Incanter's Ward getting a PvP Nerf

[Polarthief]

I exchanged some emails with Lhivera earlier today. He wasn't considering the GCD time cost initially, so it seemed fine to him. I hope I got him to understand that it's going to be an utterly worthless talent for PvE if the only change is what was said in the blue post. I calculated a quick scenario where a during a raid fight the ability was used during constant raid damage 5 times, 9 times with slightly delayed raid damage (6 second delay) and 5 times where the mage failed to take any damage. The average DPS boost turned out to be 6.2%, so only fractionally better than the passive.

TBH I wouldn't rely on Lhiv for anything Mage-like nowadays. He doesn't even play his seriously and enjoys these talents for daily and dungeon grinding...

[Tiga]

TBH I wouldn't rely on Lhiv for anything Mage-like nowadays. He doesn't even play his seriously and enjoys these talents for daily and dungeon grinding...

He still knows quite well how the mechanics work and has access to developers. It was just one of the channels I tried to use to communicate that I'm not happy with this change unless it comes with other buffs for the talent that were not mentioned in the blue post today.

[mrgreenthump]

He still knows quite well how the mechanics work and has access to developers. It was just one of the channels I tried to use to communicate that I'm not happy with this change unless it comes with other buffs for the talent that were not mentioned in the blue post today.

Yet he has time and time shown that he really knows nothing abt current problems that mages have in raiding..

[Polarthief]

He still knows quite well how the mechanics work and has access to developers. It was just one of the channels I tried to use to communicate that I'm not happy with this change unless it comes with other buffs for the talent that were not mentioned in the blue post today.

Yet he has time and time shown that he really knows nothing abt current problems that mages have in raiding..

Not to keep talking about Lhiv, but I feel like he just brown noses anything that the devs do. I haven't seen him say something against any of Blizzard's designs in awhile.

(Enough to also make the devs add a NPC after him in Townlong Steppes...)

[Mini]

PvE Heroic Raider Perspective (10/13H atm):

So there's officially no difference in our level 90 talents now (unless you're playing Arcane and care about mana). Seems there's no reason to pick anything other than Invocation unless you can literally be stationary for an entire minute, then you should pick RoP.

Invocation:
-Damage Increase = 15% damage
-Duration = 60 seconds
-Mana = 60% of total mana restored in 2 seconds, -50% regen for duration
-Cast Time= 3 second channel (2 globals)
-Loss of Uptime = 3.3-5% (minus the one you can do pre-pull)
-Other penalty = need to stand still for 3 seconds

Rune of Power
-Damage Increase = 15%
-Duration: while standing in RoP (up to 60 seconds)
-Mana = +75% regen, only if you're in the RoP
-Cast Time= 1.5 second cast, each time you want one
-Loss of Uptime = Loss of 1.6-2.5% uptime per (average RoP's per minute)
-Other penalty = cannot leave a 5 yard radius

Incanter's Ward
-Damage Increase = 15% (active), 6% (passive when off CD)
-Duration: 25 seconds
-Mana = 18% max mana on shield break (+65% passive when off CD)
-Cast Time= 1 global (instant cast)
-Loss of Uptime = 4-6%
-Other penalty = Need to take about 30k damage to activate. If you fail to take enough damage (or if you've got IB or PW:S and those absorbs take the damage instead of IW) you lose the passive and active bonuses until the CD is up again

-In PvE, IW is only going to be a 3-5% DPS increase to cast at all. You lose the 6% passive plus one global every 25s (4-6% uptime, depending on haste) for 15% damage for 25s. That's also assuming you can find some fire to stand in EVERY 25s and never waste one IW.

----------------

Conclusion:
Seems like Invocation will now be superior in every way unless there's a fight where you literally can't stop for 2 globals per minute (use IW) or a fight where you can be stationary for an entire minute (use RoP). Neither of those situations occur very often.

As if the "keep up a maintenance buff" level 90 talents weren't bad enough already, now they're all the same... 15% with continuous uptime on all three talents. At least before we had some illusion that our talent choice had some impact on our play. Now we know that isn't the case (unless you're Arcane).

Sadly, this PvP-oriented nerf is also a nerf to PvE mages as well. Not only is the average damage increase of IW decreasing, but also the potential to use it more creatively. It was an obvious choice to use all CD's while Incanter's Energy was active for the extra %dmg modifier, which at least required a modicum of talent to plan for... now every mage can faceroll Invocation to victory!

[Puri]

(or if you've got IB or PW:S and those absorbs take the damage instead of IW)

No idea about PW:S, but it will get absorbed before IB.

[Proakryt]

Conclusion:
Seems like Invocation will now be superior in every way unless there's a fight where you literally can't stop for 2 globals per minute (use IW) or a fight where you can be stationary for an entire minute (use RoP). Neither of those situations occur very often.

Now that all the talents are the same 15% damage increase there is no point in picking anything other than invocation. Your math just shows what is obvious by looking at the talents. You sacrifice no mobility and get a minute up time for 2 globals, plus we can pre-cast it and the refresh during down time, ex: between meg's heads, dead zone, Leishen intermission, etc. Unless you can guarantee constant ticking damage to pop IW every CD then its not even worth considering fort PvE.

I mean why not choose the easiest talent when it performs no differently. Even now IW provides at the absolute best a marginal damage increase for 3x the effort; why change it to 2x the effort for at best equal performance?

[Terahertz]

No idea about PW:S, but it will get absorbed before IB.

IW is first in priority to absorb damage.

[Tiga]

Good summary post from Mini.

I think the only possible conclusion is that Blizzard has determined that IW isn't use in PvE anyway, so they may as well ruin it there and see if that helps PvP balance. The correct approach would be to figure out why it's not being used in PvE and try to fix it so that it isn't a problem for PvP balance either. I'm hoping they realise their mistake before it's too late - like they occasionally do.

[iggie]

Sadly, this PvP-oriented nerf is also a nerf to PvE mages as well. Not only is the average damage increase of IW decreasing, but also the potential to use it more creatively. It was an obvious choice to use all CD's while Incanter's Energy was active for the extra %dmg modifier, which at least required a modicum of talent to plan for... now every mage can faceroll Invocation to victory!

I like to think of it as a balance, not a nerf. Mages have been in a good state compared to other classes since BC. One of the reasons I made it my pvp alt since then, and I've never had real issues at all.

[mrgreenthump]

I like to think of it as a balance, not a nerf. Mages have been in a good state compared to other classes since BC. One of the reasons I made it my pvp alt since then, and I've never had real issues at all.

Not in PvE atm.. we only have our dps in PvE and that while is good, warlocks can match it.. and bring stuff to the raid and not die from random aoe

[Polarthief]

IW is first in priority to absorb damage.

I can confirm this. IW will always break before PW:S, Guard, Spirit Shell, Divine Aegis, Ice Barrier, and Illuminated Healing.

*Probably missed one*

[gallamann]

Good summary post from Mini.

I think the only possible conclusion is that Blizzard has determined that IW isn't use in PvE anyway, so they may as well ruin it there and see if that helps PvP balance. The correct approach would be to figure out why it's not being used in PvE and try to fix it so that it isn't a problem for PvP balance either. I'm hoping they realise their mistake before it's too late - like they occasionally do.

I agree, they see IW as PvP use only. On the second part, Blizzard doesn't really care as they will scrap these talents with 6.0 meaning they are fine with them as is until then

[Keoren]

Dont forget the lack of mana regen during it for arcane play + less bonus damage

The regeneration part is the biggest issue for arcane, really. If it was looked into, the talent would be more attractive. It is already worth considering due to the uptime during fights with heavy movement.

[Mini]

I can confirm this. IW will always break before PW:S, Guard, Spirit Shell, Divine Aegis, Ice Barrier, and Illuminated Healing.

*Probably missed one*

This is definitely not the case all the time, because just last night I lost about 5 IW's in a row to spirit shell or PW:S from Thunderstruck on Lei Shen. I was actually watching and testing it. Over 100k of absorbs didn't eat through my 35k IW.

[Polarthief]

This is definitely not the case all the time, because just last night I lost about 5 IW's in a row to spirit shell or PW:S from Thunderstruck on Lei Shen. I was actually watching and testing it. Over 100k of absorbs didn't eat through my 35k IW.

Might be some bug. I remember it breaking my IW before anything else last tier. Haven't raided with it this tier. Dunno why they would change that part.

[Terahertz]

This is definitely not the case all the time, because just last night I lost about 5 IW's in a row to spirit shell or PW:S from Thunderstruck on Lei Shen. I was actually watching and testing it. Over 100k of absorbs didn't eat through my 35k IW.

I did a couple of arenas on my mage, and IW absorbed damage before PW:S. I'm not sure about spirit shell, but it seems stupid if IW absorbs AFTER spirit shell.

[Achtalon]

Well Blizzard can rightly be accused of homogenization and PvP hurting PvE--yet again. I can understand why IW was too strong in PvP, but this change sucks. They could just make IW a "only 15% against player targets" and leave it somewhat interesting for PvE. That might be easier said than rewritten, yet as others have pointed out, the level 90 talents are very boring.

[Tiga]

They've done a few things like that based on zone and even gear is scaling in PvP battlegrounds in 5.3. If we really want to keep the current IW for PvE, we could insist that a zone-base change would be better at this point. I bet the developers hate when they have to change spells or items based on zone, so this is the first time I'm even suggesting it.

They could also look at the damage source and base the shield effect on that. Accumulate player damage and environment damage absorbs separately. The player damage would have a lesser effect on the power, but would extend the duration. So if you have X player damage and Y environment damage from a total max of Z shield absorb, the shield duration would be: (X * 25s + Y * 15s) / (X+Y) and the power level would be: (X * 15% + Y * 30%) / Z. If you take pure player damage, you end up with a 15% shield for 25 seconds. If you take pure PvE damage, it's 30% for 15 seconds. A mix of PvE and PvP damage would give you a shield that is in between the two extremes.

A short high power buff does result in more interesting PvE game play than a longer, lower power buff that doesn't have gaps. For instance Alter Time is very powerful with the live version of IW. I guess it's just "too much fun" in PvP.

I've been lobbying for slight buffs to IW for a while now, especially longer shield duration and making it less punishing if you fail to take damage. I think now that they are changing the spell, it would be a good time to address those issues as well.

[Xomniuri]

The worst thing is Incanter's Ward isn't the problem with mage burst in PvP it's Alter Time, which tries to kill me at least once a raid