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  1. #101
    @Felya420 & Didatic

    Talking between the two of you is giving me a headache, with the constant stream of replies needed, so I'll summerise the main point I was making, that has been lost.

    What is happening in the UAE isn't acceptable by our standards, and I don't think it is right to imprison victims, but I think it is even more wrong, to impose our morale views and opinions on another nation. They've built their society to support the needs of Western & Middle-Eastern Businesses. If they start to give more to either side, it becomes too extreme for either party.

    It isn't fair on the girl, and my views on rapists are fairly extreme themselves (Castration as punishment), but to go around trying to moralise their world is what has started almost every war, battle and conflict in the Middle East. Just leave their world alone. If you've not done deals, worked and been to these places and seen the people, you can't pretend to know how it really works.

    I was unable to sit in on an online video meeting with a few people from the Middle East, because they thought I was too pale and untrustworthy. If you don't look right, or they don't trust you, you don't get the deal. The UAE acts as the middle man, they've got the people needed for all your business desires and needs, and you just tell them what you want to be said and done.

    They take a cut, get rich and live happily ever after. If they start allowing women to live a westernised lifestyle, then that Middleman Status is gone.

  2. #102
    The Unstoppable Force Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frolk View Post
    To be safe, stay out of third world contries
    Pretty much this, as a westerner I can say I consider their legal system medieval at best.
    At the same time I know my government and my countriy's corporations happily trade with them, probably with my 'best" interest at hand such as gas etc.

    Easy solution, stay the fuck away from them. I would never ever dream of going there as it is now and that is knowing I would not break any laws or be in any danger.
    Some places are simply too detached from my beliefs to want me to support them even with something like a VAT on a coke at a beach resort.
    Am I right or them? I wont judge apart from what we established as human rights. Stoning... well that is a giver. Do I think they are wrong to ban alocohol? Hell no, that is up to me to adjust to their way of life as a foreigner.

  3. #103
    Deleted
    I know only one person that used to work in UAE and his stay there ended abruptly.

    He was in the back seat of a taxi driven by a UAE citizen that collided with the car of another Citizen. Since his company had experience with these things they had a policy. If something/anything happened, don't identify yourself, call the local legal department immediately. The procedure then is that a company car picks you up, drives you to the airport where a company jet flies you out of the country before anyone finds out what happened and you were even near it.

    They had bad experiences with local police believe believing everything locals say over foreigners and forcing confessions. In the past employees had spent months in prison before being cleared of all charges or they were just released after a period in jail and kicked out of the country.

    Justice (at least for foreigners) is a bit lacking in UAE. One of the reasons I would never work or live there. I like the freedoms and relatively corruption free justice systems we have in western countries.

  4. #104
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by habitsbreaker View Post
    if the uae woke up tomorrow without oil, they have enough money to go on for atlest 20more years
    Considering almost ore than 50% of the UAE's income is based on petroleum, I'd daresay; they could go on, but they'd slip into third world status rather quickly.
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  5. #105
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    So you believe Russia is tapping all of their Oil Fields right now, rather then bringing in a large amount from the Middle East. Also, be warned! A lot of producer numbers don't or do (this is the issue) include any form of filtration and refinement. Take out Refineries & Filtration, then I don't think they're Number 1.
    You are suggesting that the largest oil producer in the world, would violate sanctions to buy oil. You already responded to a guy who's country gets 50% of it's oil from Russia. Your assertion that Russia and China would rush to violate sections, is absurd. Nothing you are saying changes that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Again, see my first point. Got any statistics that prove your point?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrole...stry_in_Russia
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    Turkey isn't a theocracy (as far as I know, anyway). And I would never go to the Vatican; I despise everything it stands for (though I have no beef with Catholicism, I despise theocracy).
    A country with a majority religion is fine... But it isn't automatically a theocracy. A theocracy is a country in which religious dogma is responsible for (at the very least some) legislation. It is a country RULED by religious dogma.
    True that, my apologies, bit tired and read your previous argument wrong. On a second note, I didn't know UAE is a theocracy.

  7. #107
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    @Felya420 & Didatic

    Talking between the two of you is giving me a headache, with the constant stream of replies needed, so I'll summerise the main point I was making, that has been lost.

    What is happening in the UAE isn't acceptable by our standards, and I don't think it is right to imprison victims, but I think it is even more wrong, to impose our morale views and opinions on another nation. They've built their society to support the needs of Western & Middle-Eastern Businesses. If they start to give more to either side, it becomes too extreme for either party.

    It isn't fair on the girl, and my views on rapists are fairly extreme themselves (Castration as punishment), but to go around trying to moralise their world is what has started almost every war, battle and conflict in the Middle East. Just leave their world alone. If you've not done deals, worked and been to these places and seen the people, you can't pretend to know how it really works.

    I was unable to sit in on an online video meeting with a few people from the Middle East, because they thought I was too pale and untrustworthy. If you don't look right, or they don't trust you, you don't get the deal. The UAE acts as the middle man, they've got the people needed for all your business desires and needs, and you just tell them what you want to be said and done.

    They take a cut, get rich and live happily ever after. If they start allowing women to live a westernised lifestyle, then that Middleman Status is gone.
    Considering getting involved economically isn't "leaving their world alone", you don't have much ground on which to stand.

    I don't hold to the notion of moral relativism. What the UAE does is reprehensible regardless of whether or not it might be profitable or convenient, and they should be called out for it.

    Or do you think it is acceptable for say, a business, to abuse its workers for the sake of profit?
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  8. #108
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Talking between the two of you is giving me a headache, with the constant stream of replies needed, so I'll summerise the main point I was making, that has been lost.
    That's because you are saying things that are absurd and insulting people for disagreeing with you. I'd have a headache too...
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    You are suggesting that the largest oil producer in the world, would violate sanctions to buy oil. You already responded to a guy who's country gets 50% of it's oil from Russia. Your assertion that Russia and China would rush to violate sections, is absurd. Nothing you are saying changes that.
    How is it absurd, when they're known to violate sanctions all the time. I gave just one example, where they're selling Reactor Parts to Iran, despite intense pressure and sanctions from the U.S. & U.N.

    I'm sure if I looked around, I could find at least another 20 cases where they're ignoring Sanctions.

    From what I see of that graph, it puts Saudi Arabia at the same league, but it appears in decline. What I can't see, is whether that includes just oil drilling, or filtration or refinement, which would include imports.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowraven View Post
    True that, my apologies, bit tired and read your previous argument wrong. On a second note, I didn't know UAE is a theocracy.
    I don't think that, officially, it is. So I was wrong to make my statement so boldly.
    That doesn't take away the fact that a lot of legislation is religiously inspired. Taken from Wikipedia (so take that as you will):
    All emirates have their own secular and Islamic law for civil, criminal, and high courts.[58]
    The court system comprises Sharia courts and civil courts.
    While the intent of the Emirates is also Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Movement and other rights for all citizens, things like homosexuality are strictly illegal, and Sharia law "regulates matters such as marriage, divorce and child custody. In criminal matters a woman’s testimony is worth half of that of a man before a court.[59]"
    Now; to me, that sounds like a theocracy. Not only that, but it is evidence of the suppression of an entire sex, making the country lawfully sexist.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Considering getting involved economically isn't "leaving their world alone", you don't have much ground on which to stand.
    I'm talking about from a society point of view, which you know and are ignoring. I'm not talking about we don't deal with them, I'm talking about leave their society alone. We've got no right to just walk in, and tell them how to live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    I don't hold to the notion of moral relativism. What the UAE does is reprehensible regardless of whether or not it might be profitable or convenient, and they should be called out for it.
    Why? Please explain why our values, morals and way of life is better then theirs? They're the rich, powerful and successful society with less domestic issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Or do you think it is acceptable for say, a business, to abuse its workers for the sake of profit?
    It depends what you deem as abuse. My view is that Western Society has far to much paperwork involved with work, and I should be allowed to have more control over my own company. Some would deem that abusive, I deem that common sense when a company is there is provide Profit.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Considering almost ore than 50% of the UAE's income is based on petroleum, I'd daresay; they could go on, but they'd slip into third world status rather quickly.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Dha...ment_Authority
    " In a Society like this table, a state of equilibrium, once one makes the first move, everyone must follow! In every era, this World has been operating by this napkin principle. And the one who ‘takes the napkin first’ must be someone who is respected by all. It’s not that anyone can fulfill this role… Those that are despotic or unworthy will be scorned. And those are the ‘losers"

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by habitsbreaker View Post
    these north Koreans must be very religious
    North koreans aren't evil, just brainwashed, and shut out from the outside world.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by habitsbreaker View Post
    Yeh. Didn't you know, having excess in the region of $300 Billion to $850 Billion is near Third-World Country Status.

  15. #115
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    I'm talking about from a society point of view, which you know and are ignoring. I'm not talking about we don't deal with them, I'm talking about leave their society alone. We've got no right to just walk in, and tell them how to live.
    Fun Fact: By getting economically involved, you're getting culturally involved. It's not one or the other.

    Why? Please explain why our values, morals and way of life is better then theirs? They're the rich, powerful and successful society with less domestic issues
    If you're asking me to explain why not having the death penalty for sodomy is a good thing, I really don't know what to tell you aside from stop voting.

    It depends what you deem as abuse. My view is that Western Society has far to much paperwork involved with work, and I should be allowed to have more control over my own company. Some would deem that abusive, I deem that common sense when a company is there is provide Profit.
    So you think it should be permissible for a business to coerce its employees into working 60 hour weeks with few benefits for a pittance?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 07:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Yeh. Didn't you know, having excess in the region of $300 Billion to $850 Billion is near Third-World Country Status.
    That fund hinges upon; guess what, petroleum revenue.

    As I said, they're like any other country that depends on a single product for the majority of their revenue.
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  16. #116
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    How is it absurd, when they're known to violate sanctions all the time. I gave just one example, where they're selling Reactor Parts to Iran, despite intense pressure and sanctions from the U.S. & U.N.

    I'm sure if I looked around, I could find at least another 20 cases where they're ignoring Sanctions.
    Show me a single sanction where Russia is in violation for buying something. They even sold the rights to the Kolashnicov, Gagarin and Lenin. What that link tells you, is they are looking for investors, not looking to invest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    From what I see of that graph, it puts Saudi Arabia at the same league, but it appears in decline. What I can't see, is whether that includes just oil drilling, or filtration or refinement, which would include imports.
    You can't see the part saying they are seeking investors? Here is how absurd your statement that my heating is dependant on UAE:

    http://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=WA
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Fun Fact: By getting economically involved, you're getting culturally involved. It's not one or the other.
    And I see no issue with that, you do. If my nation continues to trade with them, and becomes successful, I'm perfectly happy with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    If you're asking me to explain why not having the death penalty for sodomy is a good thing, I really don't know what to tell you aside from stop voting.
    But, you've failed to give me a reason as to why we're any better then them. Again, I want to stress, as you've seen to forgotten several times now, I'm not in favour of what has happened to the girl, I think it is wrong, but I don't want to go around trying to change their society, based on my Morals, which are basically opinions...

    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    So you think it should be permissible for a business to coerce its employees into working 60 hour weeks with few benefits for a pittance?
    I think, If I want to offer a below minimum wage job to sweep the floors, and someone takes it, it is their responsibility for taking that post. I also believe, if I want to pay large amounts to my Members of the Board, or not hire a Women because I'll get distracted by her, then I should have that right. I'm not saying I would do those things, but I think if I own a business, that is my right.

    Also, before you start getting all morally upset again, remember. I'm talking from experience, you're talking from what you see on Wikipedia and other News Sources.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 03:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    Show me a single sanction where Russia is in violation for buying something. They even sold the rights to the Kolashnicov, Gagarin and Lenin. What that link tells you, is they are looking for investors, not looking to invest.
    Because their investment in Irans Nuclear Programme says they're not looking to invest, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    You can't see the part saying they are seeking investors? Here is how absurd your statement that my heating is dependant on UAE:
    Oh my god, please forgive me for not back-tracing your I.P. Address and pin-pointing your Location & Energy Provider. Oh, what a fool I am!

  18. #118
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    And I see no issue with that, you do. If my nation continues to trade with them, and becomes successful, I'm perfectly happy with that.
    Clearly you're of the mindset that profitability is the highest concern, so; whatever.

    An inhumane and dickhead stance, to be sure.

    But, you've failed to it is wrong, but I don't want to go give me a reason as to why we're any better then them. Again, I want to stress, as you've seen to forgotten several times now, I'm not in favour of what has happened to the girl, I think around trying to change their society, based on my Morals, which are basically opinions...
    Really? By not taking a hard line against it, you're giving implicit support for its continuation.

    The reason why we're better than this; western political philosophy is one that places toleration and individual liberties at a premium while balancing it with the common good and public interest. While it is an ideal, it is a superior one.

    I think, If I want to offer a below minimum wage job to sweep the floors, and someone takes it, it is their responsibility for taking that post. I also believe, if I want to pay large amounts to my Members of the Board, or not hire a Women because I'll get distracted by her, then I should have that right. I'm not saying I would do those things, but I think if I own a business, that is my right.

    Also, before you start getting all morally upset again, remember. I'm talking from experience, you're talking from what you see on Wikipedia and other News Sources.
    Yeah more of that "freedom to quit" garbage you laissez-faire types are so fond of quoting.

    Considering you have no idea who I am or what I have done/been/seen, you really have no position to accuse me of anything.
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    I think, If I want to offer a below minimum wage job to sweep the floors, and someone takes it, it is their responsibility for taking that post. I also believe, if I want to pay large amounts to my Members of the Board, or not hire a Women because I'll get distracted by her, then I should have that right. I'm not saying I would do those things, but I think if I own a business, that is my right.

    Also, before you start getting all morally upset again, remember. I'm talking from experience, you're talking from what you see on Wikipedia and other News Sources.
    Last line first: No matter how ill reputed they are, Wikipedia and Other News Sources are still a lot more reliable than 'experience.'

    Now; I wanted to respond specifically to the employment bit. You see, in our economy, we've got way more people than jobs. If you take that route, then people will be forced to take those jobs. Those are the requirements for income... Either you can't work and gain benefits, you can work but you've got no job, and you gain benefits as long as you are willing to take whatever job comes your way, or you work and gain no benefits. It's as easy as that. People cannot simply turn down the job you're offering... But they'll have a terrible time, and poverty would rise while you, the employer, would stand to gain from that. Pretty quickly, other companies will follow suit, creating a huge divide in wealth. Before you know it, you're dealing with a relatively small middle class, a nearly diminutive upper class, and an incredible huge class of... Well; the poor and downtrodden.

    So... No; that is not your right. And if you live in one of those countries where it IS your right... Well; I firmly believe that it shouldn't be your right.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by mandus View Post
    i merely stated the facts, people jumped on the "all muslims are rapists" bandwagon.
    I don't think that. In fact, only a minority are rapists, same as only a minority of any culture is. That said, you do have some bad laws regarding women and rape.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    A lot of the controls put on women have been taken to extremes.

    To give you an example, it is believed (and I think this is true also) that in years gone by, when raiding parties would travel the globe, taking and stealing what they want, including women, that society felt they needed to do more to ensure women were not seen, and thusly put at risk.

    It was a mutually exclusive deal. The women must cover herself in front of men, to stop any temptation, and at home, she is free to dress as she wishes. These days though, that has been taken totally out of context, and had religious views stamped all over it.

    Sadly, this isn't restricted purely just to Middle-Eastern Societies, but it is more prevalent due to the media coverage. Over here, we allow women to dress as they please, and rape cases are higher here, then they are in the Middle East. Now, I'm not saying they've got a good system, but merely pointing out, they had an old system (and I am talking, hundreds, if not thousands of years by the way) that ensured that both Men & Women were safe and could lead happy lives.
    True, unfortunately along time, that system got perverted to suit the wishes of some against the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Taking men from an environment where women are covered 90% of the time, are taught to be reserved and restrained, and then throwing them into a country where women are free to walk around in sexy lingerie, it is bound to happen.

    I'm not making excuses for them! Personally, rapists would be castrated, and deported if they're an immigrant, but these things happen when you've got two extremes of society mixing.
    Yes, they should be castrated, but human rights societies would come and cry that it's inhumane and all that... some of them today protect the criminals more then they protect the victims. Yes, it would be great if rapists were castrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panszer View Post
    I have to agree with you, on your religious standpoint. I despise religion, i think its the root too all evil. BUT i respect peoples religion.
    Actually the root of all evils is greed. Greed has also penetrated into religion, some men thought they should have more then women, so they imposed their will by perverting some aspects of religion. They just used religion as a means to an end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    I don't think that, officially, it is. So I was wrong to make my statement so boldly.
    That doesn't take away the fact that a lot of legislation is religiously inspired. Taken from Wikipedia (so take that as you will):
    While the intent of the Emirates is also Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, Freedom of Movement and other rights for all citizens, things like homosexuality are strictly illegal, and Sharia law "regulates matters such as marriage, divorce and child custody. In criminal matters a woman’s testimony is worth half of that of a man before a court.[59]"
    Now; to me, that sounds like a theocracy. Not only that, but it is evidence of the suppression of an entire sex, making the country lawfully sexist.
    I see, thank you for the info.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Why? Please explain why our values, morals and way of life is better then theirs? They're the rich, powerful and successful society with less domestic issues.
    I don't know about the western view on most stuff if it's better then theirs. That said, I do think that equality between genders is a view which the western society has got right. You can't discriminate 50% of the population just because they were born women and not men. It just isn't right.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 05:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gheld View Post
    The only thing that is worse than women being imprisoned for being raped, is the people who fence sit and pussyfoot about it.

    This is a shitty policy. It's a gross violation of human rights. It should not be tolerated.
    Fully agreed with this.

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