Not using Rupture

[Grimmfang]

I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing it. I'm a combat rogue and when I use Rupture in my rotation, I see worse numbers than without it. Here's a link to my wow-heroes along with attached logs. Can someone tell me if I'm doing something wrong or if not using Rupture can actually be a dps increase?

http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/...r%C3%ACmmfang/

[theherecy]

Couldn't find one instance of you using rupture.. please link a log.

[Grimmfang]

Couldn't find one instance of you using rupture.. please link a log.

I'm sorry, I phrased that wrong. I stopped using rupture a while back because I could never get higher numbers versus leaving it out of rotation. On a target dummy, I average 10k less over a 5 minute period using Rupture, just not getting it.

[Squirl]

I'm having trouble finding logs where you actually use Rupture. If you can find a good one where you used Rupture and another of the same fight where you did not use it, that would help.

As far as Rupt vs Evisc, Rupt just does more damage now. But:

1. It has to tick for the entire duration
2. You can't clip it
3. It's a loss during BF

You should also prefer putting it up with Deep Insight (it snapshots Insight last I checked) because putting it up at Shallow Insight will usually prevent an application at Deep Insight. It's still more damage at any Insight, but it's more more damage at Deep Insight (if that makes sense).

That said, it's a small gain when done perfectly and a loss when done incorrectly. It's perfectly fine to ignore it.

[Grimmfang]

I'm having trouble finding logs where you actually use Rupture. If you can find a good one where you used Rupture and another of the same fight where you did not use it, that would help.

As far as Rupt vs Evisc, Rupt just does more damage now. But:

1. It has to tick for the entire duration
2. You can't clip it
3. It's a loss during BF

You should also prefer putting it up with Deep Insight (it snapshots Insight last I checked) because putting it up at Shallow Insight will usually prevent an application at Deep Insight. It's still more damage at any Insight, but it's more more damage at Deep Insight (if that makes sense).

That said, it's a small gain when done perfectly and a loss when done incorrectly. It's perfectly fine to ignore it.

That's a bit of what I'm confused on. Is it worth it to let it tick off at shallow and wait for deep? Should I try to have 100 percent uptime on it? Is it worth refreshing 5-8 seconds before it runs off if deep insight is about to wear off?

[Neazy]

^ Unless it was changed recently rupture doesn't take a snapshot. It updates dynamically. That means you should just evis during deep insight, but use rupture any other time.

[Grimmfang]

^ Unless it was changed recently rupture doesn't take a snapshot. It updates dynamically. That means you should just evis during deep insight, but use rupture any other time.

I'm still confused on what actually snapshots. Does KS? Instead of opening another thread, I have a couple of other nit picky questions if you don't mind?

1. My opening rotation is Ambush>RvS>SS>SS>SS>KS>SnD>AR My haste being over 40 percent, I find it extremely quick to get to 6 combo points to hit shallow insight. I KS at shallow then use SnD after rather than before KS to gain a couple extra seconds on SnD. Is there something fundamentally wrong with my approach to this?
2. Is there a final verdict on using AR/SB during hero rather than not with the high amount of haste I have and energy capping quite easily?

[Squirl]

^ Unless it was changed recently rupture doesn't take a snapshot. It updates dynamically. That means you should just evis during deep insight, but use rupture any other time.

It appears to snapshot it...

[23:51:52.145] Squirlness gains Deep Insight from Squirlness
[23:51:54.618] Squirlness casts Rupture on Arcane Head
[23:51:54.968] Arcane Head afflicted by Rupture from Squirlness
[23:51:57.001] Squirlness Rupture Arcane Head *17088*
[23:51:58.977] Squirlness Rupture Arcane Head 8544
[23:52:00.985] Squirlness Rupture Arcane Head 8544
[23:52:02.978] Squirlness Rupture Arcane Head *17089*
[23:52:04.994] Squirlness Rupture Arcane Head *17088*
[23:52:06.991] Squirlness Rupture Arcane Head 8545
[23:52:07.146] Squirlness's Deep Insight fades from Squirlness
[23:52:08.998] Squirlness Rupture Arcane Head 8544
[23:52:10.974] Squirlness Rupture Arcane Head 8544
[23:52:11.505] Squirlness gains Shallow Insight from Squirlness
[23:52:12.969] Squirlness Rupture Arcane Head 8545
[23:52:13.529] Squirlness's Shallow Insight is refreshed by Squirlness
[23:52:14.330] Squirlness's Shallow Insight is refreshed by Squirlness
[23:52:14.989] Squirlness Rupture Arcane Head 8544
[23:52:15.528] Squirlness's Shallow Insight is refreshed by Squirlness
[23:52:16.990] Squirlness Rupture Arcane Head 8544
[23:52:18.769] Squirlness's Shallow Insight fades from Squirlness
[23:52:18.769] Squirlness gains Moderate Insight from Squirlness
[23:52:18.981] Squirlness Rupture Arcane Head *17089*
[23:52:20.983] Squirlness Rupture Arcane Head *17089*
[23:52:22.987] Squirlness Rupture Arcane Head 8544
[23:52:22.987] Squirlness's Rupture fades from Arcane Head

---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 03:13 PM ----------

I'm still confused on what actually snapshots. Does KS? Instead of opening another thread, I have a couple of other nit picky questions if you don't mind?

1. My opening rotation is Ambush>RvS>SS>SS>SS>KS>SnD>AR My haste being over 40 percent, I find it extremely quick to get to 6 combo points to hit shallow insight. I KS at shallow then use SnD after rather than before KS to gain a couple extra seconds on SnD. Is there something fundamentally wrong with my approach to this?
2. Is there a final verdict on using AR/SB during hero rather than not with the high amount of haste I have and energy capping quite easily?

1. I would open Amb > SnD > RvS > SS, etc. and use KSp as soon as doing so won't energy cap you. Once that's over, blow AR+SB. You want SnD rolling because KSp also buffs any other damage you're doing by 50% for the duration, and you do continue to white hit, proc poisons, and proc mastery while KSping. You want to KSp before AR+SB so that the increased RB frequency (finisher frequency) during AR+SB also applies to KSp. You also never want to KSp during AR because you will for sure energy cap severely.
2. I haven't seen any actual math on this, but I blow AR+SB during hero if they happen to line up. Hero+SB auto attacks is pretty powerful on its own, and delaying a cooldown as Combat is pretty huge. It's 35s+10s per Rupt/Evisc for hero, which could easily result in one less AR+SB during the fight. Do not delay AR+SB for hero though.

[Kael]

I'm still confused on what actually snapshots. Does KS? Instead of opening another thread, I have a couple of other nit picky questions if you don't mind?

1. My opening rotation is Ambush>RvS>SS>SS>SS>KS>SnD>AR My haste being over 40 percent, I find it extremely quick to get to 6 combo points to hit shallow insight. I KS at shallow then use SnD after rather than before KS to gain a couple extra seconds on SnD. Is there something fundamentally wrong with my approach to this?
2. Is there a final verdict on using AR/SB during hero rather than not with the high amount of haste I have and energy capping quite easily?

Rupture snaps. The difference between rupture and evis, as damaging finishers go, is not so high that you should likely invest effort in figuring out what downtime windows support holding off reapplying rupture until higher insight - if you've got any questions at all left other than that, they're more important. Just replace evis with rupture when rupture is not on your target, your target will take damage to the end of rupture, and you don't have flurry on.

1. SnD is being seriously undervalued in your opener. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-combat-rogues has slightly more detail on it, albeit without much discussion. KS doesn't stop melee attacks, and missing out on all that juicy attack speed at any point in the fight is a no-no. I suspect using SnD as your first ability post-Ambush is ahead, but I'm not running the sims to check atm.
@Squirl's comment on 1: KSp also has a set duration, and with a .5s GCD, you're missing a LOT of attacks to fit KSp in.

2. I don't think there was a "final verdict," but more a wishy-washy "hold if it comes off CD at the very very end of Hero/Lust." Anyone can feel free to correct me here, we haven't talked combat seriously in a while. A huge portion of the gain from AR/SB is auto-attack damage, and that stacks multiplicatively with more haste from all sources.

On another note - you mention energy capping and high haste often: for values of haste at which you're energy capped for a period of time, all the same principles of normal play aside, only DPEnergy gives way to DPCast. Being energy capped is not a DPS loss - trying to save energy when capped is. There's a difference. Avoiding the energy cap isn't the end-goal; maximizing damage is.

[shadowboy]

Mugajack:

For sake of argument. If you have enough haste to where you are capping energy a lot, the value of haste drops by ~40%. And the secondary stats are close enough that at that point, mastery comes ahead.

The opportunity cost is NOT "whether or not you use every global available to you," as is commonly perceived. The opportunity cost is what stat you could have put that haste in to prevent energy capping.

It goes like this:

Haste gives more energy, point for point than mastery, but mastery gives more damage point-for-point than haste. Once you start capping energy, haste loses some of the energy portion of its value and mastery becomes a more valuable stat. During AR, mastery is probably more damage, point-for-point, but outside of AR, haste probably is. Since most of your time is spent outside of AR/SB (and most of your damage, for that matter), haste still wins, overall.

OP: 1 log is not enough to make a determination which is more. Nor is 100. 1000 is getting better, but I highly doubt you're going to spend 20 years farming the same boss. Trust in theorycraft.

[Neazy]

It appears to snapshot it...

My mistake. In that case you should always keep up rupture then.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry, I phrased that wrong. I stopped using rupture a while back because I could never get higher numbers versus leaving it out of rotation. On a target dummy, I average 10k less over a 5 minute period using Rupture, just not getting it.

It really depends on the fight. On a fight like Jin'rokh I wouldn't be caught dead not using it but Megaera & Council it honestly depends on the situation, you can see more details from my logs if you wish too.

http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/...ermoon/tiitch/

[Kael]

-haste vs. mastery discussion

I was talking about ability choice, and whether or not using an ability will cap you. That is absolutely valid information about stat weights, however. In the action space of comparing two abilities, one of which will cap you on energy and one will not, you use whichever does more damage, regardless of possibly capping (like Killing Spree over SS with Lei's Hope or something, when you'd just be sitting on the CD at a damage loss, because you're energy capped).

The opportunity cost of an attack - in fight - when energy capped is the GCD you spend on it, but gets mistaken for being a DPS loss by virtue of existing at the energy cap, which I suspect is why we were looking at an opener with >2s downtime on SnD.

If we're actually seeing super-frequent energy capping, I could see other stats pulling ahead.