Could blizzard really remove something this ingrained in WoW?

[Deleted]

suggested this yesterday:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...pvp+suggestion

What if there was a repeatable quest (stay with me!) at each faction's capital city where you could turn in resources gathered from specific points across the world - or gained from holding specific bases (eastern plaguelands style). Entering these small zones would flag you for pvp and you'd either need to be lucky enough that nobody else was there or fight to control these resources.

Once acquired you would hand them back into the questgiver and, based on faction participation that day/week you could set loose a giant war construct that would make its way slowly (and on foot) from a faction outpost towards the opposing faction's capital city to attack a target (think Alterac Valley before it turned into a zerg fest).

You could ride along side this construct, defending it (its aura flagging you for PvP) where as the opposing faction would be alerted to the position and imminent arrival of the war construct via the world defence chat channel.

Protecting or defeating the construct could award tokens that could be handed in for vanity rewards, valor or conquest points.

I realised it's a flawed idea that doesn't really have any leeway for faction imbalances but maybe some sort of phased CRZ or NPC defenders could be added to make up the numbers. It's something I'd like to see at least - a way of bringing people back together in the world to fight against or protect a specific goal.

Wouldn't that be a way of encouraging world PVP while keeping flying intact?

[Florena]

Taking it out entirely would be extremely difficult if not impossible. One idea I've seen here on MMO-champ to reduce the amount of flying is to give flying mounts endurance, like holding your breath underwater. Another idea would be to have "flying mount food" that got consumed as the mount flew - flying around, espeically at high speed, could literally cost you gold. My personal suggestion is to add scary aerial mobs, like the black dragons you used to run into over Blade's Edge - Blizz could even implement the long-promised aerial combat.

Also: They removed talent trees, I don't see why they couldn't (potentially) remove flying.

They revamped the talent system. If they tried to removes the talent system entirely without putting anything in its place people would flip out. Comparing something like character customization and talents being overhauled with a convenience/travel option is apples and oranges to begin with.

[Glorious Leader]

As for world pvp the amount of world pvp I saw pre flying mount was laughable. It amounted to basically rogues running around ganking lowbies (really players of any class although rogues and reckoning bomb paladins seemed to be plentiful) and whenever I saw a raid or anything go down for world pvp (which was rare) it usually fizzled out by the time I got there.

[Ishayu]

While I think flying mounts have been tremendously damaging to World of Warcraft as a whole, I've kindof gotten past the fact that their removal just isn't going to happen. I understand Blizzard has an enormous desire to remove them but feel they just can't; a little bit like racials.

Things that flying mounts damaged:
1) Scope of the world.
2) Keeping you out of zones until you progressed far enough to be able to take them on.
3) World PvP including ganking and city raids (it basically killed it)

Despite all of that... It isn't going to happen.

[Lucetia]

Most people find it very convenient and a small few point to it as one of the worst additions to the game. I'm talking about the world pvp killer, yes friends im talking about flying mounts. Now for those that want it gone I'd love to hear a reasonable explanation of how it could be removed without hurting certain parts of the game for example without flying it would've been impossible to do any of the Eye dungeons or TK. So please I am very curious to how the designers could remove flying entirely and I welcome your thoughts and opinions.

I love how everyone blames flying mounts as "World PvP Killer". What killed World PvP is the lack of incentive. In Vanilla the incentive was the HK count which in turn meant the more you got on the weekly reset. Once BG's became a better source of honor per time World PvP starting going down. Players want to feel like they are being rewarded in some way for the work they are doing (in this case PvP'ing out in the world). Right now there is no incentive other than just to kill people to kill people. Once you offer some incentive for World PvP that you can't get in BG's/Arena's then people will start considering it as an option. Right now, it's just not worth the time.

So my question is, why does everyone blame flying mounts when that's not the core issue? Is it because flying mounts are easy to blame since they came out around the same time the Honor system was revamped and BG's became more worth it?

You could take flying mounts out now and there would be no change. People would stay in sanctuaries more, in heavily guarded areas you can't get to them or in cities. You would have less people wanting to do things because they can't be bothered with the ground mount travel in some areas.

If World PvP was so popular and flying mounts were the cause then you would've seen a decent increase on Isle of Thunder, but we haven't. So that tells you the problem is something to do with the World PvP system and starting at rewards is a good start.

So again I ask, why does everyone blame flying mounts when that's not the core issue? Is it because flying mounts are easy to blame since they came out around the same time the Honor system was revamped and BG's became more worth it?

[Florena]

I have to ask all these suggestions are neat and stuff but do you think it will fulfil any function? Immersion didn't die because of flying mounts. It died because you got smart and wise to the game. You want immersion back go lobotomize yourself.

On the note of immersion: If flying mounts hurt your immersion, don't use them. Quest without it. Take a flight path or ground mount to your location. They're completely optional in most cases. Don't think anywhere in MoP requires one.

[blackblade]

Flying is not a problem in WoW.

I have several cool and awesome flying mounts, and I don't want them taken away because someone mistakenly thinks that "everything will be solved" if you can no longer fly. World PvP wont return. People that PvP will stick to avenues which actually provide rewards, like battlegrounds and arenas, regardless of whether flying mounts are removed. Server imbalances are too large on PvP servers to warrant "true" PvP beyond "repeated ganking."

Requiring max level to use a flying mount in an expansion continent, or having specific zones in which flying mounts don't work (like Wintergrasp during battles,) is fine.

But to completely remove flying mounts is just a stupid idea.



Now, I'm not insulting you as a person.

I just wish to destroy this incorrect assumption regarding flying mounts so thoroughly; so utterly, that blizzard will not incorrectly listen to it and implement it in some way.

BOLDED FOR EMPHASIS.

Seriously. The only reason, back in the day, that we did the old back-and-forth in TM/SS was because we didn't have battlegrounds. We also didn't have honor-bought gear. You killed endlessly to get rank, you could buy items at a given rank for gold.

In TBC, you had spirit towers, and the ZM towers (and to lesser import, the hellfire arenas)

The spirit towers were important because they were spitting distance from Shat.
The ZM towers were important because they provided a (small) buff in several instances and one fairly difficult raid.

Shy of WG, there wasn't much like that in WLK. Tol Barad for cataclysm.

We don't really have an equivalent in MoP (world bosses, if you're on a PVP server.)

[Glorious Leader]

On the note of immersion: If flying mounts hurt your immersion, don't use them. Quest without it. Take a flight path or ground mount to your location. They're completely optional in most cases. Don't think anywhere in MoP requires one.

So what exactly is the dmg done by flying mounts? I don't get it? Is WPVP that big of a concern? Well if that's your big concern then flying mounts aren't going nowhere. Few if any players did Wpvp and once BGs were implemented nobody did it.

[Florena]

While I think flying mounts have been tremendously damaging to World of Warcraft as a whole, I've kindof gotten past the fact that their removal just isn't going to happen. I understand Blizzard has an enormous desire to remove them but feel they just can't; a little bit like racials.

Things that flying mounts damaged:
1) Scope of the world.
2) Keeping you out of zones until you progressed far enough to be able to take them on.
3) World PvP including ganking and city raids (it basically killed it)

Despite all of that... It isn't going to happen.

It didn't kill city raids. As for ganking, if anything it's made ganking lowbies easier. As for ganking people who can fly, ganking is the lowest form of wpvp anyway.

[mvaliz]

World PVP has little to no presense on most realms because the rewards compared to BGs also has no presense.

I still remember the day the Honor system was implemented. World PVP all but disappeared... and when it happened what few times it did happen - there was no honor (ironically). It was just maximizing killing for ranking up.

The most respected honorable opponents I loved in my TM/SS days became nothing but blind bloodthirsty killers wanting to "rank up". Used to salute and bow to them before an engagement. Now they didn't care. Hurry those honor points!!!

[mistahwilshire]

No and they shouldn't.

[Glorious Leader]

I still remember the day the Honor system was implemented. World PVP all but disappeared... and when it happened what few times it did happen - there was no honor (ironically). It was just maximizing killing for ranking up.

The most respected honorable opponents I loved in my TM/SS days became nothing but blind bloodthirsty killers wanting to "rank up". Used to salute and bow to them before an engagement. Now they didn't care. Hurry those honor points!!!

Man you guys went all out on the RP. I should enforce that in guild. You must bow to the guild leader and bow to each other before commencing a duel.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

On both of my servers, World PvP happens in one place: Isle of Thunder. On both servers, it's either A. 5 or more of one faction thinking it's cool to repeatedly kill the same person over and over again, or B. People fighting over Nalak (and Oondasta, to a lesser extent).

In either case, it's not really World PvP, more of a "Let's go piss someone off because we've stacked the odds! " World PvP is dead; Really nothing anyone can do about it.

[Fortera]

I'm trying to imagine the Cataclysm zones that were designed specifically for flying as a series of ramps. It's quite hilarious.

It's one of those things that no matter what they do people will complain about. Better to leave it like it is and have the already-angry stay that way instead of pissing off a whole new group of people for no good reason. And if anyone hasn't noticed the recent kerfluffle over CRZ, there are a lot of people who aren't particularly interested in world PVP. Those that are should be on PVP servers. Those that aren't shouldn't be (on PVP servers).

Don't need ramps. As someone stated earlier, ropes and other means can be used to gain altitude. It works in other games. Attach to a rope, move vertically. GG.

Flying is not necessary. Adding climbing ropes and ladders to get to cliffs and other high areas would force us to explore and actually experience the world instead of fly over it. People who fly from A to B to just get shit done don't really care about the game, they're just doing the grind they're addicted to or forced to do because of X reason.

[Glorious Leader]

Don't need ramps. As someone stated earlier, ropes and other means can be used to gain altitude. It works in other games. Attach to a rope, move vertically. GG.

Flying is not necessary. Adding climbing ropes and ladders to get to cliffs and other high areas would force us to explore and actually experience the world instead of fly over it. People who fly from A to B to just get shit done don't really care about the game, they're just doing the grind they're addicted to or forced to do because of X reason.

Wait let me understand this here. They pay 15 bucks a month and more importantly invest their limted time to play a game they don't really care about and you've gleaned this more of less based solely on the fact that they want their flying mounts to get around. Wouldn't it just be easier to keep the 15 bucks?

[Ratboy]

On both of my servers, World PvP happens in one place: Isle of Thunder. On both servers, it's either A. 5 or more of one faction thinking it's cool to repeatedly kill the same person over and over again, or B. People fighting over Nalak (and Oondasta, to a lesser extent).

In either case, it's not really World PvP, more of a "Let's go piss someone off because we've stacked the odds! " World PvP is dead; Really nothing anyone can do about it.

That is exactly what World PvP was, it was all about out numbering and destroying your opponents. The server I was on during Vanilla, 40 Horde would be attacking Southshore so Alliance would start showing up to fight back. As soon as enough Alliance showed up to put up at least a hind of a fight the Horde would run away. It was all about getting easy kills and pissing off the lower levels trying to quest.

[muto]

Blizzard could just make it so people could select the flying mount they want to use on flight paths. Boom problem solved. People could still ride their flying mounts.

There could be an auto select option, a random option, or a select option.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

That is exactly what World PvP was, it was all about out numbering and destroying your opponents. The server I was on during Vanilla, 40 Horde would be attacking Southshore so Alliance would start showing up to fight back. As soon as enough Alliance showed up to put up at least a hind of a fight the Horde would run away. It was all about getting easy kills and pissing off the lower levels trying to quest.

Well see, when those 5-10 people only doing it when there are 3 Alliance on the Isle at 3-4 in the morning (and those Alliance are undergeared or don't PvP at all), while the Horde are all 2200+ rated PvPs with full Tyrannical - Yeah, tends to not create World PvP.

[Florena]

And this is why blizzard doesn't tend to try all that hard at wpvp. Sure, they'll give us encouragements like making us go out into the world for valor/conquest/honor gear. They'll give us opposing daily faction hubs. But ultimately, most wpvp falls into one of two categories. Ganking/camping and zerging. That's not to say there isn't quality, relatively balanced wpvp that goes on. I've had a lot of good, roughly even fights on my server. But for the most part, one side tends to outnumber the other by a significant amount. Or you get the 'hit and run' group that will form up and zerg daily questers or take over a building in an enemy city, then portal out when the opposition forms up to combat them. And then, things are unbalanced even further in certain zones like the Klaxxi buffs in Dread Wastes and the buff you get from Jaina after completing all the isle of thunder quest stuff.

WPvP can be a lot of fun, but it's chaotic and unbalanced by its very nature. So blizz can't give it real incentives. Sure, zone wide buffs can be put in like in Krasarang, along with some fun rewards from grinding those commendations from killing in that zone. But at the end of the day, if they let you get conquest points out of it, enough that you could cap without doing rbgs or arena, it could result in abuse like the rampant win trading in Tol'Barad.

With this all in consideration, I don't think that flying mount should be taken out as an attempt to bring back WPvP. It would force people who like the convenience (who I suspect are the silent majority on this issue) to give it up, just so those that want their immersion can't do it either even though they could just stop using their flying mounts right now if they really wanted to. Nobody's forcing you. Those that REALLY want the immersion of ground mounds only are free to abandon their flying mounts in all but a few situations you have to fly for. And even then, you can go as close as you can on ground and then just fly a short distance.

[Namalia]

World PvP is bad.
World PvP is horrid.
World PvP should DIAF.

PvP is bad.
PvP is horrid.
PvP should DIAF.

Besides, if enough players actually WANTED fair World PvP, it would happen. Players make World PvP, not Blizzard.

Your problem with World PvP is that now, it is simply considered by many to be max level players killing lower level players and then running away if anyone their level shows up.

This is what I feel World PvP consists of now, and I was around for the great TM/SS & Astranaar/XR battles of Classic.

I'm not sure what you can do to change this vision of WPvP, but to me, if it dies completely, I will remember fondly the days of Classic, but I won't shed a tear to see PvP vanish.