1.3 million sub drop

[Deleted]

No it wasn't.

It was in Chris Metzen's mind. MOP was aimed at "casuals" or people who wouldn't normally play games. Do you think it worked?

Blizzard made a mistake. I just hope they learn from it.

Pokemon gives you nothing. Dailies give you nothing (unless you commit all the time and treat wow like a job).

Lol dude. The dailies took like 2 weeks or something. They were soloable. The problem is there were too many. TBC rep grinds on the other hand, required groups.

Scenarios give you nothing. Casual isn't just a matter of difficulty. Casual is a matter of time to reward investment. The game doesn't pay out for players who don't have all that time or frankly can't stomach the fucking girnd. They leave. In masses.

Good. I hope more "casuals" (i.e. bad lazy players) leave so that they stop dragging the game down to their level. They don't care about WoW anyway.

Also, if you don't have time for games then don't play. Effort should be rewarded.

I agree about guild raiding and I agree about 5 mans. However (and watch this cause this will really blow your mind) you could run 5 mans in consistent groups at higher difficulties AND STILL BE CASUAL.

Yes you could. I miss that about TBC. Magister's Terrace wasn't easy but it was rewarding. It was like a mini raid that you could do with your friends and feel like you accomplished something.

But "casuals" didn't want that. They wanted free loot for no effort. They were too lazy to make friends and too lazy to make tanks and healers and too lazy to find a player with crowd control.

Casual has less to do with being bad and more to do with your tolerance for grind and your "skill" as a player.

What they gave casuals was fucking MEANINGLESS IN THIS EXPANSION. In fact that's why people are up in arms about lfr not paying out and all this rng horseshit. It's the only casual content (and it's not all that casual if you spend an hour just waiting in que) they can run in a reasonable semblance of time that will pay out in epics BUT ROUTINELY DOESN'T. It's why loot protection is on it's way.

It was a bad expansion for everyone but making things even more "casual" isn't the answer. Keep in mind that "casual" has become synonymous with bad.

[Glorious Leader]

It was in Chris Metzen's mind. MOP was aimed at "casuals" or people who wouldn't normally play games. Do you think it worked?

Blizzard made a mistake. I just hope they learn from it.



Lol dude. The dailies took like 2 weeks or something. They were soloable. The problem is there were too many. TBC rep grinds on the other hand, required groups.



Good. I hope more "casuals" (i.e. bad lazy players) leave so that they stop dragging the game down to their level. They don't care about WoW anyway.

Also, if you don't have time for games then don't play. Effort should be rewarded.



Yes you could. I miss that about TBC. Magister's Terrace wasn't easy but it was rewarding. It was like a mini raid that you could do with your friends and feel like you accomplished something.

But "casuals" didn't want that. They wanted free loot for no effort. They were too lazy to make friends and too lazy to make tanks and healers and too lazy to find a player with crowd control.



It was a bad expansion for everyone but making things even more "casual" isn't the answer. Keep in mind that "casual" has become synonymous with bad.

So if your interest is appealing to your own vanity and trying to get some pathetic sense of achievement out of a video game. You can listen to this guys arguments. From that view point they are entirely reasonable.

If you interest is making wow more popular and more succesful again (and a fun game for a far larger chunk of it's player base) you should run from him like the black death. I hope hope hope the developers listen to him though. honestly I dearly and sincerly do. When the game tanks and goes f2p because they embrace every one dumb regressive idea these forums have we can at least finally put these notions to rest. Get rid of all of it. Flying mounts. LFR. LFD. Badge gear. Everything. and then make evrythign hard to. Give it to them. Please please please please. Then I can get some sleep when you people shut up and realize how dumb you were for even suggesting this crap in the first place.

Casuals are telling you the game isn't casual and they are telling Blizzard it isn't. That's why casuals aren't engaged. 2+2=4.

[Deleted]

So if your interest is appealing to your own vanity and trying to get some pathetic sense of achievement out of a video game. You can listen to this guys arguments. From that view point they are entirely reasonable.

If you interest is making wow more popular and more succesful ignore you should run from him like the black death. I hope hope hope the developers listen to you. honestly I dearly and sincerly do. When the game tanks and goes f2p because they embrace every one dumb regressive idea these forums have we can at least finally put these notions to rest.

Casuals are telling you the game isn't casual and they are telling Blizzard it isn't. That's why casuals aren't engaged. 2+2=4.

Casual means bad now, like I said. Bad players redefined the word.

I don't want the game being made for bad lazy players who don't care about the game. Blizzard did that with MOP and we all know the consequences.

[Deleted]

Everything has become meaningless because there is no community to share it with. No one in LFR cares if you worked hard or learned how to play your class. They don't know you and don't care and just want their welfare epics for no effort. Hardly anyone guild raids simply because it's easier to use LFR.

That's not casual enough?

Blizz need to make guild raiding more rewarding again. Make more 5 mans especially to encourage people to play together in consistent groups, and add a higher difficulty setting that isn't a race to the end that's also really rewarding.

You have your LFR now. Don't destroy the game even more.

So very true. The game isn't very fun for very long if you haven't got anyone to share it with.


The problem with daylies where the rewards locked away behind them. Blizzard even admitted that putting valor gear away behind them was stupid.

I remember back in TBC where people went for nether rays and netherwing dragons, now a days there are so many mounts it is somehow frecking ridicolous. So yea looking back once again I can also see another incentive to do those grinds. To get some other mount than a gryphon or wyvern. Would it work as well today perhaps not.

[Deleted]

It was in Chris Metzen's mind.

You made a mistake right there (actually, several). Metzen isn't a game systems developer, it's Blizzard's story director, so he decides nothing about how MoP plays or not.

Second, even with the Pandaren, MoP was always referred as a war lore expansion, which happens to be true. If people can't see beyond the "cuddly panda" cover, then I'm happy that they are gone, because they can't even grasp what is on the first page after the cover...

---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 04:41 PM ----------

Casual means bad now, like I said. Bad players redefined the word.

Nothing redefined the word, casual means what it is, casual.

[Faroth]

Honestly, at this point, I expect the next expansion to have a lot of the requests I see pop up from time to time.

Essentially, playing one character grants every alt everything.

Account wide rep
BoA tier tokens
Valor gear will be cheap as hell
Heroics will take less than 30 minutes, possibly not requiring a tank or healer
LFR will be nerfed so there are no mechanics (because "they take too long")
There will be no RNG, you will be guaranteed enough valor per LFR to buy 1-2 pieces of gear
New characters start at 90

These are all actual suggestions I've seen on the forums at one point or another. I said earlier, Blizzard uses nuclear weapons to deal with an ant hill. I see them going outright insanely extreme on how they open up the game to be "accessible" next expansion.

And honestly, if a "casual player" has no sense of accomplishment from a game, I have no clue why they're playing. When I was 10 freaking years old, you have any idea how good it felt to kill Bowser for the first time? Games are entirely about accomplishment and a sense of reward for your efforts. There's an entire psychology behind it. Human beings do things because of a sense of accomplishment, no matter how small or benign it might be. Players over in EQ2 spend hours decorating their housing. They wouldn't do that if they didn't feel some connection to it, some attachment to show off what they've done. They're proud of their unique designs, there's still a sense of accomplishment in acquiring the things to decorate and then presenting them. If there's no sense of accomplishment to progression, then that's the definition of zombie gaming. You have no reason or purpose to why you're doing what you're doing.....you're just doing it.

And since you mentioned your sig, GL.....wtf can't the hardcore content locusts (I like the term btw) have heroic mode while regular is designed for the majority of the players? Why does my raid need heroic mode nerfed to hell just so we can do it because we're not good enough to clear it as it is?

But you've literally got players who say LFR is too hard, despite 90% of all mechanics being able to be ignored and 1 wipe results in complete nerd rage and quitting the raid. You've also got complaints that LFR "takes too long" despite the fact you can clear 3 raids in under 3 hours with LFR. Can you imagine a PUG in Wrath clearing all of Naxx, Ulduar, and ToC in 3 hours?

[Glorious Leader]

So very true. The game isn't very fun for very long if you haven't got anyone to share it with.

And I agree players should have more social options. However solo play is not casual play and group play is not by definition hardcore play. It would be meaningless in th extreme to keep the current difficulties in normal/hardcore raiding as well as the current in game grind and expect players to keep staying in even with social relationship.

---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 03:44 PM ----------

Casual means bad now, like I said. Bad players redefined the word.

I don't want the game being made for bad lazy players who don't care about the game. Blizzard did that with MOP and we all know the consequences.

It was not made for those players. It was as always made for hardcores with all the time in the universe to invest. Casual is not synonymous with bad. It may mean players of less skill than say your heroic raider but that isn't the defining charectheristic of a casual player. The want to invest time and the stomach for grind is far more important. Mists is not an expansion designed for those players. It is an expansion designed to sate the desires of players who want "something to do" i.e content locusts who eat it up. And it failed tremendously. They sacrificed the casual experience to sate the desire of players who won't be sated anyway.

[Deleted]

And honestly, if a "casual player" has no sense of accomplishment from a game, I have no clue why they're playing. When I was 10 freaking years old, you have any idea how good it felt to kill Bowser for the first time? Games are entirely about accomplishment and a sense of reward for your efforts. There's an entire psychology behind it. Human beings do things because of a sense of accomplishment, no matter how small or benign it might be. Players over in EQ2 spend hours decorating their housing. They wouldn't do that if they didn't feel some connection to it, some attachment to show off what they've done. They're proud of their unique designs, there's still a sense of accomplishment in acquiring the things to decorate and then presenting them. If there's no sense of accomplishment to progression, then that's the definition of zombie gaming. You have no reason or purpose to why you're doing what you're doing.....you're just doing it.

It's the market that we live on right now. Just see the countless facebook and app games in the market, with great success. The "true" gaming market is on a fall right now, on both PC and consoles, and that hits everywhere.

[Glorious Leader]

And since you mentioned your sig, GL.....wtf can't the hardcore content locusts (I like the term btw) have heroic mode while regular is designed for the majority of the players? Why does my raid guild need heroic mode nerfed to hell just so we can do it because we're not good enough to clear it as it is?

We've had it bass ackwards as far as raiding is concerned for far to long. Normal and heroics cater CATER to above average raiders. Everone else is fucked. I think it's time to shift the balance and watch them squirm. The hammer comes down.

[Deleted]

Heroics will take less than 30 minutes, possibly not requiring a tank or healer

what heroic dungeons require tanks and healers wtf^^

[Glorious Leader]

And honestly, if a "casual player" has no sense of accomplishment from a game, I have no clue why they're playing. When I was 10 freaking years old, you have any idea how good it felt to kill Bowser for the first time? Games are entirely about accomplishment and a sense of reward for your efforts. There's an entire psychology behind it. Human beings do things because of a sense of accomplishment, no matter how small or benign it might be. Players over in EQ2 spend hours decorating their housing. They wouldn't do that if they didn't feel some connection to it, some attachment to show off what they've done. They're proud of their unique designs, there's still a sense of accomplishment in acquiring the things to decorate and then presenting them. If there's no sense of accomplishment to progression, then that's the definition of zombie gaming. You have no reason or purpose to why you're doing what you're doing.....you're just doing it.

I hate to ask but how do you know what one person feels accomplishment over another? Furthermore why do you think it's good to force your particular world view on the majority of the games population. What need do you have to do this? Games are not entirely about encomplishment. They are about relaxation. Reward is a function of this. But reward like anything else in this game is subjective and subject to a variety of interpretations. Currently casuals don't feel rewarded and don't feel like investing the time because well they haven't had the lure of gear to want them to do it. Nor do they care to. They must not be "true" gamers a distinction as empty and vacuous as they come.

I'm sorry I find this argument distasteful. It's patronizing in the extreme. But you know best right. If only Blizzard listened to you and made this game in your image. You can prattle on about your quaint values but in the end it doesn't matter. Don't call mists an attempt to appeal to casuals. It's not.

[Deleted]

I hate to ask but how do you know what one person feels accomplishment over another? Furthermore why do you think it's good to force your particular world view on the majority of the games population. What need do you have to do this? Games are not entirely about encomplishment. They are about relaxation. Reward is a function of this. But reward like anything else in this game is subjective and subject to a variety of interpretations. Currently casuals don't feel rewarded and don't feel like investing the time because well they haven't had the lure of gear to want them to do it. Nor do they care to. They must not be "true" gamers a distinction as empty and vacuous as they come.

I'm sorry I find this argument distasteful. It's patronizing in the extreme. But you know best right. If only Blizzard listened to you and made this game in your image.

How do you know that all casual do not feel any sense of accomplishment at all when achieving something that they have set as their goal?


And why is a sense of accomplishing something not a sense of reward?

earlier in the thread you talked about how you loved doing transmog runs, where those old sets and items where your reward, do you not feel a sense of accomplishment, when you finaly get that elusive last item that you have hunted for weeks?

[Faroth]

We've had it bass ackwards as far as raiding is concerned for far to long. Normal and heroics cater CATER to above average raiders. Everone else is fucked. I think it's time to shift the balance and watch them squirm. The hammer comes down.

I kinda thought the heroic mode, which is just a few additions to the raid that make it nutso hard, was pretty miniscule and therefore would be for them.

Normal should be, y'know, normal. For the average raider. And the below average raiders get picked up with the increasing buffs like ICC and Dragon Soul had, or the nerfs towards end of patch.

Honestly, I had a mage that refused to upgrade out of T9 until we were damn near on Lich King because he wouldn't upgrade until he was 4/4 Tier 10. I had a healer who wasn't good at moving...at all. A tank that was known as "the wall" because he stood there and tanked (in fire). Our DPS isn't phenomenal...MY DPS isn't phenomenal. I've NEVER thought my raid group was above average, they were just a hell of a fun group of players to play with. We cleared ICC before expansion ended (granted, with Varian's buff). We cleared Bastion of Twilight before patch came with only one night a week of raiding. We cleared Dragon Soul without the full Aspect buff.

I haven't been able to do normal MoP raiding due to players quitting (more because of children, money, and school btw), but from my experience....most of the normal 10 mans don't really need to be nerfed. If MoP's raids are crazy hard, then yeah, nerf them down to what an avg raid group should be able to do.

Maybe the solution is the next expansion needs more Classic WoW raids. Y'know, don't stand in fire but otherwise tank n' spank mechanics.

[Deleted]

I hate to ask but how do you know what one person feels accomplishment over another? Furthermore why do you think it's good to force your particular world view on the majority of the games population. What need do you have to do this? Games are not entirely about encomplishment. They are about relaxation. Reward is a function of this. But reward like anything else in this game is subjective and subject to a variety of interpretations. Currently casuals don't feel rewarded and don't feel like investing the time because well they haven't had the lure of gear to want them to do it. I'm sorry I find this argument distasteful. It's patronizing in the extreme. But you know best right. If only Blizzard listened to you and made this game in your image.

He is right, thought. I'm not saying that I agree with him or not, but the gaming paradigm did changed.

But is normal, gaming paradigms do change all the time, that is what people have to understand. A game that doesn't follow the society is bound to disappear. It's not because this content or that mechanic, it's about the society profile of each zone. That's why WoW lost it's appeal in Asia, the society there is so volatile and different from the West that is very hard to make a game that appeals both markets at the same time.

[Glorious Leader]

He is right, thought. I'm not saying that I agree with him or not, but the gaming paradigm did changed.

But is normal, gaming paradigms do change all the time, that is what people have to understand. A game that doesn't follow the society is bound to disappear. It's not because this content or that mechanic, it's about the society profile of each zone. That's why WoW lost it's appeal in Asia, the society there is so volatile and different from the West that is very hard to make a game that appeals both markets at the same time.

I'm not convinced of it. The gaming paradigm didn't change. Blizzards best games were games that were actually both entirely casual in terms of difficulty and play time. Diablo 2 is an excellent example of this. I could spend an hour chit chatting with my friends and getting bale runs and yes GET LOOT OUT OF IT. Same in sc as well. NR 20. Completely casual. Completely social. No achievement mentality needed.

[Faroth]

I hate to ask but how do you know what one person feels accomplishment over another? Furthermore why do you think it's good to force your particular world view on the majority of the games population. What need do you have to do this? Games are not entirely about encomplishment. They are about relaxation. Reward is a function of this. But reward like anything else in this game is subjective and subject to a variety of interpretations. Currently casuals don't feel rewarded and don't feel like investing the time because well they haven't had the lure of gear to want them to do it. Nor do they care to. They must not be "true" gamers a distinction as empty and vacuous as they come.

I'm sorry I find this argument distasteful. It's patronizing in the extreme. But you know best right. If only Blizzard listened to you and made this game in your image. You can prattle on about your quaint values but in the end it doesn't matter. Don't call mists an attempt to appeal to casuals. It's not.

Then what are they playing for? Why do they want gear? Why do they want progression? What's the point? Why do they give a rat's ass if they feel absolutely no value or accomplishment from it? Why would you play something that gives you no sense of reason for playing it?

Again, there's an entire psychology behind game design. It's part of getting a game design degree that you understand the psychology of effort/reward.

It doesn't have to be a challenge or difficult. 3 manning old raids and getting the last piece that perfects a transmog set is an accomplished goal. It feels good to look awesome. Would that be as cool if you just logged in, flew over to a vendor, and bought all the gear you wanted for the transmog set?

And yeah, sure, sometimes you do just want to zone out and not worry about what's going on. That's also kind of why going back and stomping old content is so fun.

But should the entire game be designed that way? I don't think so. There should be a varying degree across the spectrum of effort/reward. Sometimes the lesser effort goals are still rewarding.

Like I said before, was a PUG more fun in Wrath, or would LFR be more fun now if you were guaranteed gear? There was certainly more effort in Wrath PUGs than there is in LFR, but if gear is the only motivation, the LFR is the favored of the two, right?

[Deleted]

So very true. The game isn't very fun for very long if you haven't got anyone to share it with.


The problem with daylies where the rewards locked away behind them. Blizzard even admitted that putting valor gear away behind them was stupid.

I remember back in TBC where people went for nether rays and netherwing dragons, now a days there are so many mounts it is somehow frecking ridicolous. So yea looking back once again I can also see another incentive to do those grinds. To get some other mount than a gryphon or wyvern. Would it work as well today perhaps not.

If there were less daily factions but the dailies were harder, longer and much more rewarding, that might have worked. But the rewards would have to be truly epic and made to last to give people an incentive to work for them.

At the moment players can just wait for the next patch and do LFR.

You made a mistake right there (actually, several). Metzen isn't a game systems developer, it's Blizzard's story director, so he decides nothing about how MoP plays or not.

Second, even with the Pandaren, MoP was always referred as a war lore expansion, which happens to be true. If people can't see beyond the "cuddly panda" cover, then I'm happy that they are gone, because they can't even grasp what is on the first page after the cover...

---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 04:41 PM ----------



Nothing redefined the word, casual means what it is, casual.

Casual means bad now. Sorry bro. That's why I usually write "casual" in quotation marks.

Metzen would have known the direction of the game, and sorry but no one in their right mind associates pandas with medieval fantasy or conflict.

It was not made for those players. It was as always made for hardcores with all the time in the universe to invest. Casual is not synonymous with bad. It may mean players of less skill than say your heroic raider but that isn't the defining charectheristic of a casual player. The want to invest time and the stomach for grind is far more important. Mists is not an expansion designed for those players. It is an expansion designed to sate the desires of players who want "something to do" i.e content locusts who eat it up. And it failed tremendously. They sacrificed the casual experience to sate the desire of players who won't be sated anyway.

If you don't believe that pandas and pokemon were designed to appeal to "casuals" then I can't help you.

[Glorious Leader]

Then what are they playing for? Why do they want gear? Why do they want progression? What's the point? Why do they give a rat's ass if they feel absolutely no value or accomplishment from it? Why would you play something that gives you no sense of reason for playing it?

Again, there's an entire psychology behind game design. It's part of getting a game design degree that you understand the psychology of effort/reward.

It doesn't have to be a challenge or difficult. 3 manning old raids and getting the last piece that perfects a transmog set is an accomplished goal. It feels good to look awesome. Would that be as cool if you just logged in, flew over to a vendor, and bought all the gear you wanted for the transmog set?

because they had a hard fucking day at work and they want to progress their character a bit and see those numbers pop
because they want to drink and get some epics at the same time
because they WANT THE REWARD PART OF THEIR BRAIN TO BE FIRING LIKE CRACK ADDICTED MONKEYS
because they want to chill and have fun with their friends

NONE OF THAT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH ACHIEVEMENT because they don't care about whatever misguided sense of achievement you get out of a game. Their just looking for a fix. neurology and biology are what you should be looking at.

---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 03:59 PM ----------

If you don't believe that pandas and pokemon weren't designed to appeal to "casuals" then I can't help you.

The theme has nothing to do with the issue at hand and is a total non sequitor. Mists could be about large breasted demon slaying valkyrie and it would still not be casual friendly.

[Deleted]

Shared lockouts and overall Casualiazation killed this game.

[Deleted]

Casual means bad now. Sorry bro. That's why I usually write "casual" in quotation marks.

Casual is casual, not matter how many times you tell it otherwise. Even Blizzard refers to casual as players that play now and then.

Metzen would have known the direction of the game, and sorry but no one in their right mind associates pandas with medieval fantasy or conflict.

Then you have a complete off-the-track idea of what Warcraft is - a high fantasy lore game - and that Pandaren were one of the most asked playable races.

---------- Post added 2013-05-11 at 05:03 PM ----------

The theme has nothing to do with the issue at hand and is a total non sequitor. Mists could be about large breasted demon slaying vaklyrie and it would still not be casual friendly.

Precisely.