Is "casual engagement" really to blame?

[Crashdummy]

i thought the heroic dungeon were easier than ever, people didn't like it?

Yes people like it, but they wont make any more of them.

[Vankrys]

Difficulty is subjective, data isnt. Only 20% of the gulilds that started T14 finished it before T15 launch, which means that T14 was tuned for the top 20% of raiders.

The game was easy in WotLK and people didnt unsub, so the opposite effect might not be so true, at least not if you tune thigns accordingly.

You might not find Cata 5 man hard, most players did. This is something that has already being discussed and Blizzard finally admited it and fixed it in MoP, although after fixing it they decided to scrap 5 mans altoguether.

not everyone can finish a tier before the next tier is release. but you can always continue to raid a previous tier once a new tier is release. As i remember, there were quite a few guild unable to kill nefarian and chogall during T11, they killed it during T12. That doesn't shock me

I went to see progress on my server, seems that the guild are nicely distributed between heroic and normal for 2 month after a raid release
here is the server i played on http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/eu/dalaran
give it another 2-3 month and a fair amount guild will be at 11/12 and higher. i reallly don't see anything shocking out of the ordinary.

[Crashdummy]

not everyone can finish a tier before the next tier is release. but you can always continue to raid a previous tier once a new tier is release. As i remember, there were quite a few guild unable to kill nefarian and chogall during T11, they killed it during T12. That doesn't shock me

I went to see progress on my server, seems that the guild are nicely distributed between heroic and normal for 2 month after a raid release
here is the server i played on http://www.wowprogress.com/pve/eu/dalaran
give it another 2-3 month and a fair amount guild will be at 11/12 and higher. i reallly don't see anything shocking out of the ordinary.

They can still finish it after, yes, i can raid Molten Core if i wantt today, but the tuning of the raid was done for those that finish it while it was current, which was 20% of the raiders.

I think its a pretty shocking and BAD thing to tune a NORMAL difficulty for the top 20% of players, spcially when you have a higher difficulty available.

[Vankrys]

They can still finish it after, yes, i can raid Molten Core if i wantt today, but the tuning of the raid was done for those that finish it while it was current, which was 20% of the raiders.

I think its a pretty shocking and BAD thing to tune a NORMAL difficulty for the top 20% of players, spcially when you have a higher difficulty available.

i'm not talking about a 9 years old, 15 tiers below raid, i'm talking about the previous tier, litterally a couple month ago. ho many guild finished ulduar normal by the time TOC release. Well about 20% i would guess


but they actually finish the raid tier ... in LFR mode. I don't get it, blizzard introduce LFR as a lower difficulty automated tool for player enable because of schedule or skill to participate or complete normal raid.
Normal raid was, in their wording, for more organized guild wanting a mild challenge. obvioulsy the further they would progress in the raid, the tougher the challenge should be, that how you design game, you curve the difficulty, you don't unload tough opponent right at the start. first bosses should always be easier then the next one.

Then you have heroic raid for guild wanting a tough challenge. Ideally you tune the first boss about the same difficulty than the last boss in normal mode.

It's not like normal or heroic are impossible, many people clear them. It's just that this people either play more, or play better, most likely both. There are always people that play better than oneself. that's why there is always people clearing raid faster than you. But it's ok. There is no unwritten law that say you have to complete the tier but this date, just advance at you own pace.

more than ever before, i believe near 100% of max level player can complete a tier .. in LFR difficulty. And that may be the problem here. Because people can finish LFR within the same tier of release, they feels it should be the same for normal raiding. It's OK not to finish a tier before the next one release, just continue progress, at your own pace. The release of the new tier will help you, providing better gear.

[Osmeric]

but they actually finish the raid tier ... in LFR mode. I don't get it, blizzard introduce LFR as a lower difficulty automated tool for player enable because of schedule or skill to participate or complete normal raid.

You're falling back to the "let them eat LFR" Marie Antoinette solution.

Guilds that didn't finish T14 could "finish it on LFR", yes. And then they were woefully undergeared for T15 normal. What lesson do they take from this? That struggling in normal modes means you're going to be gearing up in the next tier's LFR anyway, so all that frustration had very little payoff. I think many of these guilds abandoned organized raiding in T15 for just this reason.

[Arbs]

Why don't they offer choice? Because everyone copying Simcraft's build was so much choice right?

Hand holding? Look at this thread. It's about normal mode raids being too hard.

Don't bother trying to explain it to him, it just goes into one ear than out the other. I have tried on many occausions and he just avoids / ignores me after he can no longer get around it and is stuck in a corner. It like talking to a brick wall, just don't waste your time on it.

[Crashdummy]

i'm not talking about a 9 years old, 15 tiers below raid, i'm talking about the previous tier, litterally a couple month ago. ho many guild finished ulduar normal by the time TOC release. Well about that number.


but they actually finish the raid tier ... in LFR mode. I don't get it, blizzard introduce LFR as a lower difficulty automated tool for player enable because of schedule or skill to participate or complete normal raid.
Normal raid was, in their wording, for more organized guild wanting a mild challenge. obvioulsy the further they would progress in the raid, the tougher the challenge should be, that how you design game, you curve the difficulty, you don't unload tough opponent right at the start. first bosses should always be easier then the next one.

Then you have heroic raid for guild wanting a tough challenge. Ideally you tune the first boss about the same difficulty than the last boss in normal mode.

more than ever before, i believe near 100% of max level player can complete a tier .. in LFR difficulty. And that may be the problem here. Because people can finish LFR within the same tier of release, they feels it should be the same for normal raiding.

The thing is, there is a HUGE gap between LFR and Normal raiding, but there is ZERO gap between Normal and Heroic. Some Heroic bosses are actually easier than some Normal ones.

And yes, Normal is for organized groups that want a challenge, but today, that challenge is too much for most organized groups, and the very few that can complete it is actually those that are above the level in the first place.

Thats why they have to recuce the gap between LFR and Normal and create a gap between Normal and Heroic. To do that, they must reduce the difficulty of Normal raids.

[Vankrys]

The thing is, there is a HUGE gap between LFR and Normal raiding, but there is ZERO gap between Normal and Heroic. Some Heroic bosses are actually easier than some Normal ones.

And yes, Normal is for organized groups that want a challenge, but today, that challenge is too much for most organized groups, and the very few that can complete it is actually those that are above the level in the first place.

Thats why they have to recuce the gap between LFR and Normal and create a gap between Normal and Heroic. To do that, they must reduce the difficulty of Normal raids.

i'd say, it's not that normal raid is harder then before, just that, because of LFR, people have the exception to be easier than it is. use your armory , how many boss did you down in T8, T9, T10, T11, T12 and T13 2 month after tier release. as a comparison to T15.

[XingoJenkins]

I thought talents would give some diversity, but it's still cookie cutter and sometimes you change 1 or 2 talents, but it will be the same. Always.
I'd like to get more talents that gives you real hard decisions of "both are good, but wich one is the best for it?". Not what we have today: "Every fight i put these, in this specific fight I change this one. done."

The game lost their playerbase because you don't have your "uniqueness" anymore. People like to be treated differently. If you bring down Ra-Den, you need to show that. In other words, you have the same item that a casual player or a Bad player got in LFR. Legendaries are for everyone. If you see someone with a legendary your impression isn't greater than just a: "meh. One more daily and I get mine". Legendaries are supposed to be like: "OMG that guys dropped both glaives. OMG I want that soooo much!"
Accessibility brought game down. Down to a level where nobody feels the sense of discovery anymore, the wish of being in a new level, with new items. To aim something in the game. That feeling of accomplishment isn't in the game anymore.

[Crashdummy]

i'd say, it's not that normal raid is harder then before, just that, because of LFR, people have the exception to be easier than it is. use your armory , how many boss did you down in T8, T9, T10, T11, T12 and T13 2 month after tier release. as a comparison to T15.

Normal tier is clearly harder. Again, taking DS as example since its the one that had LFR, 62k guilds killed Morchok before MoP, but only 42k guilds killed Sone Guards before 5.2, and thats after 6 months with item upgrades.
25k guilds have killed Jinrohkt, after two months.

Normal raiding is being destroyed by this raiding difficulty they introduced in MoP.

[Vankrys]

Normal tier is clearly harder. Again, taking DS as example since its the one that had LFR, 62k guilds killed Morchok before MoP, but only 42k guilds killed Sone Guards before 5.2, and thats after 6 months with item upgrades.
25k guilds have killed Jinrohkt, after two months.

Normal raiding is being destroyed by this raiding difficulty they introduced in MoP.

yes, DS had dragon soul, but it also had an insame 35 or 40% stacking buff, is now more than a year old and 5 level lower. would be interesting to se the stats 2 month after release though.

[Glorious Leader]

I've become convinced that Blizzard as a whole simple does not understand what made their products succesfull in the past. It had NOTHING TO DO with either difficulty or compeitition. One of their most critically acclaimed titles (diablo 2) had neither difficulty nor competition. It was entirely social and casual friendly.

[Osmeric]

I've become convinced that Blizzard as a whole simple does not understand what made their products succesfull in the past.

I agree, and this gives me hope. MoP may be their attempt at a controlled experiment -- toss a wider variety of things at the players, and see what sticks and what doesn't.

If so, difficult organized raiding is failing the test.

[Aphrel]

if you dont like to gear up in tot lfr (wich is very understandable) then do the old normal modes, they were all nerfed considerably to help guilds catching up to current teir. the first tot boss is relativly easy, and with all the nerfs to horridon and council your first wall in tot shouldnt come until meagera or durumu.

and its true normalmode these 2 teirs have been considerably harder then normal mode was in firelands and dragonsoul. thou i whould argue that the normal mode difficulty is fine, the problem is the previous step in the gearladder being to easy and boring.
Lfr, dungeons and the gear gap! imo they should have buffed all t14 content to match ilvl with tot lfr. that way a guild wanting to gear up for tot normal mode they could do it in the old teir rather then being forced to team up with the not so freindly crowd in lfr. (when tot lfr were released any that didnt have full heroic raiding gear from last teir had at least some spot where lfr could provide an upgrade for them wich is imo bad design)

and dungeons this expansion is a joke.. if blizzard feels they need to do 5mans this easy then i think it is time to add another difficulty to them..
They could put lfr gear to drop in challengemodes, that whould be something like a comfort reward when your grp fail to beat the timer. a consolidation prize and also a way to gear up for raidcontent.
speaking of dungeons.. what happend to normalmode dungeons in this expansion?! did we skip an entire difficulty completly? no wonder heroic mode was so disturbingly easy.. but why is it even called heroic mode if its the first availible difficulty?

[Glorious Leader]

I agree, and this gives me hope. MoP may be their attempt at a controlled experiment -- toss a wider variety of things at the players, and see what sticks and what doesn't.

If so, difficult organized raiding is failing the test.

Word the fuck up. I'm told the developers often read these forums. Well If they do understand this. I didn't play SC to participate in esports. I play for custom games,ums and primarily NR 20 the most casual of casual shit. I also didn't play diablo 2 cause I was some no lifer grinding my face off for whatever bullshit drops may or may not come. I did it because it was fun to do with my pals and screw around in the game. That's where you should focus wow.

[Vankrys]

If so, difficult organized raiding is failing the test.

embrace the zerg!

[Deleted]

Word the fuck up. I'm told the developers often read these forums. Well If they do understand this. I didn't play SC to participate in esports. I play for custom games,ums and primarily NR 20 the most casual of casual shit. I also didn't play diablo 2 cause I was some no lifer grinding my face off for whatever bullshit drops may or may not come. I did it because it was fun to do with my pals and screw around in the game. That's where you should focus wow.

Or maybe WoW should not be directed in one way, but multiple ways appealing to more than one gaming demographic.

[Glorious Leader]

Or maybe WoW should not be directed in one way, but multiple ways appealing to more than one gaming demographic.

It is skewed HEAVILY in favor of one demographic. I'll let you figre out which one that is.

[Deleted]

It is skewed HEAVILY in favor of one demographic. I'll let you figre out which one that is.

No... i'd say you have access to all content on multiple difficulties.

Your argument is that you want the difficulties you're unable to do to receive the Nerf bat.

[Deleted]

This is wrong. Harder 5 mans doesnt mean easier normal raids, because harder 5 man doesnt increase the playerbase skill, harder 5 man reduce the playerbase amount, like they did in Cata.

Blizzard already tried making 5 man dugneons harder in Cata, and it was one of the worst decisions in Blizzard's history, along with D3 RMAH and MoP daily system.

What Blizzard need to do is simple, tune NORMAL raids for NORMAL raiders and not for the top 20% of raiders like they are now.

I did not find 5man cat hard in any way shape or form. I remember people crying about grimbatol, and i though to my self grimbatol? It is the easiest 5man in CAT o.O.


On the side note, I do not think easy 5man was a bad mistake they lost more subs after they nerffed everything, hell they even lost me i was 3/5 BOT only missing the last boss and Sinestra it was a major blow and i rage quit to play rift, and i am glad i did so, cause I had an hell of a time leveling up it was fun the world was dangerous from level 20-23 it was an hell of time XD

But on topic harder 5man will sooner or later make good players, either they put the skill up or they won't get their gear.
You have to see the other side of guilds too a 5man geared player would be a possible recruit. If he has the gear he probably have the skill. Nowadays you get a guy full epic you bring him to raid and he dies on trash -.-''