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  1. #101
    The Unstoppable Force Chickat's Avatar
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    For me the 2 hardest are feral druids and dks in general. I hate the rune system.

  2. #102
    if you look at it say perfect rotations, favorable rng and excellent timings you could judge by simulationcraft as a basis.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by esatikkane View Post
    Dunno about others, but i don't really watch colors from affdots and the addon itself is not that helpful. For me it's just fun to watch your dot power compared to your dots now if you were to refresh them. I watch my procs and generally know my current dot powers, sure if you are "beginner" or "not so good player" it might take brains out of dotting and just react to affdot colors without understanding dotting on more deep level. And what i mean by "deep level" is that there are lot of micro decisions should you refresh your dots or not and how should you refresh them.
    Exactly this. the colors don't mean that much if you know what you're trying to do. Like I'm not going to refresh my dots if UVLS pops and the bars are orange/red? or if DS cooldown is coming up and my bars all say green (because of Jade spirit or something), I'm not going to blindly refresh that because I know a better scenario is just around the corner.

    And the colors don't mean anything if you're doing the SoulSwap cheese on Megaera or Council.

    Also, the post about Affliction being super RNG dependent is spot on. I can't speak for other classes, but given that our base resource is generated almost entirely by RNG it's likely that RNG affects Affliction more than most other class/specs.
    Last edited by schmearcampain; 2013-05-18 at 11:46 PM.

  4. #104
    Very hard to say, they've streamlined it a lot. All classes are at the point where you don't really gain very much - in terms of numbers at least - by being more skilled.

    It's becoming more and more about gear setup (was like that before as well, but then you could easily notice the difference between a mediocre player and a skilled player at a glance, now you practically need to look at logs of everything).
    Last edited by Fojos; 2013-05-19 at 02:53 AM.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by reflection View Post
    If I were to choose I would say Warlock. I play a Mage and only have one real dot
    /Sigh
    Nether Tempest or Living Bomb
    Ignite
    Pyroblast dot effect
    Combustion

    Last i checked that's 4 bud.

  6. #106
    Mechagnome Bombino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esatikkane View Post
    Dunno about others, but i don't really watch colors from affdots and the addon itself is not that helpful. For me it's just fun to watch your dot power compared to your dots now if you were to refresh them. I watch my procs and generally know my current dot powers, sure if you are "beginner" or "not so good player" it might take brains out of dotting and just react to affdot colors without understanding dotting on more deep level. And what i mean by "deep level" is that there are lot of micro decisions should you refresh your dots or not and how should you refresh them.
    this. i think it's bad to follow that addon blindly, much better to see your buffs/procs as well as the addon and make your own decision based on the situation.

    Otherwise though, I think this is kind of a weird thread. If you wana see the top dps specs go look on simcraft and/or worldoflogs. After you know which specs are the best, of course then skill comes into play, but if you consider that skill is the same across the board, the better specs will do better.

  7. #107
    imo the hardest class to do good with is a warlock and the easiest is probably assasination rogue. I got both these classes along with mage and a shadow priest which I could put somewhere inbetween in a lock > shadow priest > mage > rogue relation. Although I guess regarding mage - if ua re fire or frost its pretty easy, but as arcane it might be abit tricky
    Last edited by Makarena; 2013-05-19 at 06:18 PM.

  8. #108

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by risingforce View Post
    Warlock, though Demonology is much more forgiving than Affliction and Destruction.
    In what world? Destruction is the spec you can get the least out compared to demo and aff. This is also due to UVLS, of course, but in general you can get much more out of demo if you play fantastically well than you get out of destro.

    In any case, it's really warlock, especially if you have UVLS.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-19 at 10:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    Dotter specs can be trivialized with Affdots for lock/boomies/spriest.

    You just need to react to the green light, its not hard, not hard at all. Its clunky with Wooshulay or the UVLS but not hard, that's sure.

    WW monks with RoRo trinket if u want something not so RNG, rewarding and totally akward: chi banking while energy starved must feel good <3
    Ah, and this is exactly why so many warlocks are bad. They either don't give two shits about their procs or they blindly follow affdots and then wonder why their dps is not so good.

    Affdots is great to do what you did before in your head, namely keep track of current dot power compared to what procs you have. It by no means takes out the skill of it. If you refresh wrongly, too early, or too late, green number or not, you just fucked your dps.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Gooby View Post
    heh, no

    sub rogues are pretty awful and punishing atm with positional requirement and bosses spazzing out (council, primordious, iron qon, lei shen) and does overall way less damage than combat/assassination
    It didn't ask what's the top dps spec, it asked what spec has the biggest difference between a shitty and a good player. In those cases i believe that sub rogues are a helluva difference.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by matters View Post
    We are not in the era of WoW where any class is John fucking Madden (like Feral druids were), although i am fairly certain that different classes will punish you more if you play incorrectly. Mages for instance have been called faceroll many times over the course of many expansions. The current Fire Mage model could be called faceroll as well since there really are only a few buttons you need to press in order to do DPS, however if you mess up or use your Combustion CD incorrectly or not at the optimal moment you will do far less damage than a mage who does use it correctly.

    ^Just for instance.
    I'd actually say that Feral is harder now than it was in T7-8. You've removed the 12 second duration Mangle buff and extended Savage Roar, but you've added Thrash at 15 second duration and DoC usage. If you have RoR, that's another element added to the rotation. Not to mention that now you have two viable builders (Mangle and Shred) and you actually have to make an informed decision to use one over the other.

  12. #112
    Deleted
    i'd say any tank, though prot paladin might be most fun due to 1sec gcd and more buttons in rotation than DK, monk and warrior.

  13. #113
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by zora View Post
    i'd say any tank, though prot paladin might be most fun due to 1sec gcd and more buttons in rotation than DK, monk and warrior.
    tanks skillcap is only important in low skill environment. as long as they dont fuck up moving the boss or losing threat, they can pretty much randomly push buttons. not saying there arent extremely poor tanks in high skilled guilds that hinder progress.

  14. #114
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by kalo View Post
    tanks skillcap is only important in low skill environment. as long as they dont fuck up moving the boss or losing threat, they can pretty much randomly push buttons. not saying there arent extremely poor tanks in high skilled guilds that hinder progress.
    This has nothing to do with OP's question. It's not "when is coming close to skillcap needed" but "what's the higher skillcap class out here". Whether you play in LFR, in a top 10000 guild or in a top 10 guild doesn't change the class skillcap.

  15. #115
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by kalo View Post
    tanks skillcap is only important in low skill environment. as long as they dont fuck up moving the boss or losing threat, they can pretty much randomly push buttons. not saying there arent extremely poor tanks in high skilled guilds that hinder progress.
    How do you figure that? Since tanks DPS rotation is as important, if not more important than any DPS's rotation. Especially considering as for most tanks, their rotation is directly linked to their rotation.

    Keeping yourself alive as a tank is much harder than keeping yourself alive as a dps.
    If you die as a tank it is most likely a direct wipe since it often result in secondary deaths before you can get ressed.
    All while focusing on your defensive CDs etc you also have to focus on your rotation.

    Not saying tanks have the highest skill cap, though it is very likely. Maybe healers.

    Saying that a tanks skillcap is only important in low skill environments could be applied to any dps class in the same fashion as a tank dps rotation is just as important as a tanks. If you are at that stage of the game that your tank is pressing random buttons and you are still killing the boss. If your tank was pressing the correct buttons you could instead have 1 dps and 1 healer pressing random buttons.
    That said, does not mean that some tanks have gotten completely carried in high tier guilds. I think that is mostly because people did not focus that much on tanks in MoP and a lot of the high tier guilds did not really realise how high potential the tanking classes had. The most famous example of this was probably Fraggoji in Paragon T14.

  16. #116
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Yeahbaby View Post
    Heh, everyone saying spriests because of snapshot dots but no mention of moonkins or any other dot class/spec?

    Just the fact that moonkins have the exact same thing (snapshot dots) to worry about + eclipses inherently makes moonkins more complex and more difficult to play to perfection. Spriests only have to think about their proc durations and dot durations. Moonkins have to think about proc durations, dot durations, eclipses and possibly Incarnation + Celestial Alignment. The only cooldown spriests have is Power Infusion and they don't even use it for most of the fights.

    With that being said I have no idea who is the most difficult to play to perfection, but personally I don't see how anyone could think spriests would be highest on the list considering both moonkins and warlocks(aff/demo) have the exact same things to worry about + more.

    Without having played all the classes/specs at a high level, which makes this kind of meh but you asked, I'd say either of these specs could be the most difficult to play perfectly (highest reward for effort) ON ACTUAL BOSSES:
    Balance/feral Druid
    Demo/Affliction Lock (I've never played this spec so I don't know how much work goes into actually using the Metamorphis properly or what other CDs demo locks have so maybe they're actually super simple -_-)
    Fire/Arcane Mage

    If you just want the highest damage potential possible on most bosses you'd go with something like this:
    Affliction warlock > Demo&Destro/FireMage/Moonkin/Shadowpriest/AssassinationRogue > everything else
    clearly haven't read the thread. you're clueless aswel

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbamboozal View Post
    I think it's a little tongue in cheek to say that while wearing a voidheart set on your avatar. I'm getting at the idea is that you are not just balancing mana anymore, but balancing mana against demonic fury/shards/burning embers. And that additional balance played against the mana pool, is what can make thinks a little sticky if you miss something. (of course teir set bonus makes that so silly to say, but before you get a 2set/4set, I stand on the above statement)

    OT I have one of each class, and have tried all specs, playing lock has been by far the most challenging and interesting for me.
    Given that, using affdots clears up MOST of that, but lining up snapshots in aff, and absolutely 'getting it right' every time, in demo, is at least 'enough' to keep you awake and thinking. Destro feels pretty straight ahead to me.
    You're correct of course! Throwing out chaos bolts, etc. at the right time is important and having them up when you need them and managing embers/shards/fury is what it comes down to for warlocks. However, I was answering the OP about mana management which I still feel is pretty much none-existant. The dps classes that I play at the moment (lock & ret paladin) have no issues with mana. But you're absolutely correct when saying that there is more to resource management than mana. Something I simply overlooked..

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    It's not hard at all to stand and do the rotation.

    It's the hardest thing in the game to do the fight mechanics correctly and maintain DPS.

    There are many gaps where movement is required but you have nothing you can cast while moving. Rune of Power compounds the issue because you have to recast it after movement.

    The challenge is doing what you can to plan ahead, timing snapshotting before movement, refreshing your L90 talent (which should generally be RoP), and not screwing up the mechanics of a fight.

    In any other tier Arcane might be playable, but in ToT Heroic it's damned near impossible unless you can get the strategies to be built around you standing still.
    You forgot the hardest of all steps: educating the rest of your raid. Getting them to avoid being around you so that a boss ability doesn't target them while they are near you, forcing you to move. I swear that people see the runes on the ground as some sort of a bonus for them to stand in. Trying to convey to them that they cannot be near you because it can hamper your DPS by a huge amount and they actually listen is a challenge all to itself.
    to: preposition; used as a function word to indicate position, connection, extent, relation ~ too: adverb; also, very, excessively, so

  19. #119
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    How do you figure that? Since tanks DPS rotation is as important, if not more important than any DPS's rotation. Especially considering as for most tanks, their rotation is directly linked to their rotation.
    honestly its been a while since i progressed as a tank in 25m heroic (raggi hc and early ds hc) so my pov (heroic 25m) may be outdated. the main factor i found the skill cap is rather low is that the rotations were very blunt and also had rather low impact on your dps as external sources like vengeance uptime and expertise/hit were ways more important. so the gain of perfectly pushing your 4 dps buttons was abysmal.
    so as long as your macro was okay (pulling boss the right way, using your cds properly) the tank was very good.
    as a dps you're always competing against one or two of your own class so i find it more interesting and rewarding to work on your dps output as the equivalent of skill was measurable.


    Keeping yourself alive as a tank is much harder than keeping yourself alive as a dps.
    in high end guilds? never had a tougher time staying alive as a hunter in ds hc before det buff.
    as a tank the damage income is always predictable. if the boss hits hard, start with your short cd low resistance cd. if it runs out and you drop low, activate next cd/trinket. and so on. quite easy once you learned it the right way. you hardly have to even look for them as its always alternating.
    taunt 1: low cd cd, later trinket or longer cd, afterwards cd 2
    taunt 2: low cd cd, other long time cd, external cd
    taunt 3: repeat from step one.

    If you die as a tank it is most likely a direct wipe since it often result in secondary deaths before you can get ressed.
    All while focusing on your defensive CDs etc you also have to focus on your rotation.
    obviously its more dangerous if a tank dies but unless you screw up cds (low skillcap to me) or your Ot doesnt taunt (low skillcap either) its not your fault and is more a point of healers allocation.

    Not saying tanks have the highest skill cap, though it is very likely. Maybe healers.
    probably things have changed alot and tank rotations got very interesting/complex. i find healers to be very different, but as rare as skillfull healers are, as rare can they shine (it was incredible what impact healers had on fights like raggi back then).ild definitely agree with you here. highest skillcap but least recognized

    Saying that a tanks skillcap is only important in low skill environments could be applied to any dps class in the same fashion as a tank dps rotation is just as important as a tanks. If you are at that stage of the game that your tank is pressing random buttons and you are still killing the boss. If your tank was pressing the correct buttons you could instead have 1 dps and 1 healer pressing random buttons.
    rather the opposite to me. if not every dps pulls 100% youll have no chance to beat enrage unless your gear advantage is very high. and as i said, tank rotation had rather low impact back then. especially when you didnt have vengeance during offtanking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryaan View Post
    This has nothing to do with OP's question. It's not "when is coming close to skillcap needed" but "what's the higher skillcap class out here". Whether you play in LFR, in a top 10000 guild or in a top 10 guild doesn't change the class skillcap.
    always a matter of opinion. to me skill is a combination of "macro" and "micro". as a tank the macro is rather hard like maintaing rotation, moving boss, cd management and most tanks in non top 100 and even top end tanks dont shine in it. but once youre above the point of learning it, it gets rather unimportant how skillful you are beyond.
    for dps the macro would be rotation without standing in the fire which is very easy comparatively except probably less predictable as lots of abilities dont even hit you every try in 25m.
    but the perfect execution of the rotation would be the micro for me both have in common. as the tanks rotation is (was) rather blunt and unimportant ild call its impact and skillcap rather low. whereas as a dps always gains more of perfect execution as hes in a direct comparison with his classmates/wol.
    tldr: if you learned your tanking macro, youre pretty much settled as a tank. if you are a dps, improve steadily or you lose your raidspot.
    Last edited by mmocaba1459261; 2013-05-20 at 02:29 PM.

  20. #120
    Deleted
    You are comparing Cata tanking with Cata/MoP dpsing. MoP changed a lot in tanking.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 03:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by kalo View Post
    rather the opposite to me. if not every dps pulls 100% youll have no chance to beat enrage unless your gear advantage is very high. and as i said, tank rotation had rather low impact back then. especially when you didnt have vengeance during offtanking.
    So tell me. What is the difference between a dps playing badly and doing 50k dps less then he should or a tank playing badly and doing 50k dps less than he should?

    The only real difference is that the tank playing badly would be more likely to cause raid wipes, also the damage difference between a good tank and a tank is larger than the difference between a good or bad dps.

    You are living in the past. Back in Cata I would agree with you, but this is not Cata anymore.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-05-20 at 03:58 PM.

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