1. #2801
    Deleted
    I doubt LFR/LFD/<insert feature you dont like> have much to do with losing subs. Blizzard even increased dev size and they are adding more content for players than ever before, but still are losing subs. WoW is simply old game and there is lot less new player who buy wow these days while same time you have old players leaving wow because they are bored of it. There have always been time in wow where old player simply get bored of it and quit, but before there was new players who would replace these players.

  2. #2802
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    You may call them entitled but that distinction is ultimately MEANINGLESS (and the moral judgement your making equally meaningless) for the developer and the player you are refering to. They don't think they are entitled obviously, they just aren't having fun. The developer cannot also turn around and say hey don't you know your entitled? when you coming back you spoiled kid?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #2803
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    You may call them entitled but that distinction is ultimately MEANINGLESS (and the moral judgement your making equally meaningless) for the developer and the player you are refering to. They don't think they are entitled obviously, they just aren't having fun. The developer cannot also turn around and say hey don't you know your entitled? when you coming back you spoiled kid?
    indeed the developer will see loss in subs. Looking at their stats they will see what players are doing. See if there is any feedback on the leaving the game bit on account management. They will see other market leaders in both sub and f2p. They will look at all the possible data they can. If they think they can make something that will keep subs and most importantly draw subs back/make new ones they will do ANYTHING they can to do so.

    If it was revealed LFR was the cause it'd go or be changed.

    If it was Heroic raiding that was the cause it'd go or be changed.

    If dailies were the cause it'd go or be changed.

    If a rival game has x or y feature that draws in subs then you might see that come in.

    Or all these factors then you would see sweeping changes.

  4. #2804
    Quote Originally Posted by Stannis View Post
    But here's the fact: Bioshock and almost every game offers multiple difficulties, while old WoW only had one catering to the hardcores.
    Except for 1 moment. WoW was never hardcore except for guild/raid leaders. In fact it was advertised as game mostly aimed at "casuals". Right when the phone was EverQuest, mother of WoW, which was quite hardcore, but it was also far from popular.

    And in neither game raids had such ridiculous overload on mechanics and arcade requirements than in WoW now, EverQuest was simply completely unforgiving to wipes (now it is more "softcore" though). Used to wipe 100 times on progression in WoW? Great - in EQ it would mean getting 10 levels back, which would mean 10 days of group grind of low level mobs. Wasted your corpse(s)? Well, sucks to be you, you are to be geared from point zero.
    Last edited by Ferocity; 2013-05-14 at 01:03 PM.

  5. #2805
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    Except for 1 moment. WoW was never hardcore except for guild/raid leaders. In fact it was advertised as game mostly aimed at "casuals". Right when the phone was EverQuest, mother of WoW, which was quite hardcore, but it was also far from popular.

    And in neither game raids had such ridiculous overload on mechanics and arcade requirements than in WoW now, EverQuest was simply completely unforgiving to wipes. Used to wipe 100 times on progression in WoW? Great - in EQ it would mean getting 10 levels back, which would mean 10 days of group grind of low level mobs. Wasted your corpse(s)? Well, sucks to be you, you are to be geared from point zero.
    But game genres evolve and so does the concept of "casual player". Back in 2004 there hadnt been any FTP or casual gaming boom yet. Nowadays you have huge competition with those games and a Vanilla model isnt simply sustaniable anymore.

  6. #2806
    Peoples minds are going to just implode and leak out of their ears when the numbers keep going down til we stabilize with north American and European servers being the primary source of players. The east is a dead end for WoW, wayyyyyyyyyyy too many mmos coming out over there that are tailored more for that market.

  7. #2807
    Quote Originally Posted by snowcrash512 View Post
    Peoples minds are going to just implode and leak out of their ears when the numbers keep going down til we stabilize with north American and European servers being the primary source of players. The east is a dead end for WoW, wayyyyyyyyyyy too many mmos coming out over there that are tailored more for that market.
    Good. Then maybe they will stop making world of china expansions and instead go back to making Warcraft-themed content.

  8. #2808
    Quote Originally Posted by Still Rampant Rabbit View Post
    I love the denial. The numbers clearly show that the game is past its prime, and is in fact, dying. There's nothing wrong with a great game approaching its 'end'.
    Still... "Dying" in MMO terms varies. Please note that other MMOs have 250k - 300k active subs and are considered to be successful. I don't think WoW is dying, I think it's getting old and feeling the pressure from newer F2P based MMOs. 8.3mio subs for an 8 year old game is still VERY impressive and WoW is nowhere near "death" imo.

    .... but it will never reach the WotLK subs (12-13mio) again. I'm quite certain of that

    Lets not forget:

    There was a lot of MMOs before WoW, but this game made MMOs mainstream and are to thank for the crazy amount of MMOs being pushed out now. This is the undeniable truth whether you like the game or not.

    Z.

  9. #2809
    Quote Originally Posted by killidan View Post
    Good. Then maybe they will stop making world of china expansions and instead go back to making Warcraft-themed content.
    Oh one of "these" posts. You know the same was said about TBC. Some people did not like high fantasy and wanted a DnD looking game. We got Wrath, then cata. Blizzard brought in an expac that was Asian themed around a new race. Kinda like who TBC was shaped with Drenai and Blood elves. TBC had more hand holding of the horde alliance than any other expansion. Mop is more warcraft themed than TBC in this respect. As there is a war going on. You know between the alliance and horde. A War thats been brewing since Wrath.

  10. #2810
    Quote Originally Posted by Stannis View Post
    But game genres evolve and so does the concept of "casual player". Back in 2004 there hadnt been any FTP or casual gaming boom yet. Nowadays you have huge competition with those games and a Vanilla model isnt simply sustaniable anymore.
    Yeah, but I, from very start, pointed at WoW being initially aimed at "casual player". And it wasn't truly as hardcore as some people here like to describe.
    Peoples minds are going to just implode and leak out of their ears when the numbers keep going down til we stabilize with north American and European servers being the primary source of players.
    Just like EQ stabilized with 200k players at best after WoW. Thing is, if WOW is going to continue same direction, he will end where EQ is now.
    Last edited by Ferocity; 2013-05-14 at 01:16 PM.

  11. #2811
    Deleted
    Blizzard banned Syria/Sudan/Iran players that is why the subs dropped.

    JK...

    But seriously! >.<

  12. #2812
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    Oh one of "these" posts. You know the same was said about TBC. Some people did not like high fantasy and wanted a DnD looking game. We got Wrath, then cata. Blizzard brought in an expac that was Asian themed around a new race. Kinda like who TBC was shaped with Drenai and Blood elves. TBC had more hand holding of the horde alliance than any other expansion. Mop is more warcraft themed than TBC in this respect. As there is a war going on. You know between the alliance and horde. A War thats been brewing since Wrath.
    BC added about 3 million subs, while MOP lost more than a million and so soon after its launch. I hope you are capable of seeing the difference. Panda hate that stormed the forums all summer, then now people posting all over hoping for a BC-themed next expansion. Open your eyes. People want to play Warcraft, not Kung Fu panda.

    Draenor has lot more story to it in WC than Kungfu panda could ever ever ever hope for. Samwise "Silly" was drawing some animal sketches on his lunch break and Blizz put one char for fun in WC (a la Harris Pilton in BC), then it became a buttjoke on an April 1st, yet later it exploded on our face as an entire panda expansion. There, that is the MOP story in WoW. If that makes it WoW lore for you, I pity. That's all.

  13. #2813
    Quote Originally Posted by killidan View Post
    BC added about 3 million subs, while MOP lost more than a million and so soon after its launch. I hope you are capable of seeing the difference. Panda hate that stormed the forums all summer, then now people posting all over hoping for a BC-themed next expansion. Open your eyes. People want to play Warcraft, not Kung Fu panda.

    Draenor has lot more story to it in WC than Kungfu panda could ever ever ever hope for. Samwise "Silly" was drawing some animal sketches on his lunch break and Blizz put one char for fun in WC (a la Harris Pilton in BC), then it became a buttjoke on an April 1st, yet later it exploded on our face as an entire panda expansion. There, that is the MOP story in WoW. If that makes it WoW lore for you, I pity. That's all.
    "open your eyes" hilarious.

    So you take some evidence from a fan site where a vocal minority say "I HATE PANDAS" and take it for gospel? Fucking hilarious.

    TBC rode the success of Vanilla, it brought in casual features to help players, and played off the fact it had 3 strong characters from one of its game come in as bad guys. The story in TBC was good but the presentation of the story was lacking compared to how they did it in MOP. (you hating the story is fine its your opinion but the presentation of the story in MOP is far better if they had these cutscenes and more voice acting in quests in TBC it would have been even better).

    The lore they did in Pandaria has been quite good. If you put pandas aside and say it was another humonoid race not even asian themed but a DND styled race. You probably would not even mind. They went to town with the story showing how the emperor came to power all about the mogu the sha and their connection to the old gods. The fact the Horde vs alliance war is heavily shown in this is great.

    The loss in subs was NOT to do with pandas. Theres more to it than that. F2P games being in heavy contention. dailies quests/gated content causing issues raid difficulties etc. Please don't post tripe and use some reasoning.

  14. #2814
    Quote Originally Posted by Ula View Post
    You mean, they're providing us with alternative gemming methods, buffing base resilience and nerfing healers. Its all in the aim to slow down PVP without making healers immortal.

    The lower ilvl is to stop people walking into raids much like they did throughout TBC and Wrath.
    The PvP changes for 5.3 looked great until they decided to nerf pvp power and resilience (now need 400 to get a 1% effect) and nerf the pvp gems.

    This means one will never gem/enchant for PvP power. It's far better to go for a primary stat instead. The pvp gems might as well have been removed from the game.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  15. #2815
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The PvP changes for 5.3 looked great until they decided to nerf pvp power and resilience (now need 400 to get a 1% effect) and nerf the pvp gems.

    This means one will never gem/enchant for PvP power. It's far better to go for a primary stat instead. The pvp gems might as well have been removed from the game.
    Because we'd soon end up with a 100% damage bonus against players as new seasons progress and so does gear and the burst could potentially end up retarded.

  16. #2816
    Quote Originally Posted by Ula View Post
    Because we'd soon end up with a 100% damage bonus against players as new seasons progress and so does gear and the burst could potentially end up retarded.
    My concern now is that LFR gear will be better than honor gear in instanced PvP. In that case, there will be almost zero gear incentive for casual PvP (maybe gearing up alts to get into T14 LFR with PvP gear). I do not expect much participation if that turns out to be the case.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  17. #2817
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    My concern now is that LFR gear will be better than honor gear in instanced PvP. In that case, there will be almost zero gear incentive for casual PvP (maybe gearing up alts to get into T14 LFR with PvP gear). I do not expect much participation if that turns out to be the case.
    Thats just not simply the case - PvP gear is still going to have the stats on it relevant to PvP, and the PvE geared player wont be able to dent a well equipped PvP player.

    The incentive to PvP has never been gear - its the climb on the ladder, the recognition, the prestige. Its nothing like PvE, spend any amount of time on a PvP fan site and you'll soon understand that.

  18. #2818
    Quote Originally Posted by Ula View Post
    The incentive to PvP has never been gear - its the climb on the ladder, the recognition, the prestige. Its nothing like PvE, spend any amount of time on a PvP fan site and you'll soon understand that.
    That's why I wrote casual PvP. If you're ok with BGs being mostly arena-geared characters and bots, maybe that doesn't bother you. But I suspect that's what went wrong with BGs in 5.0-5.2.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  19. #2819
    1.3 million people stoped enjoying the game so they stoped paying to play it, bam done simple.

  20. #2820
    Quote Originally Posted by Ula View Post
    Complete entitlement issue.

    As a personal example, i raid 6 - 8 hours a week max. My guild is currently 3/13 Heroic. I still have my "real" life too and if it started to suffer because of WoW, obviously i'd reduce hours / quit.

    I don't think the time investment is as large as you think.

    Another point is that you do not require extra character power if you're only running the raids in the LFR mode, and if you advanced to normal's than 502 is more than enough to clear normal ToT. They shouldn't remove the upgrade vendors in between patches though, the incentive to improve should continue to be there via valor.

    Nothing can reach PvP unless its a stupid trinket or legendary weapon, the gear is so accessible in PVP you cant complain.
    That's EXACTLY the problem. People who can successfully raid, get the best rewards and put in less time than casuals. That's turning things really on their heads.
    Why are you as far along as you are? Because you successfully raided in T14. And every tier the number of guilds starting is about half the number that can complete one boss and the number beating one boss in the next tier is about the same as those finishing the prior.

    If that trend holds, then there won't be any raiders to speak of in 2 or 3 raid patches.

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