Is ToT too challenging causing the guild break ups?

[Deleted]

It's not overtuned, real life seems overtuned and that causes attendence to be low.

[Nobleshield]

I think difficulty is spot on, if you can't (or rather whine abour wipes) clear normal modes, better stick to LFR.

Do people really not see anything wrong with this attitude? LFR isn't a substitute for raiding; this argument has been made and debunked on countless threads and still keeps popping up. I agree with the guy above who said that they require too much "perfect execution" and should be more forgiving. An average guild with average members tends to have a few good, a few average and one or sometimes two "below average" players, and the options for those guilds should not be "bench your longtime friend because they're not good enough for this raid when they were good enough before, or stick to LFR".

[Deleted]

Do people really not see anything wrong with this attitude? LFR isn't a substitute for raiding; this argument has been made and debunked on countless threads and still keeps popping up. I agree with the guy above who said that they require too much "perfect execution" and should be more forgiving. An average guild with average members tends to have a few good, a few average and one or sometimes two "below average" players, and the options for those guilds should not be "bench your longtime friend because they're not good enough for this raid when they were good enough before, or stick to LFR".

So raids should be balanced arround having 4 good players, 4 decent ones, and 2 bad ones?

[Nobleshield]

So raids should be balanced arround having 4 good players, 4 decent ones, and 2 bad ones?

Maybe one bad player, but yes NORMAL (10M anyways, since we're using 4+4+2) should be balanced around "decent" players, not necessarily "good" ones. Heroic can require 110% min/maxing and perfect execution, but normal should be more forgiving to accomodate the run-of-the-mill average guilds with players that don't min/max and theorycraft and log analyze every bit to squeeze out "moar deepz"

[Lilija]

Complete the previous content before heading to the next?

In a competitive environment, which heroic raiding is for sure, there is no point in staying in old content when the new one is out because normals of the next content offer better gear and are usually easier. Coming back to old content when you've already started the new one doesn't have the same feel as doing it in its time. This all creates a lot of time preasure. That's why many guilds of the middle can't emotionally cope with a lot of heroic content in a short period of time.

[Deleted]

I think the problem is not so much in difficulity of content, but in lack of patience. I see people leave LFR after 1 or 2 wipes, calling this "waste of time", with that kind of attitude people shouldnt even start thinking of raiding.

[Lilija]

I sure as fucking hell hope they don't artificially extend a tier of content just to make a small minority of people who twitch and spasm at the idea of having to keep doing old content when new content is out happy.

If it's the minority of raiders that can't finish the content in time, there isn't really a huge problem. However, I would assume in previous tier it wasn't the minority. Guilds of the middle are the majority of raiding guilds. There should be enough of time for them to finish the content without preasure. World Top Guilds are used to having a lot of "free" time between contents anyway. Plus the preasure of world first race is getting to them as well.

---------- Post added 2013-05-15 at 12:17 PM ----------

I just killed him 2 weeks in a row at first try, people learn.

Or you had many people who killed him on normal in group on their alts :P

---------- Post added 2013-05-15 at 12:18 PM ----------

I think the problem is not so much in difficulity of content, but in lack of patience. I see people leave LFR after 1 or 2 wipes, calling this "waste of time", with that kind of attitude people shouldnt even start thinking of raiding.

90% of people who only do LFR are not and most likely never will be a raider material. Those are people who most likely wouldn't raid at all before LFR was introduced. Raiders are used to wipes and can deal with some in LFR as well.

[Deleted]

90% of people who only do LFR are not and most likely never will be a raider material. Those are people who most likely wouldn't raid at all before LFR was introduced. Raiders are used to wipes and can deal with some in LFR as well.

yes I know this, but I see plenty of times on this forum whines "omg we wiped 10 times on Horridion, wtf Blizzard, why so hard???, why you cater to hardcores only??? rawr rawr rawrr" and I'm not talking about LFR here. But if people would be willing to learn, they would be killing these bosses in no time, they just need some patience, it really isn't that hard.

[Icaras]

"We made bumper cars that stand still but make the bumping sound so everyone can have the bumper car experience but without the heavily coordinated and demanding movement of hand on the steering wheel." That's more like LFR.

Actually:

"We made it so that you don't need to arrive at the fair with 9 or 24 other people to be able to ride the bumper cars. Some folks will focus on riding around the circuit like the guy with the microphone tells you too during the ride, but some folks will just do whatever. Enjoy!" <---That's LFR.

[Dazs]

Hello all. Going to try and keep this thread on track with what has been posted and said so people can read through quickly and get a jist of what is going on. Contributing to the main factor of ToT being difficult we have listed reasons below to guilds fallign apart.

1. Too much on ones plate. getting burned out. (valor capping, Dailies, Coins and so forth)
2. ToT is hard by which it relies on every player so therfore wipes happen when losing one person or if 25 man 3 people.
3. Bosses have brick walls and when progressions halts. people feel like thier guild is going no where.
4. Community might be changing and want less raid set times and more LFR instead.
5. Alot of guilds are happy with progressing on normal mode and dont care for top tier race. and creating a split between the community.
6. The idea of a hardcore raider has shifting from skill to how much time you spend.
7. Maybe simply game has been running too long even though ToT is a fantastic tier.
8. Players have been playing together too long. ToT is a high stress raid and requires good synergy.
9. Content Actually rolling out too quickly. no chance to breath. always a race to finish content before new content rolls out.

I tried to compile above what I have seen in post. please feel to add above to it. or comment. This thread has had alot of hits. and I believe its becuase its is something we all see as a community. or feel has meaning to them. had a discussion with guild regarding this. and most simply put. when a tier requires so much out of individual awareness in raid alot of the bads are revealed. what is supposed to be easy or should be easy. isnt for alot. or reaction time is alittler slower. this is causing alot of roster changes to keep pushing hard.

I would alos like to point out what I stated above. even Dream Paragon is changing up thier roster and this is a team which is thought to be close to perfect. as we can see. this tier must have revealed alot to them. as must be for all of us. I think we can all agree a player of cata needs to step it up a huge notch to stay up top or look good in mop. thanks so much everyone for your post!

[Luko]

Maybe one bad player, but yes NORMAL (10M anyways, since we're using 4+4+2) should be balanced around "decent" players, not necessarily "good" ones. Heroic can require 110% min/maxing and perfect execution, but normal should be more forgiving to accomodate the run-of-the-mill average guilds with players that don't min/max and theorycraft and log analyze every bit to squeeze out "moar deepz"

Ok listen. We're not going to meet eye to eye on this as you obviously feel different but I'm going to say it anyway because it needs to be said.

The problem is NOT what's expected of the raiders in a raid. The problem is the players concept of what makes them "good" or "decent." Raiding is for a player that's interested in bettering themselves. You do understand this, right? It's why it drops upgrades. Its intended to push players to their limits to earn better gear. Some players have different limits which is why there's now 3 different raiding difficulties.

Nemro, regardless of his brash wording, was actually spot on. If people find normal raiding too difficult for their skill set, what's wrong with sticking to LFR? I mean, what's the other option? Demanding that Blizzard take normal raiding down a notch so your guild can progress without actually getting any better?

Remember; raiding is never necessary. You do it because you want to. If you want to raid it must mean you want to better yourself. It's the same for everyone. If someone is unwilling or unable to better themselves for whatever reason, raiding might not be for them. There's plenty of other stuff to do in game, yes?

[Osmeric]

If people find normal raiding too difficult for their skill set, what's wrong with sticking to LFR?

This question has been answered over and over.

Once again: LFR lacks the social bonds that people doing easier normal raids enjoyed. This means LFR is not an adequate substitute.

Maybe you should write this down so you don't forget it again.

[Scathbais]

I don't think content should be nerfed to appease the masses who cannot or are slow to progress. Instead there should be an option to lower the difficulty, similar to the buff/debuff now present in MSV, HoF and ToES, but disabled by default. That way you can choose to have an easier time or do the raid as intended.

I think we are saying the same thing. WoLK (and I believe DS but might be wrong here) was nerfed but allowed you to turn the nerf off. Lowering the difficulty == nerf.

[Deleted]

This question has been answered over and over.

Once again: LFR lacks the social bonds that people doing easier normal raids enjoyed. This means LFR is not an adequate substitute.

Maybe you should write this down so you don't forget it again.

get better and do normals then - write it down if you wish ( though I know you won't even bother, just like in raids)

[jax]

We are losing entire guilds. We are losing feeder guilds. These guilds provided the up-and-coming talent pool that more progressed guilds drew from. Hardcore guilds do not get all (or even most, really) of their recruits from OTHER hardcore guilds. They pick up "good prospects" from slightly more casual guilds, that they can develop. The guilds they draw from do the same thing. But we no longer have that chain to depend on. The pool of talented, experienced raiders is growing smaller every month, and it's in large part due to the fact that guilds that could pug casually in BC and Wrath stopped being able to do that, for the most part, in Cata (though this was later fixed by quite a few nerfs) and have now hit a brick wall in MoP.

This is possibly the single most intellegent post I have seen on these forums!

You miss the point my single minded friend. This overtuned thread isn't talking about people who never cleared T14, it's talking about people who are currently progressing through ToT.


Now I will say this, if you are saying you need a 500+ ilvl to do ToT, you do not. 496 should be good for the first few bosses ATLEAST. If you are not 496, or complain that it is too hard, then ofcourse normal ToT is too overtuned for you because you are a lazy scrub. There is absolutely no reason anyone should wine about getting to 496 ilvl. Go kill a rare spawn in Isle of Thunder and get your key and open some chests and get some coins, and then kill bosses. Do LFR, World Bosses, buy some BoE's, for god sakes scrubs, BUY SOME BOE's.

Making gold in this expansion is a joke, you can make 1-3k in an hour of farming/profession. EASILY.

LFR's use your coins, get that piece of gear holding you back. LFR's 476ilvl, 483ilvl, and 502ilvl. 12 Bosses of LFR that drop 502 ilvl OMG.

REP VENDOR, NEUTRAL 522 NECK. Then farm some ToT trash or do the damn LFR and get upto friendly (SOOOO HARD?!?!?) then get a RING or a WRIST, 522 ilvl.

BOSSES ARE TOO HARD? Do you have a disability? Are you 40+? DO you drink alcohol or do drugs that impair your sense? Are you handicapped in some way, shape or formed? BECAUSE EVEN THOSE PEOPLE CAN DO TOT NORMAL BOSSES (EYES CLOSED).

Go kill Jin'rokh on normal, Normal Jin'rokh should be the LFR version, and heroic Jin should be the normal version. Jin'rokh is easy, and omg 522 ilvl gear again. OON/Nalak 522 gear. LFR trash bags chance on drop 502 ilvl item, OH MY GOD.


Getting gear is easy, you just need to put some effort into it. Half of you QQ'ers complain because you don't want to farm, you don't want to grind, you don't want to spend time wiping on a boss. Join a good guild, get carried or something, stop complaining because 13 year olds can kill bosses. This game is an overall jokes, nerds do all the hard work for us and leave video's and guides for us to follow and learn from.


NEED HELP LEARNING A FIGHT......? GOOOGLE IT! YOUTUBE IT! SEARCH WOW FORUMs, SEARCH MMO Forums, GOOD YOUR CLASS FORUMS! Ask people in game, practice in LFR, learn strategies, watch a video to learn the strat then practice in LFR. Know MECHANICS, where to stand, how to increase your dps, when to pop YOUR cds, etc etc.


It's beyond simple. Put some time into the game and stop whining. PvE is great imo, maybe too many classes have too many utilities for you small brained people to remember so make a note or something.

This is possibly the single most idiotic post I have ever read on these forums.

The game is funded by casuals, casuals do not have time to do all the 50 things you just ranted about... there is this thing called real life. While you are very angry it seems and prone to use caps and be condisending to others not of your "l33t" skills, you must know that you cant play this game without the "trash" and "leaches" or the "lazy scrubs". It does not take a rocket scientist to understand that heroic raiders make up less 1/2 of 1% of the population (Source: wowprogress.com) and you need the rest of the 99.5% to fund the game so you can raid?

You have a real issue with people not as good at manipulating pixels as you, I sure hope its only the online epeen thing going on with you because if you act like this in the real world im scared for you and honestly, of you...

[Luko]

This question has been answered over and over.

Once again: LFR lacks the social bonds that people doing easier normal raids enjoyed. This means LFR is not an adequate substitute.

Maybe you should write this down so you don't forget it again.

Cute passive aggression.

I know what's been said. I read it every day on these forums like it's current news. The problem is that it's in no way, shape, or form satisfactory. If you want the social aspect of a raid, you need to raid with your guild / friends. If the raids offered at that level are too difficult, then improve. If you can't, you're going to have to find something else to do with them.

I enjoy playing Dota2 with my friends now and then but I'm no where near as good as they are. I don't jump into their ranked matches complaining that it's too hard. How do we cope with this? Well, frankly I'm not interested enough to devote the time into the game necessary to get on their level, so we play random pug matches. There's no necessary coordination involved, half of the people rage quit when they die too often. Needless to say it's no where near the level they're used to playing, but I get to play with them. When they get serious about it, they go do their thing. It sucks that I'm left behind but I don't want to put the effort in so that's just the way it is. I've accepted that it's above my skill level.

Sure it'd be nice to have that social coordination and experience the "real" level of the game, but that would involve me nailing down some time and really working on my tactics and overall getting much better. If I'm not willing to do that, I don't get to experience the next level of play, regardless of how much I may enjoy it. I don't demand that the game add a brand new level of play just for my friends and I. So in the mean time, I'm perfectly fine with "raid finder."

You want something, you work for it. You don't work for it and improve, you don't get it. I suppose I could make a comment about writing it down so you don't forget it, but in reality, we're cockfighting with subjective opinion, and I'm not quite that pigheaded.

[Deleted]

Well said Ryngo, some common sense is appreciated now and then! ^^

---------- Post added 2013-05-15 at 03:06 PM ----------

This is possibly the single most idiotic post I have ever read on these forums.

He does have a valid point though, just putting it through a little harsh for your taste.
The amount of whine coming from people that the game is too hard, or its too hard to gear up
even though it isnt is just stupendous and really lacking common sense. You cant expect something
for nothing, if you do then you will have a hard time IRL achieving things with that kind of attitude.

He and many of us are tired of that mentality, and I agree with him on every point.

[jax]

He and many of us are tired of that mentality, and I agree with him on every point.

Which is great... the "many of you" (0.50% of the entire population)... not sure is that equates to MANY in anyones mind but whatever... will be looking for another game very soon if you have no one to come in and fill the spots you loose.
The first post was spot on, there is a food chain for the top guilds and like it or not, it is drying up. To pretend otherwise if foolish, to ignore it and rant and rave because your tired of people being bad doesnt do very much but make you out to be an elitist a$$. I am not sure what you or the other guy are trying to accomplish?
Do you think that calling people trash and lazy scrubs etc is going to somehow motivate them? I'll save you the suspense... it doesnt. It just adds to the toxic envirnment that is WoW in 2013 and pushes more people away.

Good luck.

I never heard anything like that in my guild, quite the opposite tbh.

Exodus would like a word with you...

Killars said:

In the last few years we've certainly picked up the pace, but the "hardcore raider" is a dying breed and it's certainly becoming a more difficult breed to be a part of. What I mean by this is of course the time commitment and the level of shear dedication and determination it takes and costs to be at the very top. This isn't to poke fun, but to just shed light of why many people, and subsequently, many guilds will fall. Raiding for many many hours on end is fun, CAN be exciting, and at the end of it all can really prove who really wants that world first/us first/realm first the most. Unfortunately we (hardcore raiders) pushed too hard. Tier after tier we just keep adding to the insanity in both farming preparations and actual progressing. It's almost as if progression itself never really ends after a end tier boss dies. Combine this with Blizzard actually putting new content out faster, alts playing a big role, PTR/BETA, dailys, coins, BMAH, well... you just get lost in it all. Right now there are a few legit world first guilds left

.

[Luko]

Which is great... the "many of you" (0.50% of the entire population)... not sure is that equates to MANY in anyones mind but whatever... will be looking for another game very soon if you have no one to come in and fill the spots you loose.
The first post was spot on, there is a food chain for the top guilds and like it or not, it is drying up. To pretend otherwise if foolish, to ignore it and rant and rave because your tired of people being bad doesnt do very much but make you out to be an elitist a$$. I am not sure what you or the other guy are trying to accomplish?
Do you think that calling people trash and lazy scrubs etc is going to somehow motivate them? I'll save you the suspense... it doesnt. It just adds to the toxic envirnment that is WoW in 2013 and pushes more people away.

Good luck.

As I said in a previous post, the problem isn't the difficulty of the content but the standards that players set themselves to. It's not as black and white as some of the forum screamers would have you believe. It doesn't go from "Bad" to "AWESOME RAIDER MODE GO!!!" The reality of the situation is that it doesn't really take an exceptional raider to down normal modes. There's a ton of people that are at least a few bosses into heroic modes by the end of a tier. If we want to be petty and compare that number to the number of total subscribers then be my guest, but I'll save us both the trouble and move past that.

There's a big difference between content being easy enough to faceroll through with no experience and content being simple enough to learn and adapt to the fights at a level of comfort that still allows a guild to carry on and have fun while they do it. I promise you, nothing about normal mode ToT requires 10/25 absolutely amazing raiders concentrating at full capacity for 4 hours a night to complete. That's just the way the "whiners" would have you believe it.

[Scathbais]

Ok listen. We're not going to meet eye to eye on this as you obviously feel different but I'm going to say it anyway because it needs to be said.

The problem is NOT what's expected of the raiders in a raid. The problem is the players concept of what makes them "good" or "decent." Raiding is for a player that's interested in bettering themselves. You do understand this, right? It's why it drops upgrades. Its intended to push players to their limits to earn better gear. Some players have different limits which is why there's now 3 different raiding difficulties.

Nemro, regardless of his brash wording, was actually spot on. If people find normal raiding too difficult for their skill set, what's wrong with sticking to LFR? I mean, what's the other option? Demanding that Blizzard take normal raiding down a notch so your guild can progress without actually getting any better?

Remember; raiding is never necessary. You do it because you want to. If you want to raid it must mean you want to better yourself. It's the same for everyone. If someone is unwilling or unable to better themselves for whatever reason, raiding might not be for them. There's plenty of other stuff to do in game, yes?

I agree with the concept of players actually trying to improve themselves, with players researching raid mechanics and figuring out how they can help their raid overcome raid mechanics. Nothing should be earned without effort. There is no sense in doing heroic or normal raids if you are not willing to improve yourself.

But your views on raiding and your assertion that it is "never necessary" is at best self-serving. Your opinions on raiding are not facts, just opinions.

Every raider has a different level of skill. Raiders are not created equal. There is an innate level of intelligence, leadership skills, hand-eye coordination, natural ability, or whatever you want to call it that will cause a player/raid group to achieve different levels of success in raids (and in everything we do in life). Raiding is done for a variety of reasons: prestige, fun, sense of accomplishment, sweet-sweet-purpz, etc, etc, etc. Your definition of what a raider is only applies to you and hopefully those you raid with.

WoW is a game; it is a hobby. We play WoW for personal enjoyment, which we each define differently. If a guild is stuck at 6/12 normal or 10/13 heroic and that is the best they will EVER achieve at the current difficulty level, what should they do?

According to your logic, they should beat their heads against the same boss for 15-20 weeks until a new tier comes out or go play LFR. What's wrong with that right? They should be happy with that right?

Well, like I said wow is a hobby and a game. If folks can't enjoy the game because it is too hard, they will stop playing. Blizzard nerfing content via a direct nerf or item upgrade, helps players get over the hump and continue to make progression.

I never understood the argument, made by a tiny percentage of the WoW community, that "players should be happy with X (where X is some arbitrary level of success)" , just because they don't want another player to kill a boss that they killed pre-nerf. I don't understand how a minority of players feels somehow lessened by others enjoying a GAME as much as they do. It is just a game after all.