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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by marthsk View Post
    Oh, right, because condemning rape for either country is equally childish and naive.

    And what about you? Criticizing me for lecturing them, and then lecturing me yourself without a shred of an idea on what my background could be.

    Don't even try. And don't throw stones from a house made out of glass.
    Somebody's awfully self-righteous.

    Anyway, you assert that it's never justifiable, when clearly that isn't the case, as this was accepted practice. When you're killing people at such rates that were happening during WW2, it's not especially bad relative everything else that's happening at the time. It's not particularily worse than firebombing them, which western nations were happy to do en masse, and are totally capable of justifying, nor is it worse than many other things that people have done to each other throughout history, acts for which many people are celebrated as heroes to this day, as we print them on money, mint coins in their likeness, and celebrate their lives in books and plays.
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  2. #142
    Deleted
    Wow, I'm just surprised at how many people say they agree with the mayor of Osaka in his statement... so if today there was a war, it would be ok for the invading force to go pillaging and raping because all is fair in war? Give me a break, this isn't right, you can't condone rape, you can't approve it, you can't say it was necessary. That's just sick. Try looking at Nanking and say that was necessary. If you do that, why hell, you could say everything was necessary from Hitler's gassing the jews to Stalin sending hundreads of thousands to gulags. I mean, it was necessary for the survival of their countries, right? NO! And if you think that you might need to review your way of thinking, you don't belong to this age and time. And yes, I'm comparing mass raping with gasing and killing. Because they're all bad. The end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky High Shark View Post
    wow, a Japanese officiel that acknowledges the shit his country did in the past. how much do you want to bet the nationalist bloggers in Japan will call for this guy's resignation? or better yet how long until he does.
    Well good that he acknowledges it. But... he's calling it necessary. So allow me to say, if, in a war, where you're the agressor, you think it's ok for your army to go and rape women... you have a problem. I was talking in other threads about muslim laws, how is this any better? It isn't, same issue, the men think they're above the women and the women are just objects. You might say yes, but this happened in WW2. Well yes, it did, but... the official says now that he thought it was ok... do you see the issue?

    It shows that many countries still haven't advanced, even if they seem to have economically, socially they didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam the Wiser View Post
    I see nothing wrong in war anything goes.
    No. War is war between 2 nations. It's war between their military and our military. This was WW2 so we can say the people were more barbaric, yet if you think about it, a state condoning rape? That's just sick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    I hate to blow some minds, but sheesh...fyi, forced prostitution IS in america, canada, and a host of other countries you just wouldn't imagine, just not a government program, and so not regulated in any way.

    No regulation means: worse conditions. Think about it.

    I know a ww2 vet (Canadian), him and his buddy opened a whorehouse in france, (it didn't go well, his buddy was the best customer.)

    Anyways, my point is, this isn't the shining, bright, innocent world you guys seem to imagine it is.
    Look around you.
    Lets be frank here, at the same time those comfort woman were playing hobby horse, other people were being gassed, cooked, blown up, shot, stabbed, electrocuted, melted, nuked, burnt, disfigured, mutilated, mass murdered, cleaved in half with a trench shovel, the list goes on.
    But yah, lets dig up more old shit about people who are almost if not certainly already dead to piss and moan about the inequality and unfairness of life.

    I wish you guys could find something current to bitch about, maybe we could make a difference instead of stroking off over the dust on the history books.
    Yes, prostitution is in all these countries... but this wasn't regulated prostitution, it was state apporoved rape. Now you see the problem?
    We're not talking about the Red District in Netherlands kind of prostitution, we're talking about full mass-rape in the occupied countries. It wasn't regulated even, it was just approved by the state.

    And do you really think being raped by tens of people is better then being stabbed, disfigured etc? It's really not. The rape itself leaves mind scars that will never heal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralgarog View Post
    With the way that people are responding in this thread you would swear that WW2 happened yesterday and Japan was not under imperial totalitarian rule when that happened.

    The actions of the past was sick. The people in power paid for their crimes. The past belongs in the past. although the actions should not be forgotten, it should not be treated like the people who are currently in charge in japan are to blame for the actions of their ancestors.
    The guy is the mayor of Osaka now. And he's saying raping women was ok since the men needed something to do to relax. I don't know about you, but I find this outrageous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zonas View Post
    War doesn't give you a "I can do whatever I want" card. But you know, what ever, let's try and justify bullshit. I'm sure Germany's genocidol tendencies were also okay too right?
    Indeed, fully agreed with this.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    It's easy to forget how negative experiences impact the human psyche. Given that and the frightening implications of how being ordered to do something heinous by an authority figure and how your squadmates are capable of altering your own experiences in your mind all of which were exacerbated by the insane amount of propaganda on all sides in the war, it's not difficult to see how these things began, continued and were accepted by the soldiers on the ground.
    None of this is any reason to condone or to forgive. One might be able to forgive those who were coerced into it, but certainly not those who did the coercion. And we certainly shouldn't look back and go 'Eh; I know how it happened, so let's forgive/condone it, or call it necessary.'

    Yes, the Nazis were hideously bad... But the Nazi concentration camp guards were wussies in comparison to their Japanese counterparts.

    Knowing how it happened does NOT make it okay.

  4. #144
    Data Monster Simca's Avatar
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    I don't understand why the mayor or why anyone in this thread would attempt to justify this. It doesn't matter if you think it can justified because it doesn't have to be.

    It happened in the 1940s. Japan was barely a civilized country and still clung heavily to old-fashioned values, which heavily devalued women. For them, at the time, it seemed reasonable. That's you need to know - end of story. They thought it was okay at the time because they grew up in a way that allowed them to think it was okay. It's obviously not okay, but it doesn't matter in this context because we're not living in the 1940s.

    There are so many legitimate issues with rape nowadays that it just feels silly, pointless, and arbitrary to try to argue for the justification of rape in Japan in World War II while removing the context.

    Edit: This is like trying to say that it was wrong for the Catholic Church to execute Joan of Arc or put Galileo on house arrest. Of course it is. It doesn't mean much though, because we're not in those circumstances - we have the advantage of being at the receiving end of the continued evolution of human morals.
    Last edited by Simca; 2013-05-14 at 12:58 PM.
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  5. #145
    Warchief marthsk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    Somebody's awfully self-righteous.
    And you're not?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cattlehunter View Post
    Anyway, you assert that it's never justifiable, when clearly that isn't the case, as this was accepted practice. When you're killing people at such rates that were happening during WW2, it's not especially bad relative everything else that's happening at the time. It's not particularily worse than firebombing them, which western nations were happy to do en masse, and are totally capable of justifying, nor is it worse than many other things that people have done to each other throughout history, acts for which many people are celebrated as heroes to this day, as we print them on money, mint coins in their likeness, and celebrate their lives in books and plays.
    None of what you enumerated is justifiable. Perhaps in your own twisted mind it is, but reality says otherwise.

    With that being said, and considering your position, you don't have any grounds speaking about lectures and self-righteousness, as you seem much more full of yourself than I am. At least I know I am (in spades), while you're oblivious to it, in your case.
    Last edited by marthsk; 2013-05-14 at 01:00 PM.
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  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    See my post on the Rape of Nanking. Forced prostitution wasnt a necessary evil, because the soldiers still went out and skewered children for fun, and raped and mutilated women outside of the ones they imprisoned.
    I'm not claiming what they did was acceptable, or right. But what they did was due to the circumstances they were in. It is hard to make it clear when you're not on their side (which, I'm not!) or at the point in time, but if you've seen your friends and family die, thousands of American soldiers swarming your islands, and the horrific things they did to the Japanese, then you're bound to be messed up in the head.

    Remember - At this point in history, Japan was still very traditional. Family values, along with dishonor and not serving your country were worse then death, it was bred into everyone from a very young age. Many women who were raped, or become comfort girls, probably also did it from some sick mentality that they're helpi

    War is a terrible thing, but to be shocked that Rape, Murder, Torture and other sickening things occur is just naive (I'm not assuming you're being ignorant, just a general statement). These things have happened for thousands of years. People invade, they rape everyone women until she either dies, or becomes nothing more then a shell, then move onto the next village.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 02:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Simca View Post
    It happened in the 1940s. Japan was barely a civilized country and still clung heavily to old-fashioned values, which heavily devalued women. For them, at the time, it seemed reasonable. That's you need to know - end of story. They thought it was okay at the time because they grew up in a way that allowed them to think it was okay. It's obviously not okay, but it doesn't matter in this context because we're not living in the 1940s.
    I'm agreeing with what you're saying, but what does annoy me is how people moralise events of the past, with views of today. In certain areas of the United States, it was perfectly okay for you to go out and just shoot a Native American / Indian. It used to be okay in Britain to drag a black man into the streets, and bludgeon him to death in front of his own children.

    Past events can't be moralised by todays standards. Sleeping with 13 year old years was totally acceptable many years ago, and many other sickening things that today, we'd get angry and upset about.

    The fact is, as you said, back then and for their culture it was totally fine and acceptable. The men where about to get shipped off to die, they didn't care if they raped a women to death. Over the last 60 - 80 years, our society has changed more then any in time in history, what we have to keep in mind is that the past is to be learned from, not used as a means of punishing those alive today.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    But what does annoy me is how people moralise events of the past, with views of today. In certain areas of the United States, it was perfectly okay for you to go out and just shoot a Native American / Indian. It used to be okay in Britain to drag a black man into the streets, and bludgeon him to death in front of his own children.

    Past events can't be moralised by todays standards. Sleeping with 13 year old years was totally acceptable many years ago, and many other sickening things that today, we'd get angry and upset about.

    The fact is, as you said, back then and for their culture it was totally fine and acceptable. The men where about to get shipped off to die, they didn't care if they raped a women to death. Over the last 60 - 80 years, our society has changed more then any in time in history, what we have to keep in mind is that the past is to be learned from, not used as a means of punishing those alive today.
    And here's where I feel you are wrong. We should ALWAYS look at history with our own, current moral compass. History must never repeat itself, and we should ALWAYS be ready to judge the past for its morality. That is how we progress. That is how we become better, morally speaking.

  8. #148
    Warchief marthsk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    We should ALWAYS look at history with our own, current moral compass.
    And when we do, we get called self-righteous and full of ourselves...
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  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Simca View Post
    I don't understand why the mayor or why anyone in this thread would attempt to justify this. It doesn't matter if you think it can justified because it doesn't have to be.

    It happened in the 1940s. Japan was barely a civilized country and still clung heavily to old-fashioned values, which heavily devalued women. For them, at the time, it seemed reasonable. That's you need to know - end of story. They thought it was okay at the time because they grew up in a way that allowed them to think it was okay. It's obviously not okay, but it doesn't matter in this context because we're not living in the 1940s.

    There are so many legitimate issues with rape nowadays that it just feels silly, pointless, and arbitrary to try to argue for the justification of rape in Japan in World War II while removing the context.

    Edit: This is like trying to say that it was wrong for the Catholic Church to execute Joan of Arc or put Galileo on house arrest. Of course it is. It doesn't mean much though, because we're not in those circumstances - we have the advantage of being at the receiving end of the continued evolution of human morals.
    There's never a reason to justify killing either, but that happens and people seem to regularly be like "Meh, it's necessary in some cases".

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    And here's where I feel you are wrong. We should ALWAYS look at history with our own, current moral compass. History must never repeat itself, and we should ALWAYS be ready to judge the past for its morality. That is how we progress. That is how we become better, morally speaking.
    Wrong. You can learn from the past, understand the past, and judge the past, but never, ever moralise the past and try to condemn or atone for it.

    Lets take a look at the Jimmy Saville case. Many of the people complaining about him, were 15 - 18 years old at the time, which back in his day, when everyone was sleeping with anyone, it was perfectly acceptable. You ask any rich man who lived through the 60's -> 80's, everyone was sleeping with everyone, and everyone wanted to!

    There wasn't much abuse, there wasn't much neglect. It was all just free loving. Yet, here we are today, screaming about a dead man who fucked a 17 year old who at the time, wanted to sleep with him, because who didn't want to sleep with Jimmy back then!

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 02:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    There's never a reason to justify killing either, but that happens and people seem to regularly be like "Meh, it's necessary in some cases".
    Never a reason? Someone coming at you with a knife, you've got a gun. You choose not to shoot and kill? ...

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Wrong. You can learn from the past, understand the past, and judge the past, but never, ever moralise the past and try to condemn or atone for it.

    Lets take a look at the Jimmy Saville case. Many of the people complaining about him, were 15 - 18 years old at the time, which back in his day, when everyone was sleeping with anyone, it was perfectly acceptable. You ask any rich man who lived through the 60's -> 80's, everyone was sleeping with everyone, and everyone wanted to!

    There wasn't much abuse, there wasn't much neglect. It was all just free loving. Yet, here we are today, screaming about a dead man who fucked a 17 year old who at the time, wanted to sleep with him, because who didn't want to sleep with Jimmy back then!
    First of all: You've just lost the argument by blatantly telling me I'm wrong on something that is primarily about opinions.
    Second: Your example isn't one of abuse and neglect, as you yourself have stated. Still we can (and should) judge the past. Whether that judgement is unanimously negative is not for me to say. I'm from a country where 16 is the legal age, and that's fine with me. I judged this particular past, no harm seems to have been done, so I'm fine with it.
    Never a reason? Someone coming at you with a knife, you've got a gun. You choose not to shoot and kill? ...
    Self-defense with lethal force is still not the same as intentional killing...
    Last edited by Stir; 2013-05-14 at 01:30 PM.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Necessary? I want to know what planet he's on.
    the planet where people believe women aren't human equals, but lesser humans meant to serve man (of whatever heritage that is making the rules).

    women haven't been viewed as equals in 'western' culture very long, they couldn't even vote. They are still not considered equals in some parts of the world.

    It is that line of thinking that makes this ok for those type of people. If the tables were turned, and their men were being raped by other men ... they would probably not consider the idea of 'comfort men' very appealing, now would they?

  13. #153
    Pit Lord RH92's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakoes View Post
    Japan committed a lot of disgusting warcrimes, and this was just one of many in Asia. Sure enough, it wouldn't be fair to say that the Germans and Soviets didn't get into any of this, but it looks like Japan really toppled it when came to who left the biggest mark with their atrocities.
    From the statistics I've read in book about Hitler (I am not at home right now, so don't know exact numbers). Germans weren't raping that much as people like to think of them as mindless beasts... Remember Germans were still very educated people with good manners. They voted for NASDP because their pride was damaged (and rightly so...) and didn't knew what a storm is going to come. Sure they could have take some things from their "program" more seriously, but come on - the saying "Everyone is general after the war" could be applied here. On the same level we can debate why jews didn't leave Germany when they could, Hitler wrote it in the Mein Kampf that he want to exterminate them...

    And another funny statistic, a lot of SS concentration camp units were in fact from Austria (as Hitler himself was Austrian) and maybe there were a lot of Austrians in Einsatzgruppen too. It always amazes me how Austria managed to dodge the hatered when they picked up the card of "being forced to join Germany" while majority of Austrians voted to join them...

    Anyway as I remember the "rapist ladder" goes:
    1. Japanese
    2. Russians
    3. Americans (To be honest, I was surprised by this)
    4. Germans
    5. British

    Sorry, it somehow always angers me that people instantly speak of Germans as evil incarnate... I can understand it is still fresh, but I find it twisted logic to call Napoleon a "great man" when he brought war on Europe too as so did many other people from different nations.

    And from what I heard of people who lived trough the occupation of both Germans and Russians in WWII, they always say that the Germans were most friendly. When things went their way nothing bad happened (Just in case someone would show up with burning villages and killing people who helped partisans)... For example my grandfather told me that German officer (he lived in their house) saved their animals and food supplies from Hungarians by shooting their officer. Otherwise my grandfather and his family might have died from hunger trough the winter.
    Last edited by RH92; 2013-05-14 at 02:03 PM.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by marthsk View Post
    There is a difference between telling about a reality, and trying to justify actions based on said reality.

    Hey, the reality in arab countries is that it's common place to commit horrible heinous acts on women. If you saw anyone trying to justify their acts by saying "This is our reality", they'd get told to go to hell in a hurry. And with good reason!

    Japan should just assume that this was a very, very awful decision on their part back then.
    Who are you to tell other people what their culture should be like? Isn't that cultural and moral dictatorship? Should we force our laws upon people we have almost nothing in common with?

  15. #155
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    Who are you to tell other people what their culture should be like? Isn't that cultural and moral dictatorship? Should we force our laws upon people we have almost nothing in common with?
    A westerner that doesn't believe in moral relativism.
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zrudo View Post
    Anyway as I remember the "rapist ladder" goes:
    1. Japanese
    2. Russians
    3. Americans (To be honest, I was surprised by this)
    4. Germans
    5. British

    Sorry, it somehow always angers me that people instantly speak of Germans as evil incarnate... I can understand it is still fresh, but I find it twisted logic to call Napoleon a "great man" when he brought war on Europe too as so did many other people from different nations.

    And from what I heard of people who lived trough the occupation of both Germans and Russians in WWII, they always say that the Germans were most friendly... And when things went their way nothing happened (Just in case someone would show up with burning villaged and killing people who helped partisans), for example my grandfather told me that German officer (he lived in their house) saved their chickens and cow from Hungarians by shooting their officer.
    My country was occupied by Germany yet I haven't heard of anything bad happening (besides the war itself). In fact, my family had some German soldiers living with them for a while and they were very kind and even helped around the house and played with the children in the spare time.

    People are quick to think Germany was evil during the war, but the common German soldier wasn't bad at all. They had better morals than Russians or Americans as they took over Europe.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 01:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    A westerner that doesn't believe in moral relativism.
    So you basically agree with the US world police bringing 'justice' and democracy everywhere, even when the people don't want it? Because that's what it sounds like to me.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyve View Post
    Never a reason? Someone coming at you with a knife, you've got a gun. You choose not to shoot and kill? ...
    Pretend I said "unprovoked" as well.

  18. #158
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    So you basically agree with the US world police bringing 'justice' and democracy everywhere, even when the people don't want it? Because that's what it sounds like to me.
    No. Because democracy is not culturally compatible with a lot of societies (even some western ones).
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  19. #159
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Simca View Post
    I don't understand why the mayor or why anyone in this thread would attempt to justify this. It doesn't matter if you think it can justified because it doesn't have to be.

    It happened in the 1940s. Japan was barely a civilized country and still clung heavily to old-fashioned values, which heavily devalued women. For them, at the time, it seemed reasonable. That's you need to know - end of story. They thought it was okay at the time because they grew up in a way that allowed them to think it was okay. It's obviously not okay, but it doesn't matter in this context because we're not living in the 1940s.

    There are so many legitimate issues with rape nowadays that it just feels silly, pointless, and arbitrary to try to argue for the justification of rape in Japan in World War II while removing the context.

    Edit: This is like trying to say that it was wrong for the Catholic Church to execute Joan of Arc or put Galileo on house arrest. Of course it is. It doesn't mean much though, because we're not in those circumstances - we have the advantage of being at the receiving end of the continued evolution of human morals.
    The problem is that some people think that what Japan did then is acceptable since "anything is permitted in war". This scares me, since if they think that was acceptable... what's stopping it from happening today anymore with people with that mindset?

  20. #160
    Deleted
    The argument of "different cultures" is a poor one, Japan outlawed the death penalty for a couple of centuries during the middle ages for example, and they were mostly isolationist until the 1920s. The denial of their barbarity during WW2 needs to stop.

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