[5.3] Flameglow is getting nerfed... in a STUPID way.

[Polarthief]

Could just be someone dodging a ban. I used to do that back in the day when i got ba-I MEAN I DID NO SUCH THING EVER...

Lol.

Isn't that against da rules though?

Also you know me, I get suspended ALL the damn time. I take them like a man. *chuckle*

[Mini]

The easy fix to the problem of highly penalizing short-tick-time abilities is to make the damage absorption proportional to the time since the last flameglow absorb. This would function similar to the internal calculations used for RPPM trinkets (except the proc chance is 100%, so there's no RNG). The engine is already capable of tracking mechanics like this for ToT trinkets, so it would 'easy' for the devs to implement this because it's just tracking the time of the last proc and then changing the formula (yes I know it's not THAT easy, but it doesn't require a new animation or spellID, etc.).

The current Flameglow model is:

Flameglow Absorb = min(30% of hit, 20% SP) )

The new and improved Flameglow could look like:

Flameglow Absorb = min(x% of hit, y% SP * min(TimeSinceLastProc, z) )

This way, dots (or small melee attacks) that tick every 1s aren't reduced any more than dots that tick every 3 seconds. It also gives the devs more knobs to tune the total damage reduction, periodic damage reduction, and burst damage reduction. This would hopefully allow flameglow to be made more useful in PvE (where dots tick once per 3s on average) without being completely imbalanced in PvP (where a player may be getting damage 10+ times per second).

Some hypothetical numbers (don't get too angry about these, they're only an example):
-x = 80%
-y = 20%
-z = 8 seconds
-Assume SP=20k (reasonable for this season's PvP)

So the maximum absorb would be 160% of spellpower (32k) and could only be achieved after 8 seconds of not being hit at all. This is about half of Ice Barrier.
The maximum HPS would be limited at 20% of spellpower per second. In current gear, this is about 4k HPS.
The maximum single-hit reduction would be 80%. The maximum hit which could receive full reduction would be 40k.

As long as y*z < 330%, Ice Barrier will still provide more burst absorb (not to mention being controllable), so it will still be a useful talent choice in some situations





I was going to post this directly in the Blue thread, but I don't have an EU account so I can't. If you think this is a good idea then put it in that Blue thread.

[Polarthief]

The easy fix to the problem of highly penalizing short-tick-time abilities is to make the damage absorption proportional to the time since the last flameglow absorb. This would function similar to the internal calculations used for RPPM trinkets (except the proc chance is 100%, so there's no RNG).

That sounds like a super-complex way of saying "ICD with 100% procc rate"

Still though, your idea looks good. Perhaps shoot them a forum post? (Not in Mage forums because they don't check Class forums)

Idk, just something needs to be done to FG to make it viable in PvP, and balanced with TS/IB for PvE.

---------- Post added 2013-05-12 at 03:48 PM ----------

I was going to post this directly in the Blue thread, but I don't have an EU account so I can't. If you think this is a good idea then put it in that Blue thread.

You can put it on one of the CM's twitters, or just make a US thread in DD and put a link to the EU forum post, saying "Since I can't post there, this is sort of a way to post to them". I'm pretty sure the EU and US things are linked... somewhat.

TBH I think it's dumb that we can't post on the EU forums with a US account. (And vice versa, obviously)

[Blivy]

Source: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/260412-flameglow/

I honestly cannot understand what goes through dev's minds sometimes. They cannot be this retarded, can they?
.

Yes, yes they can.

[Dorrinal]

Frothing? I don't use the damn thing. I just think it's silly to nerf a talent for DoTs when it didn't even touch the issue.

Glad to know someone who joined two months ago with 5 posts already hates my guts though.

Could just be someone dodging a ban. I used to do that back in the day when i got ba-I MEAN I DID NO SUCH THING EVER...

Lies and slander all of it! I am really new here and I don't hate Dragon9870, I mean... do you read his posts? Half of them read like he is screaming at the monitor and slamming on the keyboard. (We get it. Blizzard has made a few wrong turns regarding our class this expansion.) All of his threads have the highest entertainment-to-post ratio.

[Polarthief]

Yes, yes they can.

Oh, right, we're talking about the same people that made the L90 Mage talents at launch, instantly becoming hypocrites about their Talent philosophy about having balanced "choices" that don't affect DPS. My bad

Lies and slander all of it! I am really new here and I don't hate Dragon9870, I mean... do you read his posts? Half of them read like he is screaming at the monitor and slamming on the keyboard. (We get it. Blizzard has made a few wrong turns regarding our class this expansion.) All of his threads have the highest entertainment-to-post ratio.

Okay, but I'm not "frothing" as you put it >_>;

Plus, I BARELY posted during March-April :3

[TacTican]

Lies and slander all of it! I am really new here and I don't hate Dragon9870, I mean... do you read his posts? Half of them read like he is screaming at the monitor and slamming on the keyboard. (We get it. Blizzard has made a few wrong turns regarding our class this expansion.) All of his threads have the highest entertainment-to-post ratio.

Spoilers: He raids like that too.

... Dragon, why are you giving my DKP the evil eye?

More on track: this is a moronic track. People griping about Flameglow being way too good against DoTs. Blizzard's response: "k, we'll nerf the scaling so that it's still good against DoTs and still useless against massive attacks". About the only thing that it (slightly) alleviates is ... medium attack speeds for medium damage, so ... I guess it makes Enhancement Shamans slightly better against Mages?

[Polarthief]

Spoilers: He raids like that too.

... Dragon, why are you giving my DKP the evil eye?

More on track: this is a moronic track. People griping about Flameglow being way too good against DoTs. Blizzard's response: "k, we'll nerf the scaling so that it's still good against DoTs and still useless against massive attacks". About the only thing that it (slightly) alleviates is ... medium attack speeds for medium damage, so ... I guess it makes Enhancement Shamans slightly better against Mages?

I raid with screaming? The only time I get loud is when we repeatedly wipe to moronic things, e.g., people Ionizing the water on H Jin.

... I don't know how to respond to that.

I barely PvP so I don't know how well Flameglow actually was, but I'm aware enough that this "nerf" will not affect its intended purpose.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Flameglow was good enough that people in high end PVP were taking it even against things like warriors and other mages. Do I agree with this method of change? Not really. Did it need to be nerfed? Entirely.

[Polarthief]

Flameglow was good enough that people in high end PVP were taking it even against things like warriors and other mages. Do I agree with this method of change? Not really. Did it need to be nerfed? Entirely.

Nerfed, yes, but it's nerfed incorrectly is what I'm getting at. I agree it needed nerfing against DoTs, but this just makes the thing practically useless.

Lower the cap threshold and increase the SP coefficient if they didn't want to do something fancy/practical, like Mini said at the top of this page.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

That was also the arrangement brought up by a multi-glad mage I was talking to. But the problem with that, is that it overshadows TS/IB in PVE.

[mrgreenthump]

That was also the arrangement brought up by a multi-glad mage I was talking to. But the problem with that, is that it overshadows TS/IB in PVE.

hmm, not really unless you bring the absorb to 20k or more. And honestly.. mages kinda need that atm in PvE.

[Polarthief]

That was also the arrangement brought up by a multi-glad mage I was talking to. But the problem with that, is that it overshadows TS/IB in PVE.

hmm, not really unless you bring the absorb to 20k or more. And honestly.. mages kinda need that atm in PvE.

Not if you buff IB. TS will always be... well, I consider it more a defensive cooldown than IB/FG. IB/FG feel more like "passive damage reduction" while TS is a counter to mechanics.

And yes, we desperately need some form of damage reduction. I'm tired of being #3 on damage taken on fights that have NOTHING bad to stand in while our Warlock is not only 10th, but so far in last place that it's just so unfair.

[Daswolfen]

I can fix all the talents. Remove PVP from the game and then they wont have to do any nerfing save for some minor damage adjustment. Balancing for the minority who participate in PVP ruins it for the majority that play PVE.

[Polarthief]

I can fix all the talents. Remove PVP from the game and then they wont have to do any nerfing save for some minor damage adjustment. Balancing for the minority who participate in PVP ruins it for the majority that play PVE.

Or finally stop being retarded and do the PvE/PvP split that they've been slowly doing since Lich King introduced Deep Freeze (PvE)?

If all spells had two separate functions: Hitting NPCs and hitting Players/their pets and minions, they could EASILY tweak either or, and not both simultaneously.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

hmm, not really unless you bring the absorb to 20k or more. And honestly.. mages kinda need that atm in PvE.

If memory serves, the idea was roughly doubling it to 35-40% SP, as has been suggested in this thread and many before it, so that'd be in the 12-15k range. At that point we'd have a flat 15% reduction against most hits until we started getting into ~85k single hits. That's still really damned strong, though we have to give up a defensive CD to get it. But there's reason enough to take it over IB against hard hitters still. They could potentially do that and let the absorb work with battle fatigue/PVP power, which would nerf the PVP side pretty hard while letting it be amazing in PVE, but it's still a passive. It shouldn't be better than the other two simply because it's a passive and always on.

Not if you buff IB. TS will always be... well, I consider it more a defensive cooldown than IB/FG. IB/FG feel more like "passive damage reduction" while TS is a counter to mechanics.

And yes, we desperately need some form of damage reduction. I'm tired of being #3 on damage taken on fights that have NOTHING bad to stand in while our Warlock is not only 10th, but so far in last place that it's just so unfair.

IB doesn't need a buff, though. It's already really good for what it is. Compare it to PW:S on shadow. Yes, they have heals, whatever. 330% SP is amazing.

TS doesn't really work as a defensive CD because it doesn't prevent damage. It doesn't save your ass if you're sitting at 80% health as interrupting jolt goes out. It'll help your healers if you both survive it, and they don't ignore the heal on you. Good luck with that, they want to rank just as much as we do. I should know, I ran it the entirety of T14.

If TS had like a 20% damage reduction tied to it as well, it and G.invis would be absolutely perfect to cover our defensive CD needs, and they can nerf FG however they hell they like. People, myself included sometimes, really underestimate G.invis as a defensive CD. Being able to eat thunderstruck, point blank, on H25 is amusing. Honestly without a passive damage reduction, a 20% on TS would just fit us. It's short enough in both CD and duration that it wouldn't be too overpowered if you consider the lack of passives, and gives us something to ACTUALLY hit for things like interrupting jolt, and allows us to eat matter swap almost as well as a warlock. We wouldn't die/proc cauterize at random during P1 Twins if both the crash and the fire are aimed at you at the same time.

[Polarthief]

TS doesn't really work as a defensive CD because it doesn't prevent damage. It doesn't save your ass if you're sitting at 80% health as interrupting jolt goes out. It'll help your healers if you both survive it, and they don't ignore the heal on you. Good luck with that, they want to rank just as much as we do. I should know, I ran it the entirety of T14.

Sorry that YOUR healers work like that. Ours don't and I tell them when TS is healing. I'll say "Healing that" after a big AoE or raid mechanic comes (Ionization for example), which tells them "Hey, this is being healed from Temporal Shield. Don't waste your mana".

(Also dunno if you raid 25 mans, but I'd imagine that would devalue TS greatly in comparison to 10s)

If TS had like a 20% damage reduction tied to it as well, it and G.invis would be absolutely perfect to cover our defensive CD needs, and they can nerf FG however they hell they like. People, myself included sometimes, really underestimate G.invis as a defensive CD. Being able to eat thunderstruck, point blank, on H25 is amusing. Honestly without a passive damage reduction, a 20% on TS would just fit us. It's short enough in both CD and duration that it wouldn't be too overpowered if you consider the lack of passives, and gives us something to ACTUALLY hit for things like interrupting jolt, and allows us to eat matter swap almost as well as a warlock. We wouldn't die/proc cauterize at random during P1 Twins if both the crash and the fire are aimed at you at the same time.

That's actually a good point because it is wasted if it procs Cauterize.

I underestimate G Invis because I refuse to raid w/o Cauterize (because we HAVE no reduction and the lowest HP pool in the game). It just lets me feel so safe whenever it's up.

Too bad Blizzard's logic has become retarded logic when it comes to things like this.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Sorry that YOUR healers work like that. Ours don't and I tell them when TS is healing. I'll say "Healing that" after a big AoE or raid mechanic comes (Ionization for example), which tells them "Hey, this is being healed from Temporal Shield. Don't waste your mana".

(Also dunno if you raid 25 mans, but I'd imagine that would devalue TS greatly in comparison to 10s)

Fair enough. It's something that does happen quite often, though. We seem to have gotten rid of the one who demanded we underhealed things continuously for rankings, thankfully. And yeah, 25. Lots of ambient healing going around, monk tank's statue tends to throw 400k bubbles on my face in addition to disc/pally bubbles, which tends to mess up my timing for things I'd want to use it on. Things monk healer mists+uplift, group based PoH, general AOE, there's just no real escaping it turning into almost pure overhealing in 25 outside of a handful of specific events.

I underestimate G Invis because I refuse to raid w/o Cauterize (because we HAVE no reduction and the lowest HP pool in the game). It just lets me feel so safe whenever it's up.

Oh, trust me. I know. Being able to have a second chance at failing a mechanic? Having a buffer for healer fail? Bloody amazing. I love cauterize so much. But G.invis lets us eat some mechanics with essentially no damage, and it's on a shorter CD. It's really really powerful if you're careful enough that cauterize isn't a consideration or a thing that tends to proc on a given fight. As I said, H25 Lei Shen's thunderstuck becomes laughable damage, less than you'd take at range without a CD. Static shock can be solo absorbed repeatedly between it and ice block.

[Polarthief]

Fair enough. It's something that does happen quite often, though. We seem to have gotten rid of the one who demanded we underhealed things continuously for rankings, thankfully. And yeah, 25. Lots of ambient healing going around, monk tank's statue tends to throw 400k bubbles on my face in addition to disc/pally bubbles, which tends to mess up my timing for things I'd want to use it on. Things monk healer mists+uplift, group based PoH, general AOE, there's just no real escaping it turning into almost pure overhealing in 25 outside of a handful of specific events.



Oh, trust me. I know. Being able to have a second chance at failing a mechanic? Having a buffer for healer fail? Bloody amazing. I love cauterize so much. But G.invis lets us eat some mechanics with essentially no damage, and it's on a shorter CD. It's really really powerful if you're careful enough that cauterize isn't a consideration or a thing that tends to proc on a given fight. As I said, H25 Lei Shen's thunderstuck becomes laughable damage, less than you'd take at range without a CD. Static shock can be solo absorbed repeatedly between it and ice block.

Yeah like I said, huge difference

Still, I feel unsafe when I don't have Cauterize due to my horrendous damage incoming.

Granted, I should try using it on H Jin. Would make Ionization completely laughable. You should try doing 10s sometimes and just see how frail you really feel without Cauterize (it's saved us from so many wipes, actually).

[Magpai]

Surely this small change is not worth all this cursing and anger.

Okay, so I guess Soul Link doesn't count at all. (50% reduction; that 50% is sent to their pet instead)

That is NOT how soul link works.