here? Personally I usually get better / more consistent results with my upgraded dmf over bad juju.

[Gandalf]

What spec are you referring to here? Personally I usually get better / more consistent results with my upgraded dmf over bad juju.

I am referring to Assassination, and your second comment is not really relevant to anything I just posted.

[Cortic]

I am referring to Assassination, and your second comment is not really relevant to anything I just posted.

Needy much?

Regardless of your rudeness to the only reply you received, Shadowcraft should (and does) recommend mastery > haste for Assassination. Even with RPPM trinkets where the two become extremely close it doesn't take a genius to determine the difference between reliability and chance.

[Tisha]

The problem with going heavy haste is that it opens you up to being dependent on RNG swinging your way. High haste increases the potential number of procs, but you can still just be screwed over by bad RNG and do less damage than you would from being heavy mastery.

[Gandalf]

Needy much?

Regardless of your rudeness to the only reply you received, Shadowcraft should (and does) recommend mastery > haste for Assassination. Even with RPPM trinkets where the two become extremely close it doesn't take a genius to determine the difference between reliability and chance.

Don't confuse bluntness with rudeness. Your comment was not relevant and clearly pointed out a lack of reading comprehension, there is no need to take it as a personal attack.

"And Shadowcraft should(and does) recommend mastery > haste for Assassination"
This not even remotely true, with two RPPM trinkets and a meta gem there is no way that shadowcraft is ever going to recommend mastery > haste in its current form.

[Cyriaa]

Don't confuse bluntness with rudeness. Your comment was not relevant and clearly pointed out a lack of reading comprehension, there is no need to be butt hurt about it.

"And Shadowcraft should(and does) recommend mastery > haste for Assassination"
This not even remotely true, with two RPPM trinkets and a meta gem there is no way that shadowcraft is ever going to recommend mastery > haste in its current form.

Why would make a new thread asking for help then argue with the people trying to help?
If you know the answer, why ask the question?

[Gandalf]

Why would make a new thread asking for help then argue with the people trying to help?
If you know the answer, why ask the question?

Lol? He provided not a single relevant comment to my question, nor was I looking for an answer to anything. Tisha was the only one that provided a comment relevant to my discussion

[Kael]

Just drop the relevant/not relevant/rudeness "discussion". There isn't any way it's going to become productive.

Primordius' debuff does provide "real" haste to my knowledge, and you're just seeing bad luck. I had one spectacular LFR with over 85% uptime on ToB. Likelihood? Extremely low. Both haste and mastery builds are subject to RNG so long as you're using current-tier trinkets, that just won't change. For more information on the topic, see posts in the 5.2 trinkets discussion thread and Assassination: the nitty gritty thread.

For pulls with a haste build, when you get low procrate, your damage will not be as high as with average luck. For pulls with a mastery build, when you get a low procrate, your damage will not be as high as with average luck. The only difference is the luck floor - if you're expecting 5 procs on average and get 2, it sucks. If you're expecting around 8 procs and get 2, it REALLY sucks. Getting 2 procs with THAT much haste, however, is extraordinarily rare. Math for damage is all about averages, and across all pulls, there are points where reforging a mix of haste and mastery is over a pure mastery build. To my knowledge, there is no set for which full haste is ahead.

...and yes, ShC will recommend mastery > haste. The threshold for haste v. mastery at which this occurs varies with gear, but it does happen. Stat weights change.

[Gandalf]

Just drop the relevant/not relevant/rudeness "discussion". There isn't any way it's going to become productive.

Primordius' debuff does provide "real" haste to my knowledge, and you're just seeing bad luck. I had one spectacular LFR with over 85% uptime on ToB. Likelihood? Extremely low. Both haste and mastery builds are subject to RNG so long as you're using current-tier trinkets, that just won't change. For more information on the topic, see posts in the 5.2 trinkets discussion thread and Assassination: the nitty gritty thread.

For pulls with a haste build, when you get low procrate, your damage will not be as high as with average luck. For pulls with a mastery build, when you get a low procrate, your damage will not be as high as with average luck. The only difference is the luck floor - if you're expecting 5 procs on average and get 2, it sucks. If you're expecting around 8 procs and get 2, it REALLY sucks. Getting 2 procs with THAT much haste, however, is extraordinarily rare. Math for damage is all about averages, and across all pulls, there are points where reforging a mix of haste and mastery is over a pure mastery build. To my knowledge, there is no set for which full haste is ahead.

...and yes, ShC will recommend mastery > haste. The threshold for haste v. mastery at which this occurs varies with gear, but it does happen. Stat weights change.

This is exactly the type of information I was looking, thank you. However, if the only reason to reforge haste > mastery is to get more trinket procs and yet a massive haste buff like the one from Primordius is not enough to overcome rng, what would then be the point of prioritizing haste at all? If a huge buff like that one in Primordius is not capable of increasing trinket procs by a significant number, then why would I worry about changing a mastery gem to a haste gem, or reforging the expertise into haste on renatakis over mastery. Obviously RNG is rng, but it still seems like haste is not making that big of a dent.

[Deleted]

Well, the question is... does the buff + 30 % haste (if you get 3 stacks) give you +30 % haste or just increase your haste rating by 30 %?
I guess its the latter and so its no wonder the rppm trinkets aren't that much affected by it.

[Kael]

You don't "overcome" RNG, it just exists at all levels. If you're looking a 500 meta procs over an encounter at 0 haste, and go to 20% haste, you're now expecting 600 meta procs over an encounter. If you're short 100 procs compared to what you expected, you're short 100 procs compared to what you expected. That... doesn't change with gear. You still have more procs with higher haste. For proc values as low as a frequency of 3 or 4 over an encounter, you may very well have a fight with 2 or even 1 procs at any realistic haste value - whether your expected procs are 4 or 5, you could still see 1. If you're expecting 5, you're more like to get 9 procs than if you were expecting 4, by the same token. That's the nature of RNG and luck as a whole.

If haste was only for RPPM it would be worthless. All stats don't exist in a bubble. Increasing one stat (any of them, at all) makes every other stat more valuable, while the stat you increased remains stable. With no RPPM trinkets or meta, given enough mastery, haste will pull ahead, as would crit. That's... just how stats work. Haste just got a boost from RPPM - small enough that you're not seeing full-haste builds across all assassination rogues with no hint of mastery making a comeback.

Take this profile: link - make sure the gems are optimized first - and look at the stats. Haste and mastery are REALLY CLOSE TOGETHER. So close, that if you optimize reforge, they swap positions. Hit it again, and they swap back. Apologies to Sicc for borrowing his profile. Hopefully he'll understand if he reads this.

Blue - it's 30% total haste, so 3 stacks is like bloodlust. On average, RPPM on that fight is generally rather high - if I recall correctly and it's "true" haste.

If anyone wants to collect data on hundreds of Primordius fights where people had 2 or more +haste effects and compare it to a large enough sample size of other fights, be my guest.

[Dropndestroyrr]

TL;DR - Check stat weights on Shadowcraft.

[Kael]

The ShC profile you linked doesn't really show the amount of which haste overtakes mastery. At normal 522 gear levels Mastery is still better than haste. When you get heroic trinkets and gear, the difference is much higher with the higher chances to proc on those heroic trinkets. You can look at any heroic geared rogue in ShC and see that is similar in that way.

If you read the entire post, I wasn't arguing that haste overtakes mastery. By nature, the two desire a certain balance, which that profile shows. I will say that, now in H/HTF gear, there are some rogues who no longer reach the point where mastery > haste for adding more, but the values are still very close.

To borrow Ahdehl's profile, on loading:

Haste Rating1.325
Mastery Rating1.324

Given another 1,000 haste out of nowhere, mastery would be ahead again, just like that. If you move a H TF ToB in place of RSC for Ahdehl's profile, you still hit a swap point, where Shadowcraft can't find the nice even point, because it reforges haste, then sees mastery ahead, reforges mastery, see haste ahead, etc.