so the DK nerfs

[Hand Banana]

Ret is also one of the few melee without CC breaks/magic immunities to use offensively. If someone does not die during the pally's CD's, the Pally will not help with pressure outside of them.

Healer dispels are big here, with freedom for dk/pally and sac to break healers out of cc they have plenty of pressure during cds with 2 5 second ranged stuns post priest fearbomb. And if you survive the cds, thats where rets crazy offhealing and dks crazy solo pressure still keep you on your heels while not being able to do a whole lot to land kills. Dunno, the times ive played against it seemed pretty strong, and with spriests/hunters/rogues being nerfed and rets being buffed it can only get stronger.

[Flaks]

Ye cuz there's just as many high rated DK's as those classes... Oh wait, not even close. Damn.

Rogues: retarded broken OP and getting nerfed.

Sprisets: getting gutted.

Hunters: need to get nerfed HARD. Equal rep to UH for the most part. Lower rep in rbgs than frost dks.

Mages: About equal rep.

Mages and rogues are getting MASSIVE nerfs through the PvP power nerf since 99% of their OPness comes from being able to kill targets in their openers.

P.S. Rep doesn't really matter for shit. UH and rogues are both ridiculously over the top. Comparing it to god tier specs/classes only goes to show that it is also OP as hell.

P.P.S. Ranged >>> melee. The fact that UH can even compete with ranged also goes to show how over the top it is.

[Deleted]

DKs are fine... in an environment where PvP viability does not come from the ability to burst someone down in two seconds, which today is the case, mostly. If he can survive it, be it double healer, a battleground where people generally don't do that or enemies who fuck up, he'll/we'll be able to ramp up our pressure and... well: PRESSURE, that's what we exist for.

[Anium]

haha please DK's will still deal x% more damage than anyone else in arena

[nyc81991]

Only change i'm not super happy with is that the necrotic nerf was too harsh. Everything else understandable, and i know necrotic strike needed some tuning adjustments. I just didn't see the reason to nerf it to the ground making it unusable.

Side note, with the recent changes to it, I wouldn't mind seeing it cost runic power instead of a death rune. You would have to choose between doing dmg or building an absorb depending what cd's up your team has up to land a kill, and this would work for both frost and unholy without being op.

Some people would argue that Necrotic Strike shouldn't even exist.

[Beefkow]

Some people would argue that Necrotic Strike shouldn't even exist.

Agreed, its the reason unholy dks aren't able to put out insane (damage) pressure back in cata and mop (ever since unholys started to go unholy presence and gained 1.0 gcd with wet noodle non crits).

[Vathius]

because its time for other melee classes to be wanted in RBGs

[Nyaldee]

because its time for other melee classes to be wanted in RBGs

It doesn't have much to do with necrotics, extra 5% str or spread dmg that gets healed through by hots and bouncing poms. No melee will overtake DK as a king of RBG becouse of death grip mechanic - short cooldown disposition that can be easilly followed by teammates. Pretty much the same story with rogues and smoke bomb giving them a niche of bursting down flag carrier. Rest melee just don't have anything special enough to compete with ranged classes.

[Honnycorns]

From your point of view, being able to stack 400k+ necrotik strike in a 5sec stun and being able to sit in blood presence and still do 95%+ of your normal damage while having 25% more stamina, 55% more armor and take 10% less damage is normal? Not to mention the 3% health per second that you get from convertion if you are in trouble is not too much.

I can use, as a T2 ret paladin, all my offensive CDs and you will simply by using your defensive ones kill me before I do and you will probably not be below 50% health.

Your damage is incredible, burst ability as well, you can stick to your target even better than a warrior can. You have more offensive pressure than any other class.

This is a troll thread.

[Korgoth]

Some people would argue that Necrotic Strike shouldn't even exist.

I've been arguing that since GC said during Cata Beta Warrior's couldnt have a unique healing debuff, because unique healing debuffs were unfair. Then he gave one to DKs and Rogues.

[Deleted]

Rogues: retarded broken OP and getting nerfed.

Sprisets: getting gutted.

Hunters: need to get nerfed HARD. Equal rep to UH for the most part. Lower rep in rbgs than frost dks.

Mages: About equal rep.

Mages and rogues are getting MASSIVE nerfs through the PvP power nerf since 99% of their OPness comes from being able to kill targets in their openers.

P.S. Rep doesn't really matter for shit. UH and rogues are both ridiculously over the top. Comparing it to god tier specs/classes only goes to show that it is also OP as hell.

P.P.S. Ranged >>> melee. The fact that UH can even compete with ranged also goes to show how over the top it is.

UH is hardly as represented as Hunter or Rogue or Mage at high ratings, you should double check with some reliable data. Even, though Dk is much more represented at lower ratings. All good dk comps are with these so called broken classes like hunter, spriest, mage. DK's are good in rbgs and they always were, and that's because of death grip, as that makes you perfect target caller and makes you target pretty defenseless. Also newly gained synergy with beam, and ranged spammable attack - howling blast, yeah if you didnt notice frost rep is much higher in rbgs than uh, that says something.

Rep doesn't mean anything, wait wasn't your whole point about uh dk rep?

Ranged>melee, I agree, melee must have its niche in order to compete. Dk still doesn't compete so much for r1. It does too much overall pressure compared to other classes and that should obviously be changed, but they should also gain something.

From your point of view, being able to stack 400k+ necrotik strike in a 5sec stun and being able to sit in blood presence and still do 95%+ of your normal damage while having 25% more stamina, 55% more armor and take 10% less damage is normal? Not to mention the 3% health per second that you get from convertion if you are in trouble is not too much.

I can use, as a T2 ret paladin, all my offensive CDs and you will simply by using your defensive ones kill me before I do and you will probably not be below 50% health.

Your damage is incredible, burst ability as well, you can stick to your target even better than a warrior can. You have more offensive pressure than any other class.

This is a troll thread.

Well first of all I don't think this thread is defending dk's, its just for discussing dk changes and their impact on pvp, so no, no troll thread.

If you stack 400k necrotic in 5 sec stun after necrotic nerf and trinket change, well kudos to you. DK's don't do 95% of their damage while in blood presence, it's more in lines of 80-90%, but yeah its bit too much, compared to something like defensive stance, the sad thing is though that dk's have to sit in blood stance whole games only to survive, and still usually being main targets on their teams for kill, that's says something about design of blood stance. Warrior having worse mobility than dk? What planet are you from.

Well basically you are exaggerating on every number in your post, so yeah, probably because of your experience with them from 2s or bgs, maybe duels. Only true thing is that dks have the best pressure and blizz knows it, thing is there is fine line where pressure becomes useless, like in affliction case this season, where even though you pressure everything, it's just not enough to get a kill, and so spec becomes useless.

[prestilence]

It is impossible to stack an effective 400k NS in arenas.. You can do it to target dummies, not an actual arena. You're lucky to get 2 stacked. And youre lucky to get the 2 stack since you will likely be the focus kill each time. If you see a DK , the strat is to kill it within 10 seconds. Blood pres, IBF, ams, conversion active, all that together still can not survive most bursts. Then again no class should die with all defensives popped and their healer only interrupted on one heal. Thought that shit was supposed to be in 2s. 3s isnt balanced at all, people need to get real and stop pretendingtheir class' arent broken. ALL OF THEM ARE. its just the GC hard-on classes are easily more roll face especially with their class mechanics being stupid scaled atm.

You really think 10% reduced damage, + 10% hp is going to stop a mage with CDs and 30% crit proc? lol... And btw you are mixing improved blood presence with regular. Improved is blood DKs. Regular blood presence is not as good as ppl seem to think. WE HAVE TO, we have no other option but to sit in blood presenc eas unholy, or else we will get globalled. 69% resil, in blood pres, yeah you can still focus that dk down before the healer can do anything.

[Thirtyrock]

It is impossible to stack an effective 400k NS in arenas.. You can do it to target dummies, not an actual arena. You're lucky to get 2 stacked. And youre lucky to get the 2 stack since you will likely be the focus kill each time. If you see a DK , the strat is to kill it within 10 seconds. Blood pres, IBF, ams, conversion active, all that together still can not survive most bursts. Then again no class should die with all defensives popped and their healer only interrupted on one heal. Thought that shit was supposed to be in 2s. 3s isnt balanced at all, people need to get real and stop pretendingtheir class' arent broken. ALL OF THEM ARE. its just the GC hard-on classes are easily more roll face especially with their class mechanics being stupid scaled atm.

You really think 10% reduced damage, + 10% hp is going to stop a mage with CDs and 30% crit proc? lol... And btw you are mixing improved blood presence with regular. Improved is blood DKs. Regular blood presence is not as good as ppl seem to think. WE HAVE TO, we have no other option but to sit in blood presenc eas unholy, or else we will get globalled. 69% resil, in blood pres, yeah you can still focus that dk down before the healer can do anything.

I don't play at very good ratings yet, so this may be a lower rating thing, but I frequently get 4 stacks of necrotic in my 3s. We plan our burst around it: Begin fight, spread diseases, convert runes: as runes come off cd start stacking necrotics while partners cc healer--Major defensive cd or kill.

I do agree completely about the fact that we're squishy, very much a glass cannon sort of thing.

[meathead]

I've been arguing that since GC said during Cata Beta Warrior's couldnt have a unique healing debuff, because unique healing debuffs were unfair. Then he gave one to DKs and Rogues.

yeah i remember that shit coming out of GC's mouth.they nerf ours then make it better for another class,i watched that happen over and over again since BC.


by the way they just buffed NS.

[Deleted]

yeah i remember that shit coming out of GC's mouth.they nerf ours then make it better for another class,i watched that happen over and over again since BC.


by the way they just buffed NS.

A technical buff, but the reality is the buff is to counteract the slight nerf it got when they hot fixed its interaction with resilience.

[meathead]

A technical buff, but the reality is the buff is to counteract the slight nerf it got when they hot fixed its interaction with resilience.

still a buff either way and they reverted some nerfs for them as well.

[danightryder]

It is impossible to stack an effective 400k NS in arenas.. You can do it to target dummies, not an actual arena. You're lucky to get 2 stacked. And youre lucky to get the 2 stack since you will likely be the focus kill each time. If you see a DK , the strat is to kill it within 10 seconds. Blood pres, IBF, ams, conversion active, all that together still can not survive most bursts. Then again no class should die with all defensives popped and their healer only interrupted on one heal. Thought that shit was supposed to be in 2s. 3s isnt balanced at all, people need to get real and stop pretendingtheir class' arent broken. ALL OF THEM ARE. its just the GC hard-on classes are easily more roll face especially with their class mechanics being stupid scaled atm.

You really think 10% reduced damage, + 10% hp is going to stop a mage with CDs and 30% crit proc? lol... And btw you are mixing improved blood presence with regular. Improved is blood DKs. Regular blood presence is not as good as ppl seem to think. WE HAVE TO, we have no other option but to sit in blood presenc eas unholy, or else we will get globalled. 69% resil, in blood pres, yeah you can still focus that dk down before the healer can do anything.

No idea what you are talking about, I always easily get 4-6 stacks necrotic stacks. If you can't get more than 2 stacks your doing something super wrong. I always wait for 10 blood tap charges convert my runes and switch with either a pet stun or asphyxiate(sp) stun which is garanteed 3-4 stacks. Then just b4 the stun is over make sure your slow is on the target and that can get u another stack or 2 with blood tap charges. With the help from your teammate with roots on the enemy or freedom on you, thats your window to get your damage out. And in terms of peals, thats why you have cross cc. Remember you gotta set up your kill not just zerg down someone. We don't have it as easy as a mage or hunter.

[Tyrannica]

S9 as well man

after about 2 weeks during the active s9, dks(especially unholy) got hotfixed by about 10 dmg hotfix, including pet dmg, coil dmg and so on. In addition a silent hotfix to necro followed.

Compare this short period of beeing op, to the long period opness of warriors that always lasted a full seasion, after it, they became crap tho, but its miles better in comparission to dks.

oh and mages are still op, their "golden" seasion never seem to end, starting in mid/end wotlk, before that they were "fine".

[prestilence]

No idea what you are talking about, I always easily get 4-6 stacks necrotic stacks. If you can't get more than 2 stacks your doing something super wrong. I always wait for 10 blood tap charges convert my runes and switch with either a pet stun or asphyxiate(sp) stun which is garanteed 3-4 stacks. Then just b4 the stun is over make sure your slow is on the target and that can get u another stack or 2 with blood tap charges. With the help from your teammate with roots on the enemy or freedom on you, thats your window to get your damage out. And in terms of peals, thats why you have cross cc. Remember you gotta set up your kill not just zerg down someone. We don't have it as easy as a mage or hunter.

That may or may not be true, but regardless when it comes to DKs claiming they are able to stack 4- 6 necrotic strikes, that is impossible. The correct term would MAYBE be, I Necrotic strike 4-6x... There is a HUGE difference to stacking Necrotic Strike, and hitting necrotic strike. I can hit 6 NS, Emp rune weapon and do some more and say that I can do 10 in 4 seconds. The point is that NS damage output is NOT a source of "unholy damage", the only reason we use NS is when getting ready to kill, or to eat incoming, what would be Effective healing. So in arenas 90% of healers have passive healing effects, or lingering heals from previous spells, or talent procs, etc. So when people say they "stack" NS they are not actually watching the amount absorbed. By the time you hit your 2nd NS, the first one has been eaten by healing- By the time you hit your 3rd of fourth, the healer may have popped a CD, or had his own procs resulting in harder heals that are countering your necrotic strike "stacks". So in reality, yes you may be able to stack NS on a target dummy...But against a good healer team, your NS will be lucky to ever see 3 stacks on any given target. And you are right you do have to set up our kill. But simply stacking NS, blowing EMP rune early and popping garg super early is NOT going to win games above 1700. TO beat good teams youll need to force their CDs and trinks and keep constant pressure and when you know the healer has nothing, dump a few NS, Death coil, icy touch dispel, etc. You shouldnt ever just stack NS when going for a kill, there are things to consider. (is your partner able to follow up, is a healer able to cc a dps that could peel or save his healer (spriest void shift, mage pom poly, etc)

---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 04:40 PM ----------

If we really want to get technical with DK "nerfs" why not bring up the big issue that has not been resolved or has mention of ever getting resolved. Our pets.

Unholy is one of the pet command class specs obviously. Yet out of the other pet classes (frost mage, bm) ours is by far the weakest. Against a cleave team, its likely dead in a few seconds. Sure you could use huddle, but where is the control? Or the survivability? When I get focused sometimes I'll Gnaw a dps when my healer is CCd rather cc healer to finish a kill. At 498k hp in blood pres (unholy) my pet has 192khp. And my main damage is the only source to heal it. Imagine a hunters using their shots to heal their pets, it would give their pet crazy survivability, but their damage would be reduced. Same with mage, the only difference is our pet class is a melee one. They should make a pet glyph similar to warlock (demon training) and have it act like a 100% second wind passive effect. Or have blood boil spread diseases to our pet if in blood boil range, and have those DoTs heal him over time. Mellee pet class is unique, as it should be, but why make the pet weaker than a ranged pet? Lowest HP, worst way to keep it alive by trading dps, and basically the only way to shut down a DK is to focus his pet twice, then put him on a 2 min CD. This is the same with any class. Kill the pet twice, and you control the player. Its just not fair, or is much much more challenging to actually manage our pet. And think about it, Unholy REVOLVES around pet usage. Pet Xform (reward dps modifier, not a proc) Death pact, a GO TO healing move. Or our control, 60% of it is through our pet. Yet a mage is 90% control and 10% elemental (frost nova, which can be tied into deep freeze) thats equal to everytime we Gnaw, we can xform our ghoul, while also hitting 5 Deathcoils.

People think about our damage output, (yeah well learn to kite better) A good player shuts down a Unholy DK for a good chunk of time by geometry and kiting.
Our survivability is good, but being forced to use everything within the first 5-8 seconds is crap. (likely used Death pact, ghoul is now weak)
Pet is killed twice, we have no reward for having our 5th deathcoil (no Xform, death pact, Stunx2, anti healer drinking, gap closing, etc)

No body thinks about pets, but unholy NEEDS to have a pet that doesnt have to be Huddled anytime its not being used for a stun. Imagine is the other classes had the same pet mechanic, BM would stop playing, ppl would complain, Mages would just go Fire and not give a shit cuz blizz would likely buff the hell out of it knowing their pets would be gimp. So really, we should be testing our pet damage to the 5.3 changes while not x formed and xformed. When I was testing on PTR it was 9-13k damage non xform, yet mage pet can hit for 50k, and BM pet...LOL 150k+ attacks. I would be great if our pet hit as hard as a BM and had more dynamic influence, rather than a negative influence meaning just kill the DKs pet twice (doesnt even have 192k hp)and you kill the DK.