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  1. #861
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    SWTOR had over 2M in first 2 months after that it went down 1 Mill subs lol

    and the q1 report that just came in said they have 1.7mil subs, and 3mil f2p accounts... "LOL"


    On another note... I'd return to WOW if 3 things happen:

    1) FIRE GHOSTCRAWLER... The guy is cancer.

    2) Content other than dailys

    3) Return of talent trees
    Last edited by mrromo; 2013-05-10 at 08:22 PM.

  2. #862
    Quote Originally Posted by mimee View Post
    Of course they are losing subs..

    1 hour long queues for LFR.
    1 hour wasted killing bosses and all you get is bag of gold. *rinse - repeat next week same results*
    Everything having a horrible drop rate... SPecially mounts.

    And to fix the subs.. Maybe create Vanilla/BC servers? That would bring people back.


    Gotta agree with some of this. They push LFR so hard now but 4 separate queues for Throne of Thunder means 4 hours of waiting just to raid (if you are lucky). 2/3 queues for me personally requires me to queue twice for the same place b/c I get put in on the 3rd boss, therefore requiring me to requeue to do bosses 1&2.

    I do okay on loot. Some weeks I get some and some I do not. This entire expansion though has seen my struggling to get the 4th piece of a tier set on any toon.

    I have yet to see a mount drop on any new boss in MoP.


    While I would love vanilla/TBC servers as that was my favorite time playing the game, it's not going to happen. Might be fun though.

  3. #863

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by mrromo View Post
    3) Return of talent trees
    What is it with you people and talent trees!? Did you like wasting points on useless talents you never used out of pve or pvp just to reach that one necessary skill (the Hunter trees were loaded with piss awful talents)!? Both systems have cookie-cutter builds, but if you're telling me the old system was great, I guess you forgot the days of, "U BETAR HHEV 0/5/33 OR GTFO MY GAEM U FACKEN FAGIT NUB." I don't miss those days, and I like having more options for my class that aren't useless.

    You know most of those old talent trees were useless even for pve and pvp in older xpacs, right? Do I have to remind anyone how awful MM Huntards, Sublety Rogues, Retardins, Non-Afflic Locks, certain Mage builds, and Laser Chickens were WITH the old system depending on the expansion (some of the branches still have problems)? Yes, the new talent system kinda sucks (there are a lot of useless choices), but you're stupid to think the old system was perfect.

  4. #864
    Quote Originally Posted by Avelein View Post
    To make sure, most of sub cancels are from Asia, so blizzard just lose alot of gold farmers (there were about 400k gold farmer accounts about year ago). And there has came ALOT new good games, so people has move on.
    To be honest we don't even know how the subscription numbers are based (how much of a % does Asia account for all WoW subscriptions?) and how large a % of "most subs from Asia" is it from the total? I often think it's just thrown in to soothe the statistic, and it's usually a sign WoW is falling in terms of popularity in some continents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avelein View Post
    This ain't end of wow, it's still 8.3 MILLION Subs!
    A million subs lost is still a lot of customer support laid off, a ton of income lost and an alarming statistic in the business world. For instance, what else does it say? It says that it's becoming a fact that WoW has reached its peak in subscriptions, that the subscriptions tend to drop faster after every expansion and that Blizzard is gradually beginning to put weight on their newer games.

    I don't think the end of WoW will ever come---at least not in another 10-20 years. There might come a point where the game goes F2P (at least to some degree) instead of releasing expansions on a yearly basis.

  5. #865
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrromo View Post
    and the q1 report that just came in said they have 1.7mil subs, and 3mil f2p accounts... "LOL"
    Source please?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 11:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Orkwuzhere View Post
    What is it with you people and talent trees!? Did you like wasting points on useless talents you never used out of pve or pvp just to reach that one necessary skill (the Hunter trees were loaded with piss awful talents)!? Both systems have cookie-cutter builds, but if you're telling me the old system was great, I guess you forgot the days of, "U BETAR HHEV 0/5/33 OR GTFO MY GAEM U FACKEN FAGIT NUB." I don't miss those days, and I like having more options for my class that aren't useless.
    Old system was totally cookie-cutter indeed. Except some points, you could figure out without actually playing the game. Garbage.
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  6. #866
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogrim View Post
    In trying to make the content last longer for hardcore players, Blizzard has made a design that creates walls for progression---but a wall is more than just a stop, it also marks a continuing linear line on your character progression.
    Again, valor isn't for hardcore players. You buy 1-3 pieces of gear, and forget about it. In 5.3 they'll allow you to upgrade gear again, to make valor valuable for hardcore players. Casuals if smart, will not waste valor on upgrading gear, but buying new gear.

    Just because you don't personally see the problem with a game that has so many caps built into its design (not just the valor cap bear in mind---I quit when the only thing I really enjoyed was farming older raid instances for transmogrification gear and it felt like I was paying to roll the slot machine once a week) doesn't mean it's not a major reason we're seeing a decline in subscriptions. The game has many problems, but players constantly hitting walls (whether it be gated content, reputation quests, valor caps, weekly lockouts, etc) has become one of the most common reasons players look to games that doesn't focus on *restricting* what they want to do.
    When Justice Points were introduced in TBC, no progressing guild liked the idea of casuals farming justice points to gear up, that was relatively equal to raiding gear. Some pieces were best in slot, but otherwise overall bad reaction from raiders.

    Do I agree with the cap? No, because it's to force you to pay subscription. Understand though no raider, or hardcore player, cares about valor. Blizzard noticed, and introduced the upgrade vendor. Upgrade your gear by a measly 8 ilevels. For progression guilds, this is a must. It gets players back into dungeons and scenarios, which btw once you got the gear you need, you'll never want to step foot in there again.

    It is a casual issue, and a minor one at that. I'm surprised nobody is angry about Justice Points, seeing as they're useless. Should just be removed from the game.

  7. #867
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    Yeah, the last content patch for football (soccer) was really great. New maps, new mechanics.

    Maybe you could figure out on your own why your example fails, hard.
    You might have missed the main point. Sports endure without content patches because they are fun. You don't need new content to keep people playing. Starcraft 1 and Diablo 2 didn't have updates for like a decade and were great because they were fun. Now that it's been spelled out for you, maybe you can figure out the point that is being made.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 05:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Avelein View Post
    To make sure, most of sub cancels are from Asia, so blizzard just lose alot of gold farmers (there were about 400k gold farmer accounts about year ago). And there has came ALOT new good games, so people has move on.

    This ain't end of wow, it's still 8.3 MILLION Subs!

    Lemme shw you, if I have 12million euros, and I spend 3,7million, am I poor with only having 8.3million euros?
    If you've burned through roughly a third of your wealth in 1-2 years, you're definitely headed that way. I think McHammer would have outperformed you =-p

  8. #868
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    I think the neglect regarding some classes and speccs has a lot to do with some quitting the game. Players simply get tired of waiting for attention and fixes that should've been done perhaps years ago. Figured out my specc yet? Hpriest. We've been the same since WotLK pretty much with useless spells, no good utility and not even good output, poor scaling and very low % of healing roles and very much overshadowed by Disc and other healingclasses. I have patients. Lots of it, cause I did stick to the specc, never been interested in Disc, Shadow or changing main. But I feel it's really getting to me after all these years, we pay and play and we are a lot of dedicated, very skilled main Hpriests who pointed out what is wrong and what could be done, but no attention. "Holy Priests are fine", yet most of us were forced to play Disc more than our MS the last years.

    They were talking about removing PoH as a groupbased spells years ago. Lightwell was a pain for years before the redesign. Chakra have made most Holy miserable since it's release in WotLK. I could go on and on.

    I agree Blizzard should reconsider their employed lead designers. I don't buy the "We need more designers/devs/programmers, but don't want to hire just anybody". GC's lack of understanding the classes, yet pretending he knows everything is getting very old by now.

    I think to get players back they need to rly get on their toes balancing each specc/class and make small adjustments much more often. I would also love to see something completly new besides the usual dungeon, raids and quests. Scenarios just fell flat. I think hc scenarios will aswell. Challange mode is nothing exciting. Pet battles... meh. Dailys........puke! VP req reputation, again... more puke.

    We need big and epic. A real adventure. Perhaps longlasting world events involving all players (remember the zombie invasion etc?). Perhaps real guildwars. Guilds gets their own area in the world but can be attacked by other guilds? Now that would make even me interested in PvP..lol.

    Some raids, new quests and dungeons isn't enough to feed the WoW players anymore.

  9. #869
    Quote Originally Posted by Merp View Post
    If you need to ask me which other online games are offering free, quality content at a faster rate than WoW you just really need to stick your head out of WoW and look around at the current online gaming market. It's pretty obvious.

    If you claim that the flow of content is not part of the WoW problem, you didn't read Blizzard's official document which is the object of this discussion. The irony is that you are posing like the informed and toughtful one. Ironic, really.

    If you don't understand how your attitude is damaging the game, I am afraid there's no alternative to you keep damaging the game.

    That said, I am certainly not going to add anything more, because the rest is basically just a sad list of insults you trow at me, and I am far too old and I care far too little about this stuff to put myself on that embarassing level. This is the reason why I instead wish you a nice day. May you enjoy your game that "will never die". Until it dies, obviously.
    Was expecting someone (you) having a debate would use sources when making claims and stating facts wrong? not sure what's worse, the fact I assumed you would be able to hold an educated discussion or that you could even support your baseless claims.

    No, content flow is not causing loss of subs, more and cheaper forms of competition are. Also, wrong usage of the word irony. There is nothing ironic about you claiming your own opinions as facts and assuming your post is the informative one. Let alone the fact you obviously didn't even read their official response which is a reword of the aforementioned.

    Again, studying the industry and the game followed by intellectual and realistic feedback to developers is damaging the game? Perhaps I should take your "noble" approach of regurgitating madeup statistics and contingencies while taking information out of context to support negative claims and opinions.

    Stop getting offended. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean you have to get all emotional. If you can't handle a little debating don't post disagreeing. Keep it to yourself. But, honestly I don't think you mean what you say as I do think you are somewhat curious and while I might not know everything, and while you should not get offended at this--if you continue to study the trends and information here I am sure you can learn a lot about what is to come. The game has been cast as dying for YEARS... By sheer chance alone my claim is more probable than yours given the game's history. Do you have any idea how DIFFICULT it would be to have this game completely DIE. Lets say they lost all their subs tomorrow, don't you think they would make it go F2P or develope some other new transaction method to encourage people to play? You are talking about money mogools, multi billion dollar investors and marketing GENIUSES.... seriously think about what you are saying...

  10. #870
    Ding Dong the witch is dead :P

  11. #871
    dailies ruined the game for many. worst casual player expansion ever, thats what happens...

  12. #872
    Yeah, one of those subscribers was me! My guild collapsed and I just don't have the time or energy to find a new one, considering this is like the 5th time it's happened to me over the years. Anyway, my coursework will thank me for the quit

  13. #873
    Quote Originally Posted by Bogrim View Post
    "Casual" doesn't mean "easy". A casual player is a player with limited time span. If a hardcore raider became a father and had to limit his playing time to a few hours a week, would you think trivial content is the target goal to entertain this player?
    Within the casual group there is a big portion that want insta gratification though, hence why they both are bunched up by a lot of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogrim View Post
    A design with casual players in mind has affected and benefited you far more than you realize, so don't cry witch because you look for an easy target to blame. The kind of changes a casual player design brought about was the reduced time it takes to run a dungeon (think about the amount of trash mobs you had to go through in Molten Core vs the amount of trash mobs in an instance like MSV), as well as reduced instance and raid sizes for easier to manage raid events (vanilla: 40 man vanilla raids -> tbc: 25 man raids + a few 10 man raids -> wrath: 25 + 10 man raids but 25 man still better -> cata: all raid sizes equal).
    You assume all those things are actually good, for me you just mentioned some of the things I think Blizzard did wrong evolving the game...you might not like it but dungeons that took 45 minutes ment you had something to do in game, 25 and 10 man being on separate lockouts meant you had more content if you wanted to play a lot, not to mention how epic 40 man raids where, although doubt it would work to go back to 40man raids today so I'll give you that one.

    So no, those changes didn't benefit me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bogrim View Post
    It's interesting to notice that WoW reaches its subscription milestone in Wrath, and everything since then has been going downwards---meaning no changes since Wrath has made the WoW player base grow.
    Actually it reached it at the end of TBC already, Wrath sales might have pushed it up a couple of hundred thousand for a month but that's about it, only time after that it's been back to the end of TBC numbers is the month Cata was launched.

  14. #874
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Crookids View Post
    Punctuation is your friend.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 02:54 PM ----------



    You're asking WoW to become a niche product. Niche does not perform well on a massive scale. I think they are doing a great job at becoming a jack of all trades with content for everyone while (now) delving back to their roots of challenging and rewarding content.

    If everyone would just wake up and realize the game is ALWAYS growing and not all things you want wont necessarily work and there are things you thought you might not want, but actually enjoy if you give it a try--there wouldn't be so much hate and pecimism. The problem is everyone wants what they want NOW and then when they get it, complain it was too easy to get stripping the essence of reward and uniqueness. I used to think achievements were a waste of time but now I love them. I find too often people are complaining about things just to do so without having any bases to argue or experience to reference. Such as my earlier post proving there is an immense amount of community content that people simply don't acknowledge.

    Get out there, try new things, compete in difficult content, gauge your performance and compare yourself on the plethora of resources which enable you to test your limits.

    These argument remind me of the days of addon threads and dmg meter arguments. People just want to point a figure and complain instead of focusing on how to enjoy themselves and get better.
    How is having a direction the same as a having a niche? Nothing I said remotely resembled me suggesting WoW becoming a niche. I think you need to look up the word. But fyi, niche products can scale. Also, 8.3 million users is not massive scale in technology.

    You have clearly misunderstood all my points and you're stating nonsensical arguments. You're trying to make it look like you're saying something, but you're not. You're making a point that you should be able to find pleasure in everything... duh? You're making a point that the game is growing, who's arguing that the game is not growing? We're speculating how the game is growing. Not whether it's growing or not.

    And for your information, I've never cared about the difficulty of the game. My complains stem from Blizzard eliminating social aspects of the game and raid progression. Don't act like difficulty is the only thing people are complaining about, just because it's the most well known complaint. If you think about it, you're agreeing with me. You're saying too many people are complaining and everyone can't get what they want, which is exactly why I suggested that Blizzard stops listening to users who don't know how to develop games. Blizzard is a professional game developing company, we all know they can create what people want, just look at all of their previous releases.

    "Get out there, try new things, compete in difficult content, gauge your performance and compare yourself on the plethora of resources which enable you to test your limits."
    ^ This has been true since the release of vanilla. I'll explain to you in baby terms, just in case: There's 5 different activities that people enjoy at release of vanilla, 8-10 years later there's 7 activities but they have slightly changed. Players can still explore and try to find pleasure in them, but since they have changed, they might or might not be as pleasurable anymore. It's subjective. People are not arguing that there are no options, people are arguing that the options aren't as enjoyable.

  15. #875
    Quote Originally Posted by Designed View Post
    How is having a direction the same as a having a niche? Nothing I said remotely resembled me suggesting WoW becoming a niche. I think you need to look up the word. But fyi, niche products can scale. Also, 8.3 million users is not massive scale in technology.

    You have clearly misunderstood all my points and you're stating nonsensical arguments. You're trying to make it look like you're saying something, but you're not. You're making a point that you should be able to find pleasure in everything... duh? You're making a point that the game is growing, who's arguing that the game is not growing? We're speculating how the game is growing. Not whether it's growing or not.

    And for your information, I've never cared about the difficulty of the game. My complains stem from Blizzard eliminating social aspects of the game and raid progression. Don't act like difficulty is the only thing people are complaining about, just because it's the most well known complaint. If you think about it, you're agreeing with me. You're saying too many people are complaining and everyone can't get what they want, which is exactly why I suggested that Blizzard stops listening to users who don't know how to develop games. Blizzard is a professional game developing company, we all know they can create what people want, just look at all of their previous releases.

    "Get out there, try new things, compete in difficult content, gauge your performance and compare yourself on the plethora of resources which enable you to test your limits."
    ^ This has been true since the release of vanilla. I'll explain to you in baby terms, just in case: There's 5 different activities that people enjoy at release of vanilla, 8-10 years later there's 7 activities but they have slightly changed. Players can still explore and try to find pleasure in them, but since they have changed, they might or might not be as pleasurable anymore. It's subjective. People are not arguing that there are no options, people are arguing that the options aren't as enjoyable.
    The first paragraph was for you. The rest, I was speaking generally in the thread. However, I can see where it would seem I was addressing you and for that I apologize. I actually agree with most of your points.

    Nevertheless, a niche is exactly what you are saying. I took the liberty of looking up the word as you demanded and I urge you to read it.
    a : a place, employment, status, or activity for which a person or thing is best fitted <finally found her niche>

    You are asking the game to find a direction and stick with it. Even on a broad scale, like targeting a specific demographic like 'casual players'--that becomes the game's niche. Even using such a broad example, you can see how a game/genre meant to last can force self limitation. When products become too targeted they lose the possibility of gaining customers and players if they broadened their horizons. You also contradict yourself by saying a niche can grow because that is exactly what WoW has done. It started out being a game for MMO fans by bringing together all the things people loved from titles like EQ and Ultima Online and sprinkled a bit of innovation. Now it has become a game almost any gamer can enjoy, not just a MMO fan.
    Last edited by Crookids; 2013-05-11 at 05:13 AM.

  16. #876
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Source please?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 11:50 PM ----------



    Old system was totally cookie-cutter indeed. Except some points, you could figure out without actually playing the game. Garbage.
    Actually, it was very easy to mess up your specs with the old tree (thank god for respecs). Just look back at all of the terrible Hunter builds up til the end of BC or the beginning of Wrath (no one really knew how to really play the game up til BC/Wrath out of poopsock raiders/pvp players).

    Both methods force you to pick crappy talents, but there were more garbage talents you just couldn't skip with the old tree. Old school Hunters had to pick from a crappy trap talent that never proc'd or go for some pvp skill that didn't help them....even in pvp...for 2-3 expansions. Then you had left over points that weren't worth using. Rogues and Druids had a lot of terrible talent choices too (Moonkin was still scoffed at til Cata, and Combat dominated Sub for a while).

    I don't miss wasting 2-3 out of 25 points to get a crappy skill like Silencing Shot (I hated this shot on my old Huntard, and again, Hunters had a bunch of terrible talents).

  17. #877
    Thinking that you "waste" points in a talent tree just shows that you are looking at it the wrong way, the choices are not each talent you put in but key once and the "wasted" is the road there representing minor choices.

    While WoW's version of talent trees had it's issues most of them was due to lack of options to chose from and as such the solution would be to introduce more choices, not less. Best game I played so far over the past decade as far as talents goes is Path of Exile which has 120 talent points to spend on over 1300 nodes...now that's choice.

  18. #878
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    Quote Originally Posted by mimee View Post
    Of course they are losing subs..

    1 hour long queues for LFR.
    1 hour wasted killing bosses and all you get is bag of gold. *rinse - repeat next week same results*
    Everything having a horrible drop rate... SPecially mounts.

    And to fix the subs.. Maybe create Vanilla/BC servers? That would bring people back.
    I don't even... The hypocrisy leaks from every pore of this post. 3 hours spent on trash, 3 hours spent in a dungeon with 40 people, you don't even get gold. epic riding was expensive.

    Not really sure what you want, free stuff, or stupid hard stuff. But that's the player base these days. Its too hard -And- too easy
    It was never Hardcore Vs Casual. It was Socialites Vs. Solo players
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game.

  19. #879
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcanasm View Post
    Rep gating is one of the decisions I consider short-sighted and bad. Great idea for a month. Really bad if the people who lack 20 hours a week are *expected* to do 20 hours a week of *dailies*.

    As for the game engine: What's the last other MMO you played? Because I've only seen one MMO since WoW with worse graphics, and that was 6 years ago (Dark and Light -- you've never heard of it, it was awful and it's gone now). In most recent MMOs -- GW2, Rift, ToRtanic, even AoC -- game visuals on "Low" exceed WoW on "Ultra". The only category where WoW wins is color depth, but that's hard to care about when your game models all look like 80s cartoons.
    The cartoonish nature of WoW has always been their aesthetic. I've played both SWTOR and GW2. Their graphics didn't "exceed" MoP in any area.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq1aXvXhqMI

    Vs...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnKetq8aPI4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feQbXKcDsSc
    Last edited by Dolus; 2013-05-11 at 07:58 AM.

  20. #880
    Quote Originally Posted by Binki View Post
    I disagree with that. No flying mounts and no rep tabards are improvement, not step backwards.

    With flying mounts sense of danger is gone, resulting in most boring content ever and people would quit faster than they are quitting now.

    While reputation via dailies is a horrible solution, tabards is even worse solution because it makes reputations meaningless. There should be way to get reputation other than dailies, but not with tabards. Selecting rep for 1 dungeon run per day works great. It wouldn't be an issue at all if valor gear wasn't tied to reputations, which I think it the biggest mistake with new rep grinds.

    I think main problem why WoW is losing players is death of realm communities and social interaction. When WoW was young, it wasn't about most efficient way to reward, it was about having fun with other players. That's what made it successful game. Now its all gone. Game is focused on single player in 90% of content (LFD/LFR counts as single player content because other players are random strangers you'll never see that could as well be replaced with NPCs) and tiny groups on the rest of content.
    Like I said its not a bad thing for our main to go through the content without flying, But when I'm leveling my uptenth alt, the content has been seen, the danger has been felt, and for all intents and purposes I just want my alt to 90 so I can do other content with him. What I'm saying is they screwed up by not COMPROMISING. They did it in wrath, and it worked wonders there (remember the level 80 heirloom that let you fly) even if they added it late in the expac.

    As for rep, regardless of weather the rep from tabards is bad or not is irrelevant. It has been stated previously that if they add a way to do something easier and then take it away the player base feels jipped. This is not inaccurate, which is why I personally think they should just meet us halfway. Let some of the lower tier reps be Dungeonable (like golden lotus), but let Like shado-pan and stuff require dailies. Vanity reps, say for the dragon riding skill should be daily only as well. I would see no issue with the rep from dungeons being capped at the limit you would get from doing dailies either.

    As far as the dungeon finder being the cause, I also disagree. Especially for low pop realms. I remember a time when it took hours to get a group to go dungeon running, and even then you would still play with people who either are new too the game or are so bad it makes your brain hurt. This is NOT a healthy model for a game of WoW's size. What I will say is this, The DF and LFR SHOULD group you with people from your own realm as a priority over other realms, but it shouldn't be forced too.

    It started way before that, back towards the end of Wrath when they started to cater more and more to a more casual crowd that wanted any and all conveniences, so the player base changed and now the very same casual players can "finish" the game in a couple of weeks and unsubscribe to move on to the flavor of the month MMO and complete that while they wait for new content to be added.

    Blizzard mostly did this to them selfs by discarding one player base for a larger but more fickle one.
    Wrath was the ultimate compromise, wrath was when casuals got to play the game, while there was still elitist content. As such wrath was the expac with the best numbers. Flip to Cata, Cata was Blizzard catering to the most fickle player on the game the special snowflake or the elitist, not the silent elitist mind you, but the wannabe's that cover both forums here and there. Everything was a jump in difficulty for lower end content, While for me this was not a bad thing as I was capable of handling the content with my guild. I could see how it would have been alienating to players who only played for a few hours a week, and then looked what happened, the subscriptions dropped like a rock, and blizzard rushed out the rest of the expac making it a terrible mess save for Ragnaros which was the best encounter in the whole expac.

    Now jump to panda, we are back to the wrath model on dungeons oh look subscribers jumped up a bit! Wait we are going backwards with grinding because the elitist think that our grind needs to be like BC, oh hello our subs are going down again. Sad to say elitists only take up a small percent the so called casual plays much much more, but as always I've been a fan of compromise, and when blizzard did its compromising the game was the healthiest its ever been. It's not difficult to figure out.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is Neither side is wrong or right, and that just means we should comprimise.
    Last edited by Nefroz; 2013-05-11 at 08:02 AM.

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