1. #1941
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    But now this is all hated as "wasted time" and "wasted travel" that Blizzard puts to force players to spend longer playing and it should be MORE streamlined. I kid you not, I've seen arguments that things in Pandaria are too spread out just to force players to waste time traveling....
    They are. Let's say I want to spend justice to buy 476 honor gear as their guide suggests. I first have to get back to SW or ORG to convert that justice (which is still for some stupid reason at a loss even though they advocate this as a gearing method but i digress) then back to pandaria only to have to fly TO ALMOST THE EXACT OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE CONTINENT. See it's not so much that it's far apart or that it's not all centrally located it's just that it's so fucking OBVIOUS they put it far apart for the sake of putting it far apart. It doesn't feel immersive, it just feels inconvenient for the sake of inconvenience. I don't even stick around I just auto fly or get ont he flight path. May as well port me ffs.

    Or even just to get to the new island. it's almost literally on the opposite side of the map from the panda portal from stormwind. I mean come on. it could be half way. it could be in karasang. But to be the almost mirrored exactly opposite on the other side. It's just soooooo obvious.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #1942
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yea times change. When we killed rag for the first time it was a pretty good feeling. same for Arch but it was when we killed Arch I started to get a real sense of disenfranchisement with raiding. Not all raid experiences go well. Not all guild and social experiences go well in warcraft and when killed Arch I was happy but at the same time I had also been getting a sense of this is kinda gay these people suck and I'd much rather go play mass effect. So that's what I did. And didn't come back for quite a bit. When I did I got lucky and met a group of players I really gel with socially and that was because of easy puggable 10 man content. It has to be said and it has to be reinforced over and over again. That's how you keep players playing I think.
    It's a balance of ease of playing with need for community...

    Wrath had it best, with a balance of assessable content and the ability to have casual/semi casual, but guilded raiding.

  3. #1943
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solitare-sp View Post
    It's a balance of ease of playing with need for community...

    Wrath had it best, with a balance of assessable content and the ability to have casual/semi casual, but guilded raiding.
    Yep. I like lfr but man pugging those 25 mans on the weekend but also having access to meanigful lfd content that had catch up behind it was the best balance the had. As well as being able to do some beer league 10 mans. I miss that fucking expansion. I was in ICC for a year and I miss that place. Can you imaging being stuck in ToT for a year? Helllllll no.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #1944
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yep. I like lfr but man pugging those 25 mans on the weekend but also having access to meanigful lfd content that had catch up behind it was the best balance the had. As well as being able to do some beer league 10 mans. I miss that fucking expansion. I was in ICC for a year and I miss that place. Can you imaging being stuck in ToT for a year? Helllllll no.
    And I did exactly the same...ran 10mans as a guild, and then the 25 mans were a casual thing on the weekend...

    Used the 5man catch up dungeons for my alts, so I didn't get stuck on healing duty all the time.

  5. #1945
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solitare-sp View Post
    And I did exactly the same...ran 10mans as a guild, and then the 25 mans were a casual thing on the weekend...

    Used the 5man catch up dungeons for my alts, so I didn't get stuck on healing duty all the time.
    And then eventually my alts pugged 25s and 10s as well. Brilliant. Utterly BRILLIANT. It offered me lots to do on diff characters and lot's of progression for those character but it also offered players who like their one character an opportunity to raid on those characters at multiple difficulties and at whatever choice of difficulty they could taste.

    Look pugs had alot of issues, people were assholes and I think they could have done something about the loot system but man I had good times in those pugs. Even just rep runs dude.

    Ironically that was when I fell in love with healing. Man that's another thing wrath did well. Got players to try different roles.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-10 at 02:57 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #1946
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    They are. Let's say I want to spend justice to buy 476 honor gear as their guide suggests.
    Even I agree the PvP gear vendor placement made no sense.
    At all.
    Whatsoever.

    Or even just to get to the new island. it's almost literally on the opposite side of the map from the panda portal from stormwind. I mean come on. it could be half way. it could be in karasang. But to be the almost mirrored exactly opposite on the other side. It's just soooooo obvious.
    This one actually doesn't bother me as much. You're heading to an island over on that side of the continent, head to that side of the continent. I'm not favorable for teleporting everywhere and portals accessing everything from a city. I've seen a lot advocating that yes, indeed, if there's a hearthstone bind location, we should be able to teleport to them instantly. No flight paths, no hearthstone cool downs. Instant teleport as close as you can get to your goal because otherwise you're wasting the players' time.

    Do you design an MMORPG as an RPG in a world or as a series of arcade games? Personally, I'm cool with travel times and a world, even if there's nothing actively going on with the travel. But again, I will openly note my bias. I've done the 30 minute boat rides to Felwithe. I've walked from Qeynos to Freeport. EQ toughened me up to inconvenience and an MMO as a breathing world. And the world ain't fair, it ain't convenient. I'm perhaps a teeny bit masochistic with MMOs. I think too much convenience hurts the game in the big picture. I'm sure many, perhaps most, disagree with me and we WILL have the insta-port anywhere on the map in time.

  7. #1947
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    And then eventually my alts pugged 25s and 10s as well. Brilliant. Utterly BRILLIANT. It offered me lots to do on diff characters and lot's of progression for those character but it also offered players who like their one character an opportunity to raid on those characters at multiple difficulties and at whatever choice of difficulty they could taste.

    Look pugs had alot of issues, people were assholes and I think they could have done something about the loot system but man I had good times in those pugs. Even just rep runs dude.
    The only issue is that less people raied then than now. I think we do need to go back to 10man being easier than 25man raiding. I think LFR does a goob job and i think staggering it a bit further should help out. I think 10man needs to go back to beer league like wrath, with 25man being the harder version with better gear and ofc heroic mode 25man being the top end. 10man can have its own heroic mode but it's ofc not as hard as 25man normal.

    but I don't know if we will ever see that gain. I also want to see more 5man dungeon content.

  8. #1948
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yep. I like lfr but man pugging those 25 mans on the weekend but also having access to meanigful lfd content that had catch up behind it was the best balance the had. As well as being able to do some beer league 10 mans. I miss that fucking expansion. I was in ICC for a year and I miss that place. Can you imaging being stuck in ToT for a year? Helllllll no.
    We did ICC 25 with about 8 people last weekend. Can't begin to tell you how much fun it still is for me in there.

  9. #1949
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Even I agree the PvP gear vendor placement made no sense.
    At all.
    Whatsoever.



    This one actually doesn't bother me as much. You're heading to an island over on that side of the continent, head to that side of the continent. I'm not favorable for teleporting everywhere and portals accessing everything from a city. I've seen a lot advocating that yes, indeed, if there's a hearthstone bind location, we should be able to teleport to them instantly. No flight paths, no hearthstone cool downs. Instant teleport as close as you can get to your goal because otherwise you're wasting the players' time.

    Do you design an MMORPG as an RPG in a world or as a series of arcade games? Personally, I'm cool with travel times and a world, even if there's nothing actively going on with the travel. But again, I will openly note my bias. I've done the 30 minute boat rides to Felwithe. I've walked from Qeynos to Freeport. EQ toughened me up to inconvenience and an MMO as a breathing world. And the world ain't fair, it ain't convenient. I'm perhaps a teeny bit masochistic with MMOs. I think too much convenience hurts the game in the big picture. I'm sure many, perhaps most, disagree with me and we WILL have the insta-port anywhere on the map in time.
    utter wimp,

    I ran naked in UO to fight past griefers to try and recover items from my corpse! uphill both ways!

  10. #1950
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Even I agree the PvP gear vendor placement made no sense.
    At all.
    Whatsoever.



    This one actually doesn't bother me as much. You're heading to an island over on that side of the continent, head to that side of the continent. I'm not favorable for teleporting everywhere and portals accessing everything from a city. I've seen a lot advocating that yes, indeed, if there's a hearthstone bind location, we should be able to teleport to them instantly. No flight paths, no hearthstone cool downs. Instant teleport as close as you can get to your goal because otherwise you're wasting the players' time.

    Do you design an MMORPG as an RPG in a world or as a series of arcade games? Personally, I'm cool with travel times and a world, even if there's nothing actively going on with the travel. But again, I will openly note my bias. I've done the 30 minute boat rides to Felwithe. I've walked from Qeynos to Freeport. EQ toughened me up to inconvenience and an MMO as a breathing world. And the world ain't fair, it ain't convenient. I'm perhaps a teeny bit masochistic with MMOs. I think too much convenience hurts the game in the big picture. I'm sure many, perhaps most, disagree with me and we WILL have the insta-port anywhere on the map in time.
    Yea but dude I would argue that people probably just flight path the journey and alt tab. Or leave auto run on their flying mount and alt tab. Theirs no difference. You know this whole this whole get people out into the world as immersion argument is so dumb. Pandaria isn't immersive, it's just cumbersome and annoying. I didn't feel immersed because i had to go out and do dailies, I felt annoyed and wanted to get it over with as soon as I could. Inconvenience is not Immersion. Removing HGWT didn't all of a sudden make the game feel big again. Pandaria still feels small and always will. The feeling of immersion has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with an increase of QOL features and everythign to do with you knowing to much as a player and you being smarter and bigger than the game now. You've done it all, read it all, seen it all and theirs very little they can send you way that will draw you in like that. Immersion like that happened very briefly in vanilla. Until I got wise to the game so to speak. Then I saw the man behind the curtain and poof.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 03:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    The only issue is that less people raied then than now. I think we do need to go back to 10man being easier than 25man raiding. I think LFR does a goob job and i think staggering it a bit further should help out. I think 10man needs to go back to beer league like wrath, with 25man being the harder version with better gear and ofc heroic mode 25man being the top end. 10man can have its own heroic mode but it's ofc not as hard as 25man normal.

    but I don't know if we will ever see that gain. I also want to see more 5man dungeon content.
    Ultimately whatever they do vis a vi difficulty they have to not try and make the raids a one size fits all philosophy. I hate hate hate hate the fact that on bosses like 10 horridon Ihave to commit like 9 of my players to stand in spectrum phases but in 25 man it's still 9 of my players in spectrum phases and I've got like 10 who can float around and cover whatever. They have to tune these things with an eye and a view to the actual raid sizes.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 03:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    We did ICC 25 with about 8 people last weekend. Can't begin to tell you how much fun it still is for me in there.
    Hell yea gonna do that this weekend if I get a chance. Warlock needs more XMOG. Can never sate the thirst for XMOg gear.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #1951
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Yea but dude I would argue that people probably just flight path the journey and alt tab. Or leave auto run on their flying mount and alt tab. Theirs no difference. You know this whole this whole get people out into the world as immersion argument is so dumb. Pandaria isn't immersive, it's just cumbersome and annoying. I didn't feel immersed because i had to go out and do dailies, I felt annoyed and wanted to get it over with as soon as I could. Inconvenience is not Immersion. Removing HGWT didn't all of a sudden make the game feel big again. Pandaria still feels small and always will. The feeling of immersion has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with an increase of QOL features and everythign to do with you knowing to much as a player and you being smarter and bigger than the game now. You've done it all, read it all, seen it all and theirs very little they can send you way that will draw you in like that. Immersion like that happened very briefly in vanilla. Until I got wise to the game so to speak. Then I saw the man behind the curtain and poof.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 03:06 PM ----------



    Ultimately whatever they do vis a vi difficulty they have to not try and make the raids a one size fits all philosophy. I hate hate hate hate the fact that on bosses like 10 horridon Ihave to commit like 9 of my players to stand in spectrum phases but in 25 man it's still 9 of my players in spectrum phases and I've got like 10 who can float around and cover whatever. They have to tune these things with an eye and a view to the actual raid sizes.
    I'm torn. Probably because when I look back at Vanilla I loved 'the world', and there were dangerous places and strange places etc. Stuff like the wetlands run as a NE, or going north from redridge and being one-shot very quickly in burning steppes...and then getting strong enough to survive in there...

    Now, I'm probably jaded. And I expect the vast number of WoW players are, so QOL stuff makes more sense, but we still yearn for the old days...and theres probably nothing Blizzard can do about that..

  12. #1952
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solitare-sp View Post
    I'm torn. Probably because when I look back at Vanilla I loved 'the world', and there were dangerous places and strange places etc. Stuff like the wetlands run as a NE, or going north from redridge and being one-shot very quickly in burning steppes...and then getting strong enough to survive in there...

    Now, I'm probably jaded. And I expect the vast number of WoW players are, so QOL stuff makes more sense, but we still yearn for the old days...and theres probably nothing Blizzard can do about that..
    I remember the jungles of stranglethorn well. It was almost like you could taste the swet from the heat of the jungle. Or the mysteries of Dire Maul. The music of original wow and tbc played a big part of that. Theirs this theme when you through the dark portal and look at the stair of destiny. I play with the sound off now becuse I can't stand the pandas dialogue but everytime I go through the dark portal I turn it on just for that theme. Everythign seemed so much bigger back then. Well that's done and you are absolutely right Blizzard can't do a damn thing about.

    Now the good news is that Blizzard can do a better job of telling us interesting stories and capturing our attention in other ways. I for one am really excited to see what the world of 6.0 will look like. I don't expect to be that fully immersed but immersion isn't a binary concept I don't think. The game can still have cool shit make you go that's neat. Admittedly i didn't see much of that in pandaria uhh cause I really wasn't into the panda vibe but in wotlk I was still caught up in things like the ToC grounds. I loved that the medieval times theme with jousting. Everyone is so down ToC but they don't see the other stuff that came with that patch. Man that's good optional content to stack with a raid.

    You know I guess alot of it is that the theme of pandaria just isn't terrible appealing so all that stuff they work hard to put in like the island of thunder is kinda meh. The island is okay I guess but it's no IOQD. It apparently isn't appealing enough to the chinese which is funny in and of itself but it's also not all that appealing to westerners. Like I said 5.3 can't come fast enough. Back to the barrens. And then 6.0 better be mars.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-10 at 03:18 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #1953
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solitare-sp View Post
    Now, I'm probably jaded. And I expect the vast number of WoW players are, so QOL stuff makes more sense, but we still yearn for the old days...and theres probably nothing Blizzard can do about that..
    I dunno. They could probably capitalize on the Emerald Dream to bring back old areas. What could they do to your character when you enter the realm to look at and interact with Azeroth's blueprints? Maybe some of the areas would require such care and precision that you would need to stop using some abilities you picked up later, maybe limit you to old character buffs that only lasted a few minutes. There's a lot that they could do, but it would still require a lot of developer investment.

  14. #1954
    Quote Originally Posted by unrealeck View Post
    I told someone I reported them for using an auction house bot.
    Next time don't tell them you reported them. I mean, what good does that do at all?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  15. #1955
    Quote Originally Posted by Parrin View Post
    I dunno. They could probably capitalize on the Emerald Dream to bring back old areas. What could they do to your character when you enter the realm to look at and interact with Azeroth's blueprints? Maybe some of the areas would require such care and precision that you would need to stop using some abilities you picked up later, maybe limit you to old character buffs that only lasted a few minutes. There's a lot that they could do, but it would still require a lot of developer investment.
    No one...no one needs back the old 10 (or was it 5) min Pally buffs...or the need for reagents, or the need for different ranks (expect maybe healers and down ranking..now there was a lost skill), or the need to apply different buffs to everyone.. (oh god, the fights over whether people wanted kings, or might, or wisdom....).

    Believe me, theres many, many things which should be left well in the past.

  16. #1956
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    utter wimp,

    I ran naked in UO to fight past griefers to try and recover items from my corpse! uphill both ways!
    /bow down
    /bow down
    /bow down


    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The feeling of immersion has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with an increase of QOL features and everythign to do with you knowing to much as a player and you being smarter and bigger than the game now. You've done it all, read it all, seen it all and theirs very little they can send you way that will draw you in like that. Immersion like that happened very briefly in vanilla. Until I got wise to the game so to speak. Then I saw the man behind the curtain and poof.
    You're probably right on the player being smarter than the game now, but I still felt much more immersed traveling through Wrath than the insta-queue-teleport we have now. Actually traveling to dungeons, gathering with others, seeing people waiting on the rest of their group. Somehow it felt like we were all there. I think too much convenience does contribute to the "world" becoming more of "just a game." However, I think perhaps the genie's out of the bottle and, like I said, we WILL see more insta-porting in the future.

    WoW died in Wrath as an MMORPG for me. Once LFD was introduced, sure, it was an improvement for some, but I mark that as the patch that WoW became only an MMO. Or as I call it, and its clones, an MMOArcade.

    Hell yea gonna do that this weekend if I get a chance. Warlock needs more XMOG. Can never sate the thirst for XMOg gear.
    I didn't like much Wrath gear for transmog either myself, but good luck to ya!

  17. #1957
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solitare-sp View Post
    No one...no one needs back the old 10 (or was it 5) min Pally buffs...or the need for reagents, or the need for different ranks (expect maybe healers and down ranking..now there was a lost skill), or the need to apply different buffs to everyone.. (oh god, the fights over whether people wanted kings, or might, or wisdom....).

    Believe me, theres many, many things which should be left well in the past.
    The list is staggering to be honest. Well I wouldn't mind having divine intervention back :P or 100% BoL. But yea their is no going back.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 03:24 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post

    I didn't like much Wrath gear for transmog either myself, but good luck to ya!
    Well warlocks have good gear no matter what tier. Except for mists. Warlocks get all the fucking good looking gear.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  18. #1958
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I play with the sound off now becuse I can't stand the pandas dialogue but everytime I go through the dark portal I turn it on just for that theme.
    Blasphemy! Lorewalker Cho is Jim Cummings!

    That said, can we have a draenei vindicator or justicar playing a pivotal role in the next Legion themed expansion voiced by Peter Cullen? =3

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Well warlocks have good gear no matter what tier. Except for mists.
    I didn't like their ICC set, but I also didn't like Tier 6 for them (other than the wings)
    Last edited by Faroth; 2013-05-10 at 03:26 PM.

  19. #1959
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    Blasphemy! Lorewalker Cho is Jim Cummings!

    That said, can we have a draenei vindicator or justicar playing a pivotal role in the next Legion themed expansion voiced by Peter Cullen? =3



    I didn't like their ICC set, but I also didn't like Tier 6 for them (other than the wings)
    I dislike the t6 helm but i like the shoulder and the chest piece. Their icc set looks gooooooooood. So does the ulduar set. So did the ds set. So did the karazhan and TK set. So much good gear to mix and match.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    That void walker helm is probably one of the best looking and best designed helms ever. Who says wow doesn't look good. Granted current art leaves much to be desired (although that little panda belt is cute) but some of their stuff will stand the test of time and still holds up.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-10 at 03:32 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #1960
    Deleted

    It's not you Blizzard, it's me......

    It's not you Blizzard, it's me......

    I am not playing right now, mostly because I am in the process of establishing my new position of employment and also partly because I don't enjoy the game as I used to.... it's more because I have wanted to change rather than this game driving me away, the changes have created an excuse not to play masking the underlying reasons.

    World of Warcraft - The Mists Of Pandaria is just a great, no, the best MMO, (for me) it just works and it manages to do it better any other (re-inventing itself each expac is like making film sequels...a bit special if everyone is a hit), but by design, these mmo's are grindfests and that repetitive but necessary style (that makes you "feel" obliged to play) no longer fits in with my life.

    So, the way my desire to try and break the cycle manifested itself by resenting the amount of time required to plough through other things (dailies, LFR, Dailies, Raiding - rinse and repeat week in week out to remain as competitive as possible and grind rep etc....), not being able to get some downtime to play alts (always felt all my time needed to be spent optimising my main for raiding).......eventually I had created enough frustration to want to play less, then I got a new job, which provided the final part of motivation required to 'take a break'.

    New Job has started well and the times when I would of usually raided with my guild, are now spent with the family, summary of which is that I am enjoying this time more than I enjoyed playing the game.....I miss the guild though, no doubt.

    I'd like to think I will come back and play again this year - I've re-discovered that, for me, there's more to life than virtual world gameplay of this genre but that's not this games fault, we're just coming to an end of an era.

    So I've not stopped playing because I hate WoW or the way it is today, I've had great fun since Vanilla - I'd like to come back and finish this expac - it's just with around 580days gameplay to my name (as well as added time playing Star Wars, LOTR and some other FTP MMO's), when MoP is finally over, I'm as good as done with this style of MMORPG now and will look for something less intense to play in future.

    There's a chance I am not alone feeling this way and could be one of the reasons why the subs drop is higher than previously experienced in a shorter space of time than ever before.

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