Legacy Realms - What's your verdict

[ati87]

The only reason why it would stay fun for longer then a month is because how horrible the balance of the game was back then (vanilla and tbc).

it would take weeks for the average person to reach level cap because how bad the leveling was back then
it would take months for the average guild to gear up enough players to reach Naxx because of how bad the loot tables where back then

and it would only take 1 hour to clear the raid itself because of how simple the fights themselves where

[Xerkx]

If they ever add old expansion realms then it's the day I quit.

and that's the day I'll subscribe

[Jainzar]

if you want to play on a realm like that, there is tons of private servers which do exactly this. specific setting (vanilla, bc, wotlk) with well coded encounters and lots of players. obviously won't link any sites here, but it's easily looked up on the internet.

[Sturmbringe]

Imagine what would happen if it was demanded by Blizzard that they start paying to do so on the "official" legacy servers...

I would stop paying Bioware for SWTOR and re-sub to Blizzard.

I don't know if you are following the Private Server scene. The most successful private servers now require monthly donations (via Paypal) to skip queues and they have also started private shops online when people shop gear for their toons or vanity mounts through paypal again.

So, some of them are paying already. Why not paying the same fee to Blizzard? It should also be said here that private servers suffer a multitude of bugs, downtime, rollbacks, glitches, bugged raids and so on that you almost never get on official servers, so those people are actually paying to receive a lower quality product than the original but still they do pay.

[Sildor]

It would maybe be fun for a short time but the essence of a MMO is new content, and without any new content it'll die out fast.

I think legacy realms would work good to show how much the game has actually developed since, WoW was brilliant back in the days, but a legacy realm today would just be bland.

[Deleted]

This seems like the wrong place to make a thread like this, given that this forum is pretty pro-blizzard.

Regardless, I think that simply having relams fixed on a single expansion wouldn't work. Instead, why not do what Everquest did and have progression servers. Start with Vanilla content locked at Molten Core, and unlock new content over time.

Maybe give players the option to stay on an expansions rather than advance.

Edit: Also, why do people get so defensive about vanilla servers? You would be under no obligation to play on them, why do you want to stop the people who do from having them? It's not has if Blizzard would immediately implode if they released a few vanilla servers.

[Meatboll]

Legacy realm would turn into ghost town few months after release... I'd like Blizz to add one legacy realm so that people could finally releaize that what they remember is nostalgia and would finally shut up about 'bringing back good wow' or whatever pink tainted glasses show them...

How exactly would that be any different than now?

[Deleted]

I'd definitely start playing again if Vanilla realms came back, too good of an RPG to pass up on that opportunity.

[Sliske]

I would play current realms for raiding. Go to WOTLK for pvp funsies and maybe Vanilla for world PVP and atmosphere.

[Deletedaccount1]

No I wouldn't, it would ruin the nostalgia imo. I think at that time I was under the impression the game was better than it really was compared to right now.

[-Superman-]

Edit: Also, why do people get so defensive about vanilla servers? You would be under no obligation to play on them, why do you want to stop the people who do from having them? It's not has if Blizzard would immediately implode if they released a few vanilla servers.

I don't think it is so much "getting defensive" about it as it is getting tired of people asking for it. Blizz has stated on MULTIPLE occasions how this would be a step backwards and not worth the cost of the servers to purchase, code, and maintain. Here is a summary of their stance:

Summary of Blizz’s public stance:

1. Blizz does not believe there are enough people interested in utilizing this idea long term to justify the various costs necessary to bring it about. (see reference below for comments re “a small minority”)

2. Blizz feels this idea is counter to the nature of MMO’s; non-progression equates to stagnation and eventual boredom. (see reference below for comments re “it’s not a very good idea”)

3. The original game code does not exist in that form anymore. All the old data has been replaced, with the newer data which was not saved (archived) for later reuse. It was over-written and destroyed. “There is no switch to flip on the realms to roll back years of patches and changes…” (see extended Blizzard quote below). In keeping with the sentiment expressed in #2, above, it’s gone – never to return. Even if it were “recoverable” by other means it would still require lengthy and expensive rewrite, a task Blizzard has denied interest in. Which leads to…

4. They have no plans or desire to recreate the original version(s). They refer to the notion of attempting to do so as “a logistical nightmare,”… and in keeping with their stance in #1, above the time, money and resources required are prohibitive and unjustified. (see below for comments re “it really doesn’t get much use” and “it’s not as simple as people make it out to be”)

To paraphrase it all: “Too much cost, too little interest and it’s not what the game is about… we’re not doing it.”

Proponents are adamant it is a good thing and continue to post it (in various forms), sometimes multiple times a day, despite heavy resistance.

Analogies:
Those who argue for “Classic”, “Vanilla”, “Old Content”, “Old Expansion”, “Old Style”, “Old School”, “Realm Specific”, “Locked Progression”, “Throwback”, “Vintage”, “Retro”, “Past Era”, “Legacy”, “Expansion”, “Expansion Specific”, “Premium”, "Non-casual", (or any other variant thereof) servers frequently fail to put real thought into their idea. Consider how this would work in similar situations in other venues.

The movie industry:
“The earliest days of film were so much better; we really had fun and such a sense of adventure. We really had to work at understanding what was going on and those that couldn’t read the subtitles were just bad. We want special theaters that play only silent films (Vanilla), those were so awesome and we miss them so much. For those that want black and white “talkies” (BC) we can maybe have some that do those too, but no further. Technicolor (WotLK) is where the studios went wrong and this fancy Bullet-Time fx (Cata) junk is just taking the whole thing in the wrong direction…Blizz, fix it now! Give us our silent films back!”

The auto industry:
We want our Model-T’s back (Vanilla)… Henry Ford’s stuff was so awesome (blah, blah)…We could support maybe the Mustang (BC), but no further (blah, blah)… Datsun’s 280Z (WotLK) is where it all went wrong (blah, blah)…Chrysler Minivans (Cata) are just too bad to deal with (blah, blah)…

Proponents are asking either for (a) regression to the past where things were not better than they are now…and want to drag everyone else in the game with them… or (b) the ability to segregate themselves from everyone else so they can indulge in their nostalgia. Not only does the majority of the player base not want that, neither does Blizzard. Not enough people want it to justify the costs of doing it and… most importantly… it goes against the progressive vision the company -- and players -- have for the game as a whole.

You will have no better chance of getting Blizzard to do this than you would convincing the movie industry to revert to silent, black and white only films or the auto industry to revert to producing nothing but cars like the Model-T.

Proponents seem to believe that, despite the age of the game and the number of people who play, that they are --

1. The first person bright enough to have come up with this idea. They are wrong.

or

2. They seem to believe that Blizzard is:

a. Incompetent -- in that Blizz failed to do the research on this idea to determine if it is marketable (wrong).

b. Stupid -- in that Blizz did do the research and failed to interpret the data from such research correctly (wrong).

Blizzard has addressed this issue publicly many times. Take some time and read all that stuff and maybe you'll start to get an idea of what's involved.

Blizzard specific references on the issue:

A. We were at one time internally discussing the possibility fairly seriously, but the long term interest in continued play on them couldn't justify the extremely large amount of development and support resources it would take to implement and maintain them. We'd effectively be developing and supporting two different games.
Drysc (CM), Feb 21, 2008
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/6...lassic-servers

B. We occasionally see requests for us to open pre-TBC realms, or classic realms if you prefer. Lately there have also been requests for pre-WotLK realms, and I am sure that once the next expansion pack is released there will be requests for pre-Cataclysm realms as well. We have answered these requests quite a few times now saying that we have no plans to open such realms, and this is still the case today.

We have no plans to open classic realms or limited expansion content realms, and you should not expect to see the opening of such realms with the launch of Cataclysm either.

We realize that some of you feel that the classic game was more fun than the current game, and as a result would like to revel in nostalgia; the developers however prefer to keep the game moving forward as they want the game to continuously evolve and progress.
Vaneras (CM), Nov 28, 2009
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...igional-realms

C. We have no plans of making pre-TBC realms. This goes against the very nature of an MMO and would be a logistical nightmare. There's no switch to flip on the realms to roll back years of patches and changes, and we don't intend to invent one so that a very small minority of players can play what we feel would be an inferior cousin of the World of Warcraft of today.
Zarhym (CM), April 27, 2010
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...the-wow-killer

D. Question: The whole topic of classic servers has been popping up on the forums, always on yours - I assume with the release of Cataclysm there's this huge wave of nostalgia here because you can't play in the old world anymore. Is this something you might consider doing after the Cataclysm launch?

Chilton: Currently, my answer would be probably not. The reason I say that is because any massively multiplayer game that has pretty much ever existed and has ever done any expansions has always gotten the nostalgia of, "Oh God, wouldn't it be great if we could have classic servers!" and more than anything else that generally proves to be nostalgia. In most cases - in almost all cases - the way it ends up playing out is that the game wasn't as good back then as people remember it being and then when those servers become available, they go play there for a little bit and quickly remember that it wasn’t quite as good as what they remembered in their minds and they don’t play there anymore and you set up all these servers and you dedicated all this hardware to it and it really doesn't get much use. So, for me, the historical lesson is that it's not a very good idea to do *laughs* - it's a great idea to talk about.
Tom Chilton (lead game designer), Aug 20, 2010
http://www.wowhead.com/news=166540/e...tails-and-more (approx. half way down page)

E. Never say never, but developing for and supporting multiple codebases (while possible) would very unlikely be worth it. It's really not as simple as people make it out to be. Those playing on a 'classic' server would still require support, and absolutely still request bug fixes, changes, additions, content, etc.

The notion that the game frozen in time with no patches, no new content, no changes, would be fun to play forever, is in my opinion a very clouded vision of how it would actually play out.Bashiok (CM), April 21, 2011 (emphasis added)
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2416153275#6

F. https://twitter.com/ghostcrawler/sta...81503165054976
Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street, Dec 31, 2012

Additionally, read this player post that might remind you of some of what you “miss” about Vanilla WoW:

G. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...1718715?page=1

H. WowInsider has a similar negative view:
May 2, 2012
http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/05/02/5-...one/#continued

Also –

I. I work for a software company with corporate customers. Each of them has rather more invested in equipment than a PC gamer, and they like paying for upgrades even less.

Our products have been advancing technologically over time in a gradual fashion, so as not to lose the customers with the oldest equipment. However, things like operating system support and hardware version support are outside our control--which means we have to keep slowly advancing the requirements, and adjust existing code to match. Over time that means stuff eventually falls off the list of what we can support, because our code, gradually upgraded as it is, starts to require OS or hardware features the oldest equipment can't support.

We couldn't turn the clock back ten years, or probably even five, if we wanted to.

Blizz is no doubt in the same pickle. They've changed their database structure, upgraded the graphics, and likely done a lot of more subtle stuff over the last seven years that makes it fundamentally impossible to support Vanilla code, even assuming that code still exists in pristine form somewhere.

MOP will, as I understand it, very likely require at least a duo core CPU. That's another significant difference that can't be rolled back.

Therefore: what the Vanilla crowd is actually asking for is the development of new code to duplicate old code. That's not easy or cheap, and is going to compete directly for resources with development of current content. There would have to be a monumental ground surge of interest to make it feasible, an order of magnitude greater than what has ever been exhibited on the forums.

TLDR: That's not how software works.[Note: This post, originally found at http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...0659727?page=2 has been subsequently deleted by Blizzard – reason(s) unknown]

From the EU forums, Feb 23, 2011

J. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1751857331

K. MMOChampion poll about whether Blizz should have such servers:
(June 19, 2012)
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...a-or-BC-server

L. It's a line Blizzard has drawn from way back when, yet suggestions or requests for classic realms continue to pop up on the forums. Let me tell you here and now... don't bother. Blizzard will eventually just lock your thread or delete it entirely simply because it's not in their best interests to provide such a service.

M. http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/03/13/no...realms-really/ Mar 13, 2009

N. The following is a list of 22 threads posted on the issue from Feb 10, 2013 through March 12, 2013 (just over 30 days). It demonstrates how frequently this topic is raised and how thoroughly it is rejected… every time.

One Server to Rule Them All: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8197650388
Thoughts on a Pre-BC Server Only: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...6600825?page=1
Possibility of restarting old expansion: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8198640337
A realistic look at classic servers: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...7910153?page=1
Bring back vanilla WoW servers!: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8196600603
Would You Be Willing To…: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...8048102?page=1
New servers please: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8155915912
Hardcore WoW Server Ideas: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8088209358
Retro Realms: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8087999204
Give Us: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...0249478?page=1
Vanilla Servers: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7980168520
Well well well…: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...9928536?page=1
Vanilla WoW <3: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...9988230?page=1
Bring Back Vanilla Servers: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7979938240
Old Expansion Servers, Maybe?: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7923034653
Would pay for cata/wrath server: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...3723991?page=1
Dedicated BC Server?: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7924374057
Throwback/Classic Servers?: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7924334037
New Servers: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7924333940
Why does Blizz not do Past Era server?: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7924143833
I know this is beating a dead horse but…: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7923723634
I’ll pay extra for Vanilla!: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...5168495?page=1

Here's a summation of the major points:

“No.” Drysc (CM), Feb 21, 2008, MMOChampion interview: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/6...lassic-servers

“No.” Zach Yonzon, Mar 13, 2009, WoWInsider editorial: http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/03/13/no...-realms-really

“No.” Vaneras (CM), Nov 28, 2009, MMOChampion interview: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...igional-realms

“No.” Zarhym (CM), Apr 27, 2010, MMOChampion interview: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1...the-wow-killer

“No.” Tom Chilton (Lead Designer), Aug 20, 2010, WoWHead News interview: http://www.wowhead.com/news=166540/e...tails-and-more (approx. half way down page)

“No.” Consensus of opinion, Feb 23, 2011, EU Forums: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1751857331

“No.” Bashiok, (CM), April 21, 2011, WoW General Discussion Forums:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2416153275#6

“No.” Anne Stickney, May 2, 2012, WowInsider editorial: http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/05/02/5-...one/#continued

“No.” Consensus of opinion, June 19, 2012, MMOChampion reader poll: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...a-or-BC-server

“No.” Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street, Dec 31, 2012, https://twitter.com/ghostcrawler/sta...81503165054976

[Meatboll]

They'll have plenty of left over servers once the mergers finally happen, there's no need to buy new ones.

[Tofifi]

Waste of resources, it will never be the same. People will instantly remmember the many, many flaws that WoW had, which so easily remain unnoted through the nostalgia goggles. Not to mention you will run out of things to do pretty fast. Not counting months of super exciting quests to get to level 60.

[Sturmbringe]

Waste of resources, it will never be the same. People will instantly remmember the many, many flaws that WoW had, which so easily remain unnoted through the nostalgia goggles. Not to mention you will run out of things to do pretty fast. Not counting months of super exciting quests to get to level 60.

What flaws? Vanilla didn't have any serious flaws in my opinion. The only thing I really hated was corpse-running to Blackrock Mountain but that could be avoided by having your hunters FD prior to the wipe and res healers through the jumper cables, which is what we did thus side-stepping the problem.

The more this subject gets brought up in the forums and the more interest in it at the official forums, the more likely Blizzard are to give in to their fans (all the more now that the game is hemorrhaging subscribtions every day). Don't forget that Jack the guy who lives in a barn outside of town is very well able to run a Vanilla, TBC and WOTLK private server with a very minor investment. If Jack can do it at minimal expense, so can Blizzard.

[Deleted]

I don't think it is so much "getting defensive" about it as it is getting tired of people asking for it. Blizz has stated on MULTIPLE occasions how this would be a step backwards and not worth the cost of the servers to purchase, code, and maintain. Here is a summary of their stance:

Summary of Blizz’s public stance:

1. Blizz does not believe there are enough people interested in utilizing this idea long term to justify the various costs necessary to bring it about. (see reference below for comments re “a small minority”)

2. Blizz feels this idea is counter to the nature of MMO’s; non-progression equates to stagnation and eventual boredom. (see reference below for comments re “it’s not a very good idea”)

3. The original game code does not exist in that form anymore. All the old data has been replaced, with the newer data which was not saved (archived) for later reuse. It was over-written and destroyed. “There is no switch to flip on the realms to roll back years of patches and changes…” (see extended Blizzard quote below). In keeping with the sentiment expressed in #2, above, it’s gone – never to return. Even if it were “recoverable” by other means it would still require lengthy and expensive rewrite, a task Blizzard has denied interest in. Which leads to…

4. They have no plans or desire to recreate the original version(s). They refer to the notion of attempting to do so as “a logistical nightmare,”… and in keeping with their stance in #1, above the time, money and resources required are prohibitive and unjustified. (see below for comments re “it really doesn’t get much use” and “it’s not as simple as people make it out to be”)

1. Clearly there is some interest, since plenty of people keep asking for it. And would it really cost that much? Activison/Blizzard are swimming in money, surely they can spare a few developers and webmasters to put together a server or two.
2. Why would making a legacy realm get in the way of their current development?
3. Well thats just stupid. What sort of software company doesn't keep archives of old versions of their software? Thats a disaster waiting to happen.What if, for example, they needed to roll back to an ealier version due to a system destroying bug that wasn't noticed till a patch had been deployed?

Edit:

Don't forget that Jack the guy who lives in a barn outside of town is very well able to run a Vanilla, TBC and WOTLK private server with a very minor investment. If Jack can do it at minimal expense, so can Blizzard.

This. I seriously don't believe that the cost of opening a legacy realm would be that prohibative for Blizzard when people have created fairly functional emulations of the server software in their free time.

[Deleted]

I can see why Blizzard would want to avoid Legacy realms, because why waste time with old content instead of new content?

If it ever happened, I'd definitely make a TBC and WOTLK character.

[smegmage]

I played on the Feenix private for a while. It's cool to go back and progress through content, but it's not the same. No surprises to it, nothing is new, it's just not the feel of old. Prior to spending time on Feenix, I'd be all over a vanilla realm but now I know it's different. Best to let the awesome memories remain memories.

[Deleted]

I played it once and I don't have any need to play it again.

It wouldn't actually do the job that it needs to, which is to show people how the game used to be - players now know where all the zones are, the layout of the maps, and tactics for the bosses from zerging them now etc - you couldn't possibly replicate what we had then. It would follow from the same reasoning that my main has still only got 11/12hc ICC - some things were special because I was there at the time and experienced it with my friends and enjoyed myself. You can't translate that into a server, so no.

[Darsithis]

I would stop paying Bioware for SWTOR and re-sub to Blizzard.

I don't know if you are following the Private Server scene. The most successful private servers now require monthly donations (via Paypal) to skip queues and they have also started private shops online when people shop gear for their toons or vanity mounts through paypal again.

So, some of them are paying already. Why not paying the same fee to Blizzard? It should also be said here that private servers suffer a multitude of bugs, downtime, rollbacks, glitches, bugged raids and so on that you almost never get on official servers, so those people are actually paying to receive a lower quality product than the original but still they do pay.

I've only played on one private server before so I'm far from an expert, of course, but I still can't imagine the huge casual playerbase (myself included), enjoying a classic realm for long. I only did it myself so I could see Auberdine again.

[Maiset]

I would not play it, there is no goals after you completed the content. No new content means that it will turn into a grind which will get boring after a while. Vanilla would have no real competition for me to find interesting. No race for world firsts after the content is cleared, no rankings for pvp. It would be fun for a few months maybe, but once i had completed it, it would get repetitive and boring.