Is ToT too challenging causing the guild break ups?

[cabyio]

Not at all, it's up to any teacher to get their student engaged, and if necessary show them how to learn.

And if the student refuses? Still the teachers fault?

[Glorious Leader]

And here's the great disconnect. You pay for a game you happen to enjoy. Not a game that you'd enjoy if they only changed x, y, z to appease you. You are a customer, Blizzard is not your employee.

When you no longer enjoy it, you no longer play it. Simple.

I don't get it. Are you making an argument in favor of harder raids or in favor of continued subscriber loss?

[melodramocracy]

Nope.

Teacher gets paid by student. Student learns nothing. Teacher has failed.

Teacher gets paid by student. Student parties all the time, pays no attention, puts no effort forth, fails. Teachers fault.

Unreal.

[Otimus]

why is it that almost everyone defending this current raid philosophy is also massively patronizing?

Good question, and it's posed often in this forum, and every time it is, the same thing happens:

Poster A is an obnoxious jerk

Poster B calls him out on it

Poster A COMPLETELY IGNORES IT, AND NEVER ADDRESSES IT, but continues to act like a jerk.

Seriously, people who do this, why do you do this? Why make gross-insulting statements then run away? Are you cowards? Do you realize how stupid that is in general? What's wrong with you people? It's the internet? Is that why you behave like horrible human beings?

---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 05:32 PM ----------

this thread become a joke,
really.

How come you're always insulting and crap in every random thread about these subjects, and when you're called out on it, you never respond? Why are you so insulting and rude to strangers on the internet? Do you enjoy being a bad person?

[cabyio]

Especially since we seem to have no luck on trash epics either..

Ya the trash epics are few and far between this tier it seems. I think we have gotten 4 total. Although 1 of them was thunderforged. That was nice.

[Deleted]

And if the student refuses? Still the teachers fault?

Yes, of course.

Either he needs to be giving the money back or upping his game.

[melodramocracy]

I don't get it. Are you making an argument in favor of harder raids or in favor of continued subscriber loss?

I'm in favor of Blizzard putting their foot down and basically saying "this is the game. If you dont like it, fuck off". Even if it winds up being a game I dislike and leave, it's far more respectable of a position then to watch them desperately try to make this a jack of all trades, master of none mmo.

[cabyio]

Nope.

Teacher gets paid by student. Student learns nothing. Teacher has failed.

Really simple. Try it any other endeavour. Man pays builder to build wall. The wall doesn't get built. Builders fault.

Plumber gets paid to fix leak. Leak remains. Plumbers fault. Same deal.

Man pays builder to build wall. Doesn't let builder on his property. The wall does not get built. Man's fault.

[Deleted]

Nope.

Teacher gets paid by student. Student learns nothing. Teacher has failed.

Really simple. Try it any other endeavour. Man pays builder to build wall. The wall doesn't get built. Builders fault.

Plumber gets paid to fix leak. Leak remains. Plumbers fault. Same deal.

lol, logic straight from kindergarden.
your examples of plumber and builder have nothing in common with your teacher - student, and Blizzard - player.

the leak is either fixed or don't, wall is build or don't, you don't ask owner of the house if he enjoy it. and you don'rt ask owner for help with said work.

[nukethetuna]

Is ToT too hard? No. The difficulty is just all over the place, and the linearity makes it downright painful to progress if you hit a wall.

Horridon, Council and Megaera were/are blocks for the average guild because they were gear checks as well as mechanic checks. If those semi-gear checks were saved for Iron Qon and Consorts (who are arguably way undertuned on normal), I doubt there'd be so much complaining.

Another option would've been to just make the 3 sections into concurrent wings. Linearity only becomes a huge deal when the blocks are poorly placed, as was the case, so an easy solution is to give people choices. Can't kill Horridon in the "Troll wing"? You can try Tortos or Durumu in the other wings. You have options and can pick a fight based on what you think your raid composition/player strengths would excel at most.

It's not even a matter of "decreasing epicness" like this. We've never heard of most of these bosses until you actually get to their encounter (with the exception of Jin'Rokh, Council, and Lei Shen), so it's not like being able to mix and match the order decreases the story value, it just makes the entire raid more accessible.

It's interesting that Heroic actually allows these choices just based on how it works. "Oh, we don't really have the DPS for heroic Horridon, but I hear that heroic Ji-kun or Tortos is more about organization and mechanics, let's give those a shot instead!". It definitely makes heroic progression more malleable.

As for trash? Horridon and Council trash are about as bad as it gets. Again, putting the longest trash before early bosses doesn't make things fun for guilds stuck on those bosses.

Art-wise... the instance isn't particularly interesting. Outdoor Ruins which've been done in every troll instance ever, a cave, a sewer, and a pretty nondescript royal temple. Nothing really stood out in the environments as particularly exciting. Compare that to the bright colors of Sunwell, or the giant chasm separating the four wings in ICC, or Ulduar's awesome titan touches like the train to Mimiron... all ToT has is a cutscene that you can't skip. Definitely a shortcoming.

[Glorious Leader]

Ya the trash epics are few and far between this tier it seems. I think we have gotten 4 total. Although 1 of them was thunderforged. That was nice.

Lucky sob. I FINALLY got a piece of thunderforged the other day and it was the shield which was nice. From a 476 pvp shield to 538 thunderforged. It was good to be rewarded for a change.

[cabyio]

Yes, of course.

Either he needs to be giving the money back or upping his game.

Your just being ridiculous now. Obviously no point in engaging you any further.

---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 11:36 AM ----------

Lucky sob. I FINALLY got a piece of thunderforged the other day and it was the shield which was nice. From a 476 pvp shield to 538 thunderforged. It was good to be rewarded for a change.

Our poor tank is still using a 476 off of spirit kings LFR. He is hoping lei shen drops his shield tonight. 476 to 522 would be a hell of an upgrade. Shields seem to be even rarer than weapons. :S

[Glorious Leader]

I'm in favor of Blizzard putting their foot down and basically saying "this is the game. If you dont like it, fuck off". Even if it winds up being a game I dislike and leave, it's far more respectable of a position then to watch them desperately try to make this a jack of all trades, master of none mmo.

Respectable doesn't pay the bills unfortunately. If they put their foot down and said this is what's up where do you think the foot would land? My suspicion is that it would not be in favor of harder raids at all.

Isn't that also an entitlement argument on your part? I want the developers to cater to my vision and exclude everyone else just...

[melodramocracy]

Yes, of course.

Either he needs to be giving the money back or upping his game.

If you're not simply trolling at this point, I can say that the realities of life have some unbelievably painful lessons in store for you. I'd advise acquiring a helmet.

[Deleted]

Your just being ridiculous now. Obviously no point in engaging you any further.

Why on earth do you think that I am being ridiculous?

taching is a service job, same as any other. Blizzard is in the business of providing entertainment to people. Part of that includes teaching their customers how the game works. Currently they are failing at it.

[Luxeley]

The problem is - people DO NOT know how to play their class and don't want to learn how to do so. Blizzard rectified this problem by providing easy content and easier class specs and talents. And still, people don't know how to play their class. This is what happens when you cater to people who are lazy and have ADD. Part of the problem is Blizzard does a completely awful job at educating people and informing people on their class in game. For example - Warriors - you learn "charge" in the starting area and then school is out - you're now a pro. No instruction about procs, mastery, defenses or rotations. Maybe this isn't Blizzard's job and I can understand that. And, the community does a pretty darn good job at filling the gap with videos and such, but I don't believe for a second these people research their class, let alone a raid boss - EVER! They are not gemmed correctly, let alone gemmed at all. They are not properly enchanted. No maxxed professions either; the extra stats does help a little bit in raiding, let alone provide you with gold to buy other things. Part of the problem might be the lower populated realms, there is no listing for gems or enchants and no one is ever online to help you out with that sort of thing. But, that is more the exception than the norm. The bottom line is people are lazy and just want to do the fun stuff and not work for it.

Now, I am speaking from a PVP perspective. I've been playing since WOTLK and I've only done one raid - EVER - Dragon Soul for Cunning of the Cruel (which after 148 boss kills, I never got which is the fucking reason I despise raiding.) But, I still believe my premise holds true in PVE. I've seen Hunters not drop a flair while a rogue sniffs around a node. Rogues burn all their CC cds before opening up on me. Mages spam icelance and only icelance as if their finger is strapped to the key (that is if they are not a clicker which most likely they are). I've seen Prot warriors run for the zerker buff with the flag in an RBG (more than once). The list goes on, I think I backed up my point effectively. People DO NOT know what they are doing and they don't care to know what they are doing. Some are drunk, some are stoned, most of them though just don't FUCKING care. This attitude compromises the integrity of the game and pissed off the loyal hardcore players. Today's gamer doesn't care about complexity, intelligence, lore or achieving goals in Raids or PVP, they just want to mash the keys and blow shit up. And, the problem is, unless they're playing someone worse than them, they can't do it in WOW on a competitive level.

Go ahead tell me I am wrong!

Now, I understand there is a lot more wrong with the game, but this is the core problem and the most fixable problem.

[Deleted]

If you're not simply trolling at this point, I can say that the realities of life have some unbelievably painful lessons in store for you. I'd advise acquiring a helmet.

I think the lesson that you need to provide people with services they will voluntarily pay for or you go broke is incredibly important.

Question is, why haven't ypu learned it?

[Glorious Leader]

Why on earth do you think that I am being ridiculous?

taching is a service job, same as any other. Blizzard is in the business of providing entertainment to people. Part of that includes teaching their customers how the game works. Currently they are failing at it.

They are failing as both teachers and entertainers. Again I find this whole BLizzard is a teacher argument EXTREMELY patronizing.. Daddy developer knows best after all and if you just beat your head against his fucking painfully overtuned and poorly designed raid you'd see how good it would be..

[hyphnos]

And if the student refuses? Still the teachers fault?

I think you're missing the part where the student in this example is paying the teacher. I think it's safe to assume that a pupil hiring a teacher is not refusing to learn.

[Deleted]

They are failing as both teachers and entertainers. Again I find this whole BLizzard is a teacher argument EXTREMELY patronizing.. Daddy developer knows best after all and if you just beat your head against his fucking painfully overtuned and poorly designed raid you'd see how good it would be..

Well it does follow that if people don't know how to play wow than it's up to some process or other to show them how (or the game be changed so they can) Obviously if you accept that bit, the next logical step is to say it's up to blizzard to teach their customers how to play.

I mean who else would it be up to? The frigging tooth fairy?