How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[pallyopness]

denying them fun? they can raid lfr....that was made for them. if they cant make the jump from there they simply arent trying. I want to play football, but i cant perform like nfl players so i dont get put onto a professional team. how dare they deny my fun. oh ya flag football is in leagues city wide for people like me....maybe i should pout and throw a fit because i have to play the baddie version of football because im not good enough....same logic

[Granyala]

Nerf 10man.

Why? Because the smaller format is more appealing to the beer league kind of player.

Leave 25m as is, normals are pretty well tuned.

Great thought process. Reward bad players for being bad.

But an accurate one. WoW got popular because it was massively more forgiving than anything else back then.

[Deleted]

They can raid old content like people who work low paying jobs.

Fail. Most low paying jobs are more work than higher paying ones. Whyat gets rewarded in an economy is rarity of skill, not effort expended.

You dont want to get better and be lazy, then go to the bottom of the ladder. Rewarding idiots for being a idiot isnt progression but giving them the illusion. Sounds like a welfare candidate.

Why in jumping fuck are you trying to be all moralistic about a game!

People pay for fun. They find organised but not amazingly difficult raids fun, you want blizzard to not provide their customers with the fun they are paying for because apprently you have the morals of an 18th century methodist priest who sucks lemons through barbed wire or some shit. Madness.

[Granyala]

Fail. Most low paying jobs are more work than higher paying ones. Whyat gets rewarded in an economy is rarity of skill, not effort expended.

Not entirely correct. What's rewarded is the time it takes to get that rare skill.
And I don't think that an R&D engineers job is easier than the fab workers job.

[Nobleshield]

and another thing shahad....why should players be able to clear content at the same pace as others if they arent as good and dont have the same time commitment. that seems pretty messed up to me. you put in more time to clear stuff faster than other people. thats the point! i guess they should hand our first place to all racers in nascar too regardless of how good of a driver they are lol. he is only capable of driving at 60 mph but he deserves to be enshrined with those capable of going 200....give me a break

I don't recall anyone saying CLEAR. There's a HUGE difference between having say 5-6 bosses that you can reasonably kill and then work on the harder bosses and wanting normal mode to be so easy that you can clear it in 2 hours.

I don't want piss easy normal mode that can be cleared in hours. I don't mind progression, bute I hate WALLS. Right now for a majority of guilds, including mine (although to be fair I retired as a serious raider and I'm basically a casual friend who fills a spot, I'm not a "core raider" anymore) that wall is Horridon, the second boss, and for many guilds (including a former guild of mine at the start) at the start of the expansion that wall was Stone Guard, the first boss of what was supposed to be the "entry level" raid. My friends get burned out wiping on Horridon because its, simply put, too early a boss to be such a big wall. People get dejected, people don't want to log in because they don't want to wipe for hours on the second boss of the raid, and then end up having to give up in defeat or go back to T14 or be content with piss easy LFR.

If the later bosses were the harder ones, the walls, there wouldn't be as big an issue. Us "filthy casuals" aren't asking to be able to clear the raid in a month, what we (or rather I personally, and I'm guessing the general opinion) is an actual difficulty curve so we can clear Bosses 1-5 fairly quickly and get them on farm, and then its oh crap Ji-kun (to pick one at random here) is one tough mother, let's get the other bosses down and do some progress on it. Instead it's more like "Okay we've spent the whole week wiping on the 2nd boss, fuck this crap" and people get dejected and don't want to bother anymore.

Do you see the difference?

[Deleted]

Not entirely correct. What's rewarded is the time it takes to get that rare skill.

Time doesn't mean anything - all that matters is rarity of skill. If that rarity gets handed out in a genetic lottery (see playboy models, atheletes, intellectual geniuses) then the economy doesn't care.

And I don't think that an R&D engineers job is easier than the fab workers job.

Sure it is. R&D guys don't have to stop work at 45 because their lower back is fucked, and they get to live another decade or two due to the lower demands of their work.

[Shahad]

Because they do not get any better at the game. They still play the wrong way and will never be a heroic raider like you suggested. Why would they get better when content is always nerfed?

These threads exist because of nerfs. Every expansion there are these threads because they are no longer carried by a 30% buff. Now they have to do content with being carried by nerfs and they fail because they never had to get better last tier to progress. If they havent gotten any better by now, then they arent going to as they know the system. Whine and wait, nerfs come, down bosses think they are good raiders, then next expac start all over again.

They would without a doubt get better at the game. I'm not talking about Normal -30% and while likely overgearing it here, I'm talking about Normal mode that requires less raid dps. Same mechanics. They'll learn situational awareness, which is a much more important skill than pulling the mad deeps. Roations and stat priorities can be taught easily to anyone who is willing to learn, but developing raiding skills? That takes practice. Which is exactly what Entry mode would bring. Once they've cleared that for a few tiers in a row, they'll naturally gravitate to Normal mode because it won't be so intimidating and they'll be confident in their ability to execute the fight properly.

[Granyala]

Do you see the difference?

I didn't get what the problem was with Stone Guard and I don't get what the problem is with Horridon.
Both of them are already easy and have been nerfed on top of that.

Seriously, if you can't kill it you're just not really playing your class like you should.

Sure it is. R&D guys don't have to stop work at 45 because their lower back is fucked, and they get to live another decade or two due to the lower demands of their work.

Yeah instead they quit the lab because of burn out syndrome. Just because you don't work physically doesn't mean your work is less stressful or easier.

[pallyopness]

i see a 6000 guild difference between jinrokh and horridon for kills.....out of 26,000+....that to me is not an insanely high wall as is being portrayed...there is 12,000 guild difference between horridon kills and lei shen......so i mean in all honesty for me it comes down to those groups being able to adjust and figure out what is going wrong.....you know....what raiders do....i mean they are raiding which requires them to do what raiding dictates lol...

---------- Post added 2013-05-23 at 04:26 PM ----------

oh and 3 guilds that were having issues on horridon and they can speak up if they want to be known downed horridon off my very simple explanation of what was needed to be done on a "are guilds breaking up because tot is too hard" thread the week i posted it. they sent me a message to say thank you.....thus going back to the point i was saying about raid leadership factoring into a huge role.

[Shahad]

Also, I'd like to point out that if the Devs think there's a gap, with all the data they have that we don't, it's a little silly to argue against it.

[Granyala]

Also, I'd like to point out that if the Devs think there's a gap, with all the data they have that we don't, it's a little silly to argue against it.

You can put in 5 different difficulties. There will always be gaps.

[HeedmySpeed]

What we're seeing here is a huge playerbase that is not happy with the only available form of "raiding" for them: LFR.

But there is a meta game that they constantly ignore: character improvement.
This doesn't just mean gear, it means learning your class and it's potential.
I use to ask people (who are now friends) how to play my class BUT I wouldn't ask something I would get from a website.
Now I have people asking me and now I'm friends with some of the "noobies."

I could go on about these kinds of dynamics but they don't present themselves IF YOU DON'T HAVE TO!

[Shahad]

You can put in 5 different difficulties. There will always be gaps.

Sure, but the Devs think it's significant enough to warrant attention.

[HeedmySpeed]

Also, I'd like to point out that if the Devs think there's a gap, with all the data they have that we don't, it's a little silly to argue against it.

It's a little silly to have full faith in the Devs and how they interpret that data because they haven't always been right in the past...................................................................................... .............................. feels like I'm taking crazy pills.

[Enosh]

You can put in 5 different difficulties. There will always be gaps.

not all gaps are equal

[Shahad]

It's a little silly to have full faith in the Devs and how they interpret that data because they haven't always been right in the past...................................................................................... .............................. feels like I'm taking crazy pills.

But the worst that could happen is that there's an extra difficulty that will be underplayed, like 25N. It doesn't affect anyone and it's equally as silly to be arguing against it.

[Brodeo]

I'd rather see LFR work as more of a pug finder than an automated loot dispenser. Would almost prefer it as a 10 man experience too. Less anonymity, more accountability, easier to work as a group. If they did that and upped the difficulty to bridge the gap between heroic dungeons and normal raiding, i think that would make a better rung in the raid ladder.

LFR is too impersonal and its too easy. It offers no pertinent experience to a new player/raider looking to move up the ladder.

[Pua]

I am comparing the start of a raid tier with start of another raid tier instead of comparing one raid tier with a far undertune raid tier that has again and again been agreed upon to. You are comparing a bike with a bike with no wheels and saying "The bike with wheels went faster". Yeah, that was kinda expected.

What was expected was more desperate digging. I'm glad to see you've not disappointed.

You cant really complain ulduar with T15 in the current state as first off, T15 is current tier, After ulduar there were 1.5 more years of Wrath so plenty of time for people to finnish it.

Haha, it was you that suggested it! Brilliant!

I'm not sure a person could backpedal any faster.

I remember a point in time were more guilds had cleared T9 than T8. Though just to humor you.

That's a fair shout, actually. There were significantly less barriers to clearing out T9, it was definitely easier than T8, and the baseline gear was better. I think being fair to Ulduar would have to include cutting its time short, as most guilds simply moved on after it (which, for me, was a crying shame - I didn't want to leave).

The Siege of Ulduar (H): 31993 (59.29%)
Jin'rokh the Breaker 25956 (99.89%) Jin'rokh the Breaker Normal videos

The Descent into Madness (H): 10721 (19.87%)
Lei Shen 7330 (28.21%)

Now consider that T15 is not even over yet.

Now consider your omission of 10-man, and put those numbers in.

Thanks.

I still believe that comparing numbers between MoP and WotLK is comparing apples and pears. I use first hand boss experience to compare them.

I actually don't have a problem with people using anecdotal evidence. Alas, as you saw with an earlier poster, people just cry about "FACTS OR YOU KNOW NOTHING".

Though lets humor your logic even more.
We are now 1.5 months into T15. Lets check 1.5 months into T8.

1.5 months of T15 7330 Lei-Shen kills
1.5 months of T8 2360 Yogg-Saron kills.

Have fun with those numbers and explain how much harder T15 is.

I'm actually not having fun, really - you're starting to desperately bore me.

I asked you, explicitly, to compare the completion numbers between T8 and T15 in their entirety because you suggested it might be interesting. What do you do? Compare only the entry and end bosses (ignoring the farm section in the middle that keeps casual guilds going), and completely cross out the 10-man completion rates. You then argue "nobody cared about 10-man", when the very debate we're having is about providing compelling content for the more casual players who will gravitate toward a 10-man guild.

The only "apple and pear" discussion going on is the one you're trying to enforce because you can't accept that the game grew when casual players were given development for their characters, and the game has shed nigh-on four million players since departing from this approach.

[Xevarc]

I like raiding 10man Hardcore, And who i raid with, And i know a few people in my raid team dont like 25man, Nor have the computer to run it. Ill be dammed if they make 10mans second best again. Its dreadful not being to reach the same Item as 25mans, Plus there where always problems of 25man loot had a trinket or weapon which was just better.
And then 25mans could just run 10mans too...

[Pua]

The game isn't titled World of Bobcraft. I'm not going to have a debate over a magical yet horrible player with a heart of gold.

I have nerve damage in both my hands. I can't move my fingers at all. All I can move are my wrists. My DPS is average for heroics and I can do every mechanic which doesn't require simultaneous keyboard and mouse control which is rare on encounters. I can only do one or the other at a time. You know, I can't even think a specific one I couldn't do as I sit here. One had something to do with freeing people but I can't remember what it was. If a guy who plays with only two index fingers overlapping his thumbs and who uses both hands to manipulate the mouse does things like Heroic Rag when it was current content then Bob can get his act together and do normal mode.

I actually had a laugh when I read this; not because I think your condition is funny (it's not), but because it reminds me of a player at the start of the expansion that I spent some time to help improve. Essentially, I went through some keybinds with her, set up some cast sequence macros, helped set up her UI and then went through things like GCD maximising, stacking cooldowns, limiting movement etc.

We then got to the point where I was talking about what to cast while moving, and she told me she couldn't do that very well because she only had one hand! She wasn't a bad player, was quite attentive, and her deeps went up every raid - pretty much all you can ask for. And as highly as I think of her, and as well as I remember, I can still accept that she (and you) are very much in the minority. I take my hat off to you, but saying "I can do it, so everyone can" simply isn't realistic.

I'd rather see LFR work as more of a pug finder than an automated loot dispenser. Would almost prefer it as a 10 man experience too. Less anonymity, more accountability, easier to work as a group. If they did that and upped the difficulty to bridge the gap between heroic dungeons and normal raiding, i think that would make a better rung in the raid ladder.

LFR is too impersonal and its too easy. It offers no pertinent experience to a new player/raider looking to move up the ladder.

Funnily enough, I actually think LFR is too hard.

I can literally hear people choking on whatever they're eating when they read that, but I honestly think it's too rough.

Imagine, just for a second, what would happen if you took out all the players who are in there because they believe they have to be (items, legendary drops, Valor), and left solely those who are new to raiding and just want to casually spend some time in a raid instance.

Seriously.

It hardly bears thinking about.

Ill be dammed if they make 10mans second best again. Its dreadful not being to reach the same Item as 25mans, Plus there where always problems of 25man loot had a trinket or weapon which was just better.
And then 25mans could just run 10mans too...

I've pretty much always been a 10-man raider - but I'm coming round to the idea that the WotLK model might just have been the better one for the game and its community. I honestly believe that Tom Chilton and Greg Street ask themselves, every day, why they moved away from something so successful for the sake of a tiny minority of elitists.