View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

757. You may not vote on this poll
  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #241
    As for the options in the poll, the first 3 are not solutions to the supposed problem. If you make the gap smaller by turning normal into easy mode all you're doing is creating a new gap between easy and heroic.

  2. #242
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    I would be quite happy to see a more casual 10m mode introduced. I don't think it would need an ilvl reduction though. There could just be more incentives for those who tackle the regular normal modes then progress onto Heroic.

    There is also an insane ilvl difference between 10 and 25. I'm fine with some difference to incentivise 25m, but the difference is unfair currently and far outweighs the challenge gap.

    10m Casual - No TF loot, 2 loots per boss, slightly delayed HC unlock.
    10m - TF loot, 2 loots per boss, plus a chance(25%) of one extra drop
    25m - TF loot, 6 loots per boss

    25m would still have more loot per person and more TF loot.

    The higher TF drop rate in 25m is fine, as long as the 25m encounters are balanced around having higher ilvl, which they currently aren't.
    Last edited by Roosta; 2013-05-19 at 11:55 PM.

  3. #243
    Where's the option to "Keep it as-is". Talk about a biased poll.

    LFR is easy and a joke, there should be a big gap between that normals, and then again for heroics. If I had my way there would be even bigger gaps between LFR/Normal/Heroic. You get rewards the more work you put into the game, people downing heroics are putting lots of time into the game and SHOULD be rewarded better. Just because you can't, doesn't mean you should get near the same gear level for way less effort.

    I raid about 16hr/week, and people raiding 2-3hr/week are generally only ~20 ilevels lower than me. That's not major, and I miss classic where raiders putting in this much time were easily identified. Now lots of people just blend together, unless your on a really bad server that only has 1 heroic guild.
    Last edited by tyrindor; 2013-05-19 at 11:58 PM.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
    The people voting for this are 25 man raiders who don't like 10 mans getting the same loot. They're not the target audience for this vote.
    25m normal has the same gap between LFR and normal as 10m so yeah any raider is the target of the poll. I wouldnt care if 10man had better loot if I could do 25 but gear levels do matter to the people who raid for gear. These people go to which every size is easiest to get into for gear if the levels are the same which right now is 10man causing reduced recruiting pools for 25mans. This is the opposite of what you want since 25s require a larger recruiting pool because of higher turnover. So the best way to boost 25s is to get the swing raiders back that went to 10s for easy loot.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Because it's not fine the way it is.
    Tuning raids for "speciel needs" would destroy raiding. Normal mode are EASY. If you can't handle them stick to LFR, it's created for people like you.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by tyrindor View Post
    Where's the option to "Keep it as-is". Talk about a biased poll.
    blizzard lost 1.3 million subs

    if you think it will stay "as it is" you are just kidding yourself
    changes are coming with 5.4, the question is what exactly blizzard thinks is the problem, they already did say that they see there is an issue with lfr being too easy and not really social and normals too hard for some

    of course them saying they see it's a problem doesn't mean they actually think it is worth fixing, maybe they think further sub loss can be prevented by making normals even harder in 5.4

    idk what they are going to do but I am quite sure 5.4 will bring some changes in that regard
    although depending on when the next expansion comes they might leave it for 6.0

  7. #247
    Should be LFR and a Normal mode, that's it. And normal mode should be half puggable and eventually have increasing debuffs. I really don't think there's a good market for hardcore players anymore. If there are any hardmodes I think it should be like Ulduar where you do the encounter differently.

  8. #248
    Yeah, it is fine the way it is. If they made a different difficulty mode to suit absolutely everyone the game would have 100 difficulty settings and it'd take them 3 years to release a raid.

    Normals really, really aren't that hard. Might be a culture shock moving from LFR where you can steamroll things without any organisation or teamwork, but the only way to change that is to remove organisation and teamwork from normals which is absurd because that's the whole point of organised raiding.

    I would be okay with LFR getting harder though. Am I the only person who really enjoys taking on Lei Shen every week? Highlight of my LFR!

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 02:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Should be LFR and a Normal mode, that's it. And normal mode should be half puggable and eventually have increasing debuffs. I really don't think there's a good market for hardcore players anymore. If there are any hardmodes I think it should be like Ulduar where you do the encounter differently.
    I think all those heroic mode guilds that clear NM the first week they're released every single tier would disagree with you. It may be a small market but it's a passionate one.
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    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  9. #249
    If they make 10 man easier and lower ilvl like Wrath raids I'll quit raiding. I don't want to be in a 25 at the moment, since most of my friends can't/won't go to one. It's also hard for a tank to find a raid spot in guilds that are decent, as they are decent, in part, because they have stable tanks.

    If they made normal modes overall easier I'd quit raiding, because it wouldn't be fun for me.

    An increasing debuff lets me and my guild go through it at our pace, we get stuck and it will eventually get easier for us to get through. Hence my vote for this option.

    I don't see an opening for a 4th raid difficulty, who would run it? would it share lockouts with normal? Would it be an upgraded form of LFR? Would it drop loot. I don't like this idea, but I doubt it would make me quit raiding; if my guild decided to run the easy mode instead of normals it might.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Should be LFR and a Normal mode, that's it. And normal mode should be half puggable and eventually have increasing debuffs. I really don't think there's a good market for hardcore players anymore. If there are any hardmodes I think it should be like Ulduar where you do the encounter differently.
    no thx captain casual.

  11. #251
    Mechagnome Eggers's Avatar
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    Dec 2009
    inside of a pizza
    Why is there not an option for leave the game the way it is? This is totally bias IMO... This poll is worthless as those of us who don't agree that people who can't clear normal should be babied anymore are not getting any voice.
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    Anyway, their egos, or "epeens" (electronic penises) aside, here are a few links that may help:

  12. #252
    Why is the gap an issue?

    If Normal is too easy or too hard, that has nothing to do with LFR?

    Seriously what is the problem you are trying to solve?

    The biggest problem with LFR is queues spread out across too many raid wings pushing up queue times. What they need is catch up dungeons, that way the majority of your players are queing for the same raids(the latest) thus keeping queue times down. The current system just makes the situation worse and worse everytime more raid wings get added.

  13. #253
    LFR was made for people to see the content. It is not an alternative form of raiding, and should never have been treated that way.

    People who are now complaining that there's no difficulty in between LFR and normal are the people who were then complaining they never saw the content. And IF a difficulty is added in between, those same people will still complain that they have to conform to a schedule to do it. And IF that gets fixed, they'll complain about even MORE. This is the problem with adding raiding into the casual scene. This is what people like me have been saying would happen the moment easier raids like Naxx 2.0 and ToC came around.

    People got a taste of the easier raiding scene, that was puggable with no issues whatsoever. They realized they could be raiders with little effort if raiding was easy. People who didn't like the easier raiding tried to fight back, because they were passionate about challenging raids, and they got IGNORED. Now that Blizzard has attempted to give challenging raids back to the actual raiders, those same people who always complain that things are either too easy, or too hard, INSIST that they deserve normal mode raiding. LFR was given to these players so they could raid without the stress that comes with raiding. There is NO NEED for a difficulty in between, and Normals should NOT be changed from the way they are in ToT. If you have a problem with stepping up your game to clear content, then don't fucking leave LFR. I'm sick of watching this game go to shit because people aren't willing to try harder.

  14. #254
    I haven't read through the responses that other people have given but I think that I have an idea that might work.

    Have 25m Normal and Heroic on one lockout
    have 10m and lfr on one lockout similar to how lfr is now. Basically you can do 10m or lfr as much as you want, but the gear that drops is lfr hear and it only drops on the first kill (And they drop the same gear and the 10m is tuned slightly harder than lfr and slighly easier than 25m normal, about halfway in the middle)

    There is no more hardcore 10m raiding scene (I know some people will dislike this but, eh, its my opinion <3)

    This will allow for the lfr guys to step into 10m for fairly easily so that they can hone their skills as "real raiders" as opposed to "lfr raiders."

    This would also allow the 25m normal mode raiders to choose to do 10m or 25 lfr because lets face it. It is going to be hard to convince hardcore raiders that lfr isn't mandatory, because of trinkets, tier, etc.

    Ultimately there would be 4 difficulties (25NHC, 25HC, 10m, and 25lfr) this would allow for slighlty less work to go into each tier, and people would stop arguing about 10 vs. 25.

    The only thing I really dislike about this idea is that hardcore 10m guilds would a) be forced to break up and have the members join 25m guilds b) become significantly more casual c) combine with other 10m hardcore guilds to form a super guild with likely awful leadership conflicts or d) just quit the game.

    but seeing as how this a thread on how to shrink the gap from lfr to normal I think that would work. Main reason I like it is because it would allow me to not have to do lfr ^.^

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    blizzard lost 1.3 million subs
    Why do people always bring up this argument? Of fucking course they're losing subs. It's an old game. It's bound to happen when you run with outdated grahpics etc. It'll probably never be fixxed.

    T: I can't really see the gap...
    But, I say. Ramp the difficulty on RF up. Hell.. Even ToT RF Was amazing the first 2 - 3 weeks. Because noone knew what they were doing and people actually had to THINK to come up with tactics (Or just follow the big yellow text in the middle of the screen). But nontheless. It was actually FUN. Nowadays I really can't be arsed to RUN RF since
    1: The queues are too long
    2: Almost never gets loot (Bad luck, Yep. That's me)
    3: It's boring. Since people don't even talk in there now.

    EDIT: Didn't vote btw. None of the answers felt right.

    {◕ ◡ ◕}

  16. #256
    Just nerf normal modes. With the normal difficulty of ToT or DS we'd clear it in the first week anyways

  17. #257
    High Overlord braayden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    I don't get why heroic isn't just unlocked right away for people who want to do it anyway - normal isn't meant for them. Top guilds already have a knowledge of the fight from PTR anyway. Personally I like the normal difficulty, I just don't like mechanics that allow one player to wipe nine other people and waste a try.
    Steve Dalton of Enlightened Industries - EVE Online

  18. #258
    Legendary! Aviemore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Edinburgh, Scotland.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kreeb View Post
    Tuning raids for "speciel needs" would destroy raiding. Normal mode are EASY. If you can't handle them stick to LFR, it's created for people like you.
    I've been on these forums for a while, and that's potentially the most arrogant comment I've ever come across. You're judging someone (me, in this case) whom you don't know, have never seen play, and have no basis to judge his ability on. Luckily, we can remedy this; my signature gives you the option to figure out who you're talking to so, before coming back with more elitist twaddle, take a look through my details.


    Nobody is talking about "tuning raids for special needs" (I fixed your spelling, by the way - no need to thank me). The issue is that normal raids are statistically too difficult for players approaching raiding as beginners, and the WoW Progress numbers insinuate this very, very heavily. It's not rocket science. You may say that a progress raider should enjoy the hard work and wipes, but new players will not enjoy it - particularly on normal mode encounters where they may play perfectly, and it only takes one person to wipe them.

    Part of the problem with normal mode raiding, particularly for newcomers, is the time investment involved. A "casual" player is one whose playtime is limited, commonly it's completely divorced from a person's ability to play. In order for them to beat the gearing hump, they're forced into a thankless LFR farm, dailies and valor grinding. To learn an encounter, a commitment to outside sources will be required so that encounters can be studied before pulled; good luck figuring out Dark Animus with only the Dungeon Journal to help you. Now, you've already proven that you lack any semblance of an understanding of other people, so I'll make this clear:

    The current raiding model is pricing casuals out entirely, because it's demanding a time investment many can't hope to meet. The "gap" discussed has as much to do with time as it does with skill. Potentially more so.


    You're utterly ignoring the individuals who simply want to play with their friends and enjoy a bit of progression on their own terms - these are the players that were brought in and given the best content during Wrath of the Lich King, but have since been utterly ignored by Blizzard because Cataclysm heralded the developers decision to listen to people like you. Except, your own argument is self contradictory and you don't see why. You said "normals are easy", an implication that you burned through them in no time and started work on heroic modes. Is that a fair assumption? In which case, let me ask you this:

    Why are you so bothered about "easy" content being made more accessible for other people?

    Heroic modes are there for the committed and dedicated players, and LFR is there for those who can't (or choose not to) commit to a set raiding schedule. The ultra-casual and the ultra-committed have their areas for raiding. So who does normal mode serve? Currently, it's hammering the people it's supposedly aimed at, something that's statistically proven by the way, so we can safely say that IT'S TOO HARD.


    Let's forget your rambling comment and stick a pin in the fact that it was a snowflake comment designed to look impressive to those who lack the capability to think for themselves. It's fine, there are plenty of you.

    Let's instead concentrate on what could be described as the "recruitment churn". Recently, two very well-known American guilds tried to band together for progression and have since called it a day. Prior to the launch of MoP, the best progression guild in the world (our Finnish chums) called time on 25-man progression due to a lack of recruits that fitted their own criteria. Hell, many top progression guilds are now closing the doors on recruiting tanks because the recruits they're getting just aren't up to it. The problem here is that the players YOU presumably want in YOUR guild are barely getting out of the gates because the raiding model isn't helping them to learn the game, or properly develop as players. The way it used to work saw a casual player enjoy his 10-man content, find he was one of the better players in his guild, and then look to join a 25-man guild. If he then wanted to make the bigger commitment, he could look for server leading guilds and apply for consideration if they had a spot available.

    That individual had probably hit the big ding, done some heroics to gear up, learned to ply his trade in the relatively forgiving environment of 10-man content, then made the step up if he had the time and ability to do so.

    Alas, that curve is now entirely broken. Players going into LFR don't learn anything because you can literally AFK your way through an encounter. If that player then wants to step up, being relatively new to the game, he's likely to get utterly smashed when he attempts this difficulty of normal mode, and will probably be vilified by the likes of you. Because only masochists, idiots and children put up with that type of scorn from prepubescent tough guys on the Internet, decent people find better things to do with their time and depart. This takes more potential emerging talent out of the raiding pool and makes the top guilds have less capable players from which to draw from.

    TL, DR?

    You haven't a clue what you're talking about, your argument is nothing more than a baby spitting its dummy out because someone else has a toy, and you don't even realise that your opinion is hurting your own guild.

    Here endeth the lesson.
    'This community deserves an apology'.
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  19. #259
    Moderator Nobleshield's Avatar
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    Feb 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggers View Post
    Why is there not an option for leave the game the way it is? This is totally bias IMO... This poll is worthless as those of us who don't agree that people who can't clear normal should be babied anymore are not getting any voice.
    Because it's not fine the way it is. This isn't Fox News; repeating a lie over and over again and having other people with agendas validating that lie won't make it true.
    Raids & Dungeons Moderator | Normal Voice | Mod Voice

  20. #260
    in a perfect world, raids would be 1 difficulty (imo) with a blanket 10% nerf to LFR and determination adding 5% every wipe.

    in a 12 boss raid, it'd be split into 4 separate LFR queues, each progressively harder than the last (so every 3 bosses there is a step up in difficulty).

    additional activated "ulduar style" hardmodes on bosses where it felt appropriate to add a hardmode (so not forcing every boss to have hardmode).

    separate 10 and 25 man raids - not lockouts, raids, like tier 4. none of this 1 size fits all bollocks which just leads to fighting over which is more difficult. if you dont have a 25 man guild, do it in LFR or god forbid, work with other guilds on your realm (promoting realm communities), but also...

    add 10 man raids to LFR

    add a separate queue to LFR with activated hardmodes enabled, but require a minor attunement (killing last boss in normal LFR) 10% nerf and determination buff turned off.
    <insert witty signature here>

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