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  1. #281
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    I think it's part of the problem , I mean I rauid ToT 3 days a week I myself am a good player and so are m fellow raiders, but we are only 4/12 I'm kinda upset I might not get the finish before 5.4 comes

  2. #282
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    I don't see how Leishen is harder than Vashj or more complicated. Vashj P2 required more coordination then anything in at Leishen. Leishen is basically 1 mechanic in 4 iterations. ^.^
    What coordination? relay up the stairs? please that's nothing at best it's on the same level as coordinating phase spectrum and lfe drain at the same time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 09:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    so you are 9/12 normal tot and complaining about it being too hard....wtf....seriously

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 03:07 PM ----------

    doesnt that jsut prove the point that you dont want to work for it? this proves everything about the amount of effort people want to put in...

    Quite the opposite. If I had quite and stopped raiding you may have a case. I'm not quitting but I also don't happen to think I'm a bad at this game and I've had years of raiding experience. However some of my friends who are weaker raiders or who are new to this game we've had to sit and they left and they weren't happy. I'm lucky to know a bunch of good players and we have fun and progress but I would hate to be a new raider at this game.

    It is vastly to hard. That's all their is to it.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-05-14 at 09:13 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #283
    Legendary! TirielWoW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    so you are 9/12 normal tot and complaining about it being too hard....wtf....seriously

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-14 at 03:07 PM ----------

    doesnt that jsut prove the point that you dont want to work for it? this proves everything about the amount of effort people want to put in...
    Wait, are you speaking to me?
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  4. #284
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    Edit: as for vashj ... you must not have done it while it was current content... the adds all over, strider kiting, getting the green add ead, having a macro for who you tossed it to calling that shit out, getting her to the next phase, dodging green shit on the ground, ETC ETC there was more shit going on and vent was chaos untill she died.

    It is by far one of the hardest fights I ever did when it was a current fight becuase of the mass amounts of cordination needed and if ANY quadrant fucked up at all it was a wipe!

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    What coordination? relay up the stairs? please that's nothing
    Yeah, Leishen is also nothing. Stand in the right position. Gratz, you have killed 100% of the bosses in WoW.

  6. #286
    Legendary! TirielWoW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobyboucher View Post
    The main issue agian is not that normals are too hard now it's that there is a gap in the raiding platform that has not been filled due to "LFR" being pushed as that filler!

    Previously there would be the small raids ZG,AZ,Kara etc that would cater more to the avg joe wanting to do something. They would do those for decent gear and maybe toss a pug for previous tier togethere. These are the raids id join on my alts ..now... LFR or GTFO!

    In wrath they came up with another solution and tossed out 10 mans! Now they were tuned lower provided similar gear just less powerfull. 25 man guilds could plow through it but the avg joe had a hard time with it and over time with gear etc they cleared it.

    then Cata came out... 10 man guilds started asking for a challenge and wanted to be on par with there 25 man countre parts. Thus 10 and 25 were normalized!

    THIS is where the gap is as that 10 man or half raid development is now all lumped into LFR and the groups that were doing the easy organised raids are left grasping at the air with nothing to do but LFR or wipe to content that is harder than they ever saw previously!

    Nerfing normals is not the way to fix it as then you also kill that group and kill the "training ground for heroics" but leaving the groups that previously had WOTLK 10 mans with nothing but LFR was a huge fucking fail move that should be fixed asap but not at the detriment to others!
    My radical dream is that maybe they would consider making 10 mans and 25 mans completely separate instances, as in BC. Have them award equivalent, if different, gear. But for this to work, they'd have to give the full treatment to BOTH instances.
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  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    Wait, are you speaking to me?
    no not you, i apologize...was talking to glorious leader...who also makes it sound like Vashj was easy but guilds had serious issues coordinating that at the time....so where he gets off saying that he speaks for the little people is outrageous when he is minimizing a fight he saw easy that others didnt....double standards if you ask me

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    Yeah, Leishen is also nothing. Stand in the right position. Gratz, you have killed 100% of the bosses in WoW.
    Not even a close comparison. If BC was as smooth as it was now but the bosses kept their same difficulty everyone would shit over Vash. It's not even close. Durumu requires more coordination.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    it is indeed pointlessly overtuned for a normal mode raid.
    What ? I don't even... what? This is nearly perfect tuning for normals.... it's normals not LFR, not ICC 10man normals. This is how normals should be people should get better, Blizzard should not cater to shit players.

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by pallyopness View Post
    no not you, i apologize...was talking to glorious leader...who also makes it sound like Vashj was easy but guilds had serious issues coordinating that at the time....so where he gets off saying that he speaks for the little people is outrageous when he is minimizing a fight he saw easy that others didnt....double standards if you ask me
    No double standards needed. If everything in BC was as smooth and developed as it is in the current tier Vash would drop like a sack of rocks. Hell even the developers have said the game needs increasing difficult to engage the player base in raiding. Well they jumped the shark in ToT. I mean it's a never ending rise and it just leaves more and more people behind. At some point it has to correct itself.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Durumu is far more complicated than either vash or kael. Hell Lei Shen is 10x the fuckign challenge. Let's compre end bosses to bosses. The rest of those instances are piss easy.
    If your talking Normal mode, you sir, are full of shit.

  12. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by re1gn1te View Post
    What ? I don't even... what? This is nearly perfect tuning for normals.... it's normals not LFR, not ICC 10man normals. This is how normals should be people should get better, Blizzard should not cater to shit players.
    Those "shit players" are the ones who take in the noobs that they then train up, gear up, and produce as potential recruits for higher progressed guilds.

    Those "shit players" are the reason that hardcore guilds can exist.
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  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaman View Post
    If your talking Normal mode, you sir, are full of shit.
    No I'm not but thanks for playing. I'm telling you transpose BC into now and BC raids are easier than heroic dungeon bosses. LOL.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherRae View Post
    But it has taken me watching guilds I love just...fall to pieces..over the past two expansion...to realize that hardcore guilds live and die with the casual "bads" in this game. You may think you don't, but you do. Those "casual guilds full of bads" accept the players the hardcores won't because they're not experienced enough, geared enough, etc. They give those noobs experience, gear, training, and advice. And then a small percentage of those noobs move on to bigger and brighter things. And so it goes.

    Hardcore raiders burn out, just like everyone else. What I don't understand is why no one seems to be asking where the fuck we're going to get replacements for those raiders that burn out when we're allowing the guilds that FEED US to fall apart?

    You can't raid with just yourself.
    Well
    This is the concept that fuels WoW raiding (and any hard PvE oriented content in any MMO) from the beginning. There is the thing that not many people wants to be the feeders for our sucess. The feeders complained that much we didnt have the proper Progression path for TWO expansions (since T9 till T14) thats a lot of time for people to forget, even more easily forget system that was naturally in the game and now its coming back with all pointing it out and making all kinds of efforts to stop it.
    As a long time Guild leader I got to conclusion I have to find and nurture my feeders. Guilds with some decent leadership willing to learn and than train raiders for your guild (best works if you find feeders with exact same raidtime). Helping your feeders with alts helps a ton as you boost them a little for their weaker members and thus help them with recruitment (which they now do for you as you will take the better ones in your guild anyway). Ultimately you can suck the feeder dry, recruiting whole leadership and better raiders, if your guild suddenly drops in raid attendance (than find another and repeat).
    The other, a little darker, effective method of recruiting is intentional breakup of rival guild and taking their raiders (takes a bit of time and practice)

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Not even a close comparison. If BC was as smooth as it was now but the bosses kept their same difficulty everyone would shit over Vash. It's not even close. Durumu requires more coordination.
    We seem to have a very different understandind what "coordination" means. Dumuru has basically one mechanic you have to coordinate. Guess which one.

    May I ask when you cleared the raids in BC?

  16. #296
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hubbl3 View Post
    We seem to have a very different understandind what "coordination" means. Dumuru has basically one mechanic you have to coordinate. Guess which one.

    May I ask when you cleared the raids in BC?
    Coordinating Phase spectrum and life drain are two mechanics. Both can (and often do) happen at the time same time. Nice try.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #297
    Here is the issue....the lower end skilled players want the higher end skilled players ignored when tuning a raid....the higher end wants the lower end ignored......both sides despise each others skill level on both ends of the spectrum.....lower end players have lfr....higher end have heroic.....the in between have normal modes...its really a quite simple concept to understand.....raid what you can and quit bitching because you arent able to see the same encounters on the same level of difficulty as others...after all, are you not seeing all the bosses regardless? someone brought up sports.....Should we pay MLB players the same as minor league players....there are tiers in anything in life due to the difficulty it is to achieve...life does not consist of even playing fields regardless of the persons personal traits....im sorry but it seems to me people need a bit of reality slapped into them and realize their own boundaries of what they are capable of doing

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Durumu is far more complicated than either vash or kael.
    This is only arguable when it comes to the amount of abilities present during the fight. The actual tuning and execution required were on a different level.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    No I'm not but thanks for playing. I'm telling you transpose BC into now and BC raids are easier than heroic dungeon bosses. LOL.
    So you never got to raid in BC, gotcha!

  20. #300
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    I think most "raiders" admire challenging raids. I was skimming through the thread, I agree that very few guilds cleared heroic mode and there was very little time from last tier to this one. Also, the amount of rep, legendary quest, other gates to be ready on whichever class is needed is extremely time-consuming and I'm sure is burning out many hardcore raiders.

    I find it odd people saying some BC instances weren't "hard" look how few guilds killed M'uru pre-nerf. I'm glad at least some people remember how hard it was and are backing it up though :P

    I think a big issue is low-pop realms, people who "really" want to raid but their ideal guild is on X server or vice versa. It's extremely difficult and/or expensive to get people together, I think if this was improved, the % of people who cleared raids would go up drastically.

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