How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[isadorr]

I don't want to even vote.... there is no gap between LFR and Normal because Normal IS the easy mode.

LFR = No dps/hps checks/ignore most mechanics.
Normal = Minor dps/hps checks/do the mechanics of each fight properly and win, yes Lei Shen is pretty tough for a normal guild but so was Lei Shen HC, we all need bosses to aim for otherwise it gets boring.
Heroic = dps/hps checks/new mechanics + execute fight and win.

Exactly. Every tier there is whining about difficulty as pugs clear Tot making the argument null and void. It is sad that a human being lacks the ability to use a few buttons and cd's while not standing in the fire. And to add to that they actually attempt to be condescending lol.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 08:12 PM ----------

Been reading this thread as I find the debate interesting.

I'm can see some merits to Injin's points (that Normal TOT is slightly inaccessible to "average" raiders). But I must commend you for a great suggestion. Indeed, I'd like T14 to be semi-current content (as opposed to virtually obsolete due to TOT LFR).

T14 still has SOME mechanic checks that would be an ideal, semi-challenging training ground for newbie raiders. I fully agree that they should drop gear that is upgradeable so you can still remain competitive as you step into TOT after doing normal T14. Good idea!

LFR has its merits in terms of accessibility, but it really just encourages a LOT of people to AFK at the computer (usually among 17 DPS only 10 are actually DPSing the rest are alt tabbed) because mechanics are totally irrelevant. It's really an insult to proper raiding. People do it for the loot, not for any other reason.

T14 was being pugged also just as Tot is now pugged, i dont get where this incredibly difficult content is? People to choose to play with baddies which means that progression isnt the goal but hanging out is. So run old content and hang out, you are raiding and can possibly down bosses.

Tot was tuned around T14 gear so you are asking to have basic heroic gear to enter a instance on normal mode.

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 08:18 PM ----------

It is an assumption, but that is made from the basis of the fact that 6 of the 9 players I raided T14 with are players who completed Black Temple pre-nerf. These are the same guys who finished all normals in T11 & T12 pre-nerf. This is the same group that couldnt' get past Elegon in normal mode.

So granted I'm only basing it on personal experience, but the players I know who couldn't progress through normals are accomplished raiders with a history of raiding for several years. Now consider only 20,000 guilds completed T14 and only 20,000 guilds can down at least 2 bosses in ToT normal - you have to consider that these 20,000 are considerably better then the average raider/guild who completed Black Temple and were into SWP pre-nerf.

So yes, I'm doing a lot of assuming, but I'm not doing it blindly. I'm following a logical path. I think it's fair to say that any guild who can progress past the first couple bosses in ToT are very skilled raiders and are the people who the person I responded to said will all be leaving for Titan. Now take the fact that the casuals know they aren't the ones progressing. They know they are the ones who are un-subbing. The know that MoP progression raiding is not being designed for them

What could possibly cause them to think that WoW is doing a 180 and going full WotLK once Titan is released?

If Titan is hardcore only, the hardcores will leave WoW. The causuals aren't coming back (unless something drastic changes before that time) and there won't be an audiance left. WoW will wither on the vine. That's my assumption if the dude I was quoting is correct. (I have a feeling he's not and Titan will be more casual friendly the he understands, and the casuals will flock there with their millions of subs and the 100,000 hard core raiders will stick to WoW and it's the new model of MoP style Hard and Harder Mode raiding).

---------- Post added 2013-05-26 at 05:02 PM ----------



Beer league casuals expect to progress through 1-3 bosses a month. That means they expect to wipe a few dozen times over the course of 4-6 raid nights, then be past that boss. Then by the 3rd or 4th time they've downed that boss, they expect him to be on farm and take no more then 1-2 attempts as the blow through to the boss they are currently working on.

Do you even put thought in your posts? A new graphics engine will be in Titan which means that requirements to play will be much higher. Hardcore raiders normally have good systems in order to put up good numbers and not have low fps resulting in death. Casual raiders especially the ones i know play with crap computers and most likely couldnt even run Titan.

Harcore raiders stick it out when raiding is challenging and dont cry and quit. Ever wonder why Blizzard puts hardcore raiders on stage at blizzcon? Why they are sponsored and help Wow's marketing with their exposure. Having world rankings and a World first race at the beginning of expansions are from hardcore raiders. Yet you believe they are going to cater to the invisible casual or bad player?

[Keoren]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, but "very often" sounds a bit exaggerated. And this "gap" discussion started long ago before Blizzard stated anything about it so you could say that we are "looking at their decisions critically and objectively".

Regarding the bolded part, I was only addressing his comment and not the topic itself. Something is not correct only because a developer says it and a person is not wrong just because he or she disagrees with a developer.

Our standards for "very often" probably vary, but there is always something in-game that could use or even requires adjusting. I wouldn't really make a topic out of how often this happens. It is more important to acknowledge that at times the camp opposing to the designers' vision will be closer to the ideal.

[Booniehat]

T14 was being pugged also just as Tot is now pugged, i dont get where this incredibly difficult content is? People to choose to play with baddies which means that progression isnt the goal but hanging out is. So run old content and hang out, you are raiding and can possibly down bosses.

Tot was tuned around T14 gear so you are asking to have basic heroic gear to enter a instance on normal mode.[COLOR="red"]

Nothing on my post said incredibly difficult. NO idea who're you were trying to quote?

Anyway, I'm not asking for anything. I was quoting Firefly33. His idea was to remove LFR, make T14 gear the catchup mechanic, by being cheaper to upgrade so you can ease transition into TOT.

In fact assuming full normal TOES gear with full upgrade (496>504), I'd say I'm closer to "asking" for roughly full current LFR set ilevel (which is 502). BTW I highly doubt people who can clear Heroic Tier 14 to get 517 items are the average player. Even now Heroic Empress and Sha are still a decent challenge for most raiders. So let's leave them out of discussion for this purpose.

Now, it's true that HC raiders can wear 490 stuff and full clear TOT 12/12.

Reality: The other 99% can't. Personally I find Normal easy. I raid HMs myself. But I'm also objective enough to know that for "casual" players who just wanna down bosses with friends, it's overtuned.

I get that it's really fun and lulzy to shittalk other WOW players as sucky noobs who stand in fire, but if you can see beyond your own heroic raid group who can pull 200K dps easily, you'll realize that many people are just looking for an organized environment to present them with a decent challenge without wanting to break their keyboard in half.

To be fair now with better gear (516 heroic scenarios + upgrades), the problem is fixing itself. But in 5.2... it was just crap to be with average skilled friends and being stuck on Horridon. I'd usually be pulling 1.5x-2x their DPS. Eventually I had to walk away to find a better raid group. I didn't like having to do that.

[Pua]

Which would be essentially nerfed content playing down to a level instead of the player coming up to meet the challenge. The same exact thing. No reason to get better because bosses are being downed as the content isnt nerfed but faceroll, same result as a nerf.

I've missed a lot of this thread over the last couple of days, but this point bears repeating:

Players of all games and sports improve at different rates and with different motivations.

Normal mode content at the moment is encouraging more people to quit than it is to improve. Remember, Ghostcrawler himself cites gearing up as the ultimate "passive nerf", but players can't gear up when one of the first bosses of a tier is smashing them; and this is particularly bad for new players.

Given the rest of your spiteful posts, I know how you'll respond to this - something along the lines of "too bad". But the question has already been asked multiple times, and ignored just as many.

What are normal modes designed to do?

If they're easy because you're one of the tiny minority of heroic raiders (and are done with normal modes in a week), you should have no logistical problem whatsoever with those modes being made easier so that they're more accessible, particularly in the opening stages. But for new players, bosses like the Stone Guard and Horridon are dreadfully, dreadfully punishing.

Players will try harder if something feels achievable. If something feels beyond achievable, they'll give up. The tipping point is not the same for everyone.

My last point to you is this:

When you first started raiding, whenever it was, did you put up with hundreds of wipes in the early part of an instance? No, of course not. It's something you develop a thicker skin for over time, and not something you're readily prepared for when the game has taught you nothing in its first 90 levels and then expects you to perform complex priority queues or rotations as well as the most convoluted raiding encounters in the history of the game.

Seriously, people need to get a grip on the context of "new players". Saying something is easy, when you've been doing it for years, has got to one of the most absurd arguments I've seen crop up in this thread.

[Booniehat]

Given the fact the quoted person is 13/13HC and in the #32 guild in the world, I think you can discount anything they say about normal being easy mode because they are the 1%. Of course its easy... to THEM. I've repeatedly noticed this as the thread as grown: People will chime in and say how there is no gap, or the gap is fine, and then you check their progression and they're deep into heroic modes; they don't see the gap because they aren't affected by it. The gap only affects the FnF and laid back style guilds that are probably still stuck on Horridon, and were stuck on Stone Guard/Elegon/Garalon in T14 before it, but because so few of those kinds of players post on forums, it gets drowned out in a sea of above-average players wondering what the hell we're all talking about.

EXACTLY.

This thread reminds me of my country, which has the highest Gini Coefficient among all the developed countries of the world. This means that there is a TREMENDOUS difference between the rich and poor, have and have-nots.

Due to various circumstances in my life, I have the benefit and pleasure of rubbing shoulders and befriending both people from the "elite 1%" and the "average"/"middle-class". And it always shocks me how removed from reality some of those 1-percenters are. To them, "average income" means a decent house with 1 car and eating out at a restaurant every other day. Couldn't be further from the truth.

A lot of the people who claim TOT is "easy" - I encourage you to widen your view. The average guild doesn't full clear normal modes. Also, forum posters are usually pretty involved and experienced players and make a tiny fraction of the true WOW raiderbase.

In my HM guild we LOL at how fast a normal boss (lets say Lei Shen) flops over dead. But then I hop on my old server with my friends and casual guild and wipe endlessly on horridon and council because, honestly, HM guilds aren't average players! Who knew?

And in my admittedly limited experience I've only seen TOT full clear pugs on very established raiding servers e.g. Illidan. Those "pugs" are usually Heroic raider's alts who already know what to do and could probably do 80K DPS upon hitting lvl 90 in greens. Go to a less progressed server and you'll see a world of difference.

[RickJamesLich]

EXACTLY.

This thread reminds me of my country, which has the highest Gini Coefficient among all the developed countries of the world. This means that there is a TREMENDOUS difference between the rich and poor, have and have-nots.

Due to various circumstances in my life, I have the benefit and pleasure of rubbing shoulders and befriending both people from the "elite 1%" and the "average"/"middle-class". And it always shocks me how removed from reality some of those 1-percenters are. To them, "average income" means a decent house with 1 car and eating out at a restaurant every other day. Couldn't be further from the truth.

A lot of the people who claim TOT is "easy" - I encourage you to widen your view. The average guild doesn't full clear normal modes. Also, forum posters are usually pretty involved and experienced players and make a tiny fraction of the true WOW raiderbase.

In my HM guild we LOL at how fast a normal boss (lets say Lei Shen) flops over dead. But then I hop on my old server with my friends and casual guild and wipe endlessly on horridon and council because, honestly, HM guilds aren't average players! Who knew?

And in my admittedly limited experience I've only seen TOT full clear pugs on very established raiding servers e.g. Illidan. Those "pugs" are usually Heroic raider's alts who already know what to do and could probably do 80K DPS upon hitting lvl 90 in greens. Go to a less progressed server and you'll see a world of difference.

I think the problem is LFR created a lot of bad raiders - people that pretty much expect loot without putting in much effort, and when they get to normal modes it's a huge shock. I think the real answer is making raids in which you can possibly wipe, stuff like Garalon, Lei Shen, and more, these are the types of bosses that need to be in LFR. When the game is raining epics, sure it's fun at first, but it gets kinda boring when you have nothing to do, and that's where the fun of a challenge comes in.

And if you try LFR, for some of the harder bosses, you'd be amazed at how many people don't feel like looking up mechanics even though the game has detailed explanations for each boss. Essentially, LFR pretty much gives people that would be interested in raiding the total opposite of what you'd actually get in raids (minus that there's 25 people in there and epics). Because of this, I think the "easy mode" is a bad idea, if LFR is boring, doing a second mode in which you can afk or skip mechanics would end up being boring too, and likely burn players out (think back to the ToC days).

To me at least, it sounds like many in the LFR aren't into raiding, they just want to see the story one time, but they have to keep coming back because that's the only real character progression. The best answer is to give them other options, which 5.3 is starting to do, there's definitely room for more though.

[Booniehat]

I think the problem is LFR created a lot of bad raiders - people that pretty much expect loot without putting in much effort, and when they get to normal modes it's a huge shock. I think the real answer is making raids in which you can possibly wipe, stuff like Garalon, Lei Shen, and more, these are the types of bosses that need to be in LFR. When the game is raining epics, sure it's fun at first, but it gets kinda boring when you have nothing to do, and that's where the fun of a challenge comes in.

And if you try LFR, for some of the harder bosses, you'd be amazed at how many people don't feel like looking up mechanics even though the game has detailed explanations for each boss. Essentially, LFR pretty much gives people that would be interested in raiding the total opposite of what you'd actually get in raids (minus that there's 25 people in there and epics). Because of this, I think the "easy mode" is a bad idea, if LFR is boring, doing a second mode in which you can afk or skip mechanics would end up being boring too, and likely burn players out (think back to the ToC days).

To me at least, it sounds like many in the LFR aren't into raiding, they just want to see the story one time, but they have to keep coming back because that's the only real character progression. The best answer is to give them other options, which 5.3 is starting to do, there's definitely room for more though.

Fully agree, thats why I was supporting the idea that the T14 Raids are indirectly buffed into providing loot that will help people transition into TOT raiding.

HOWEVER, it doesn't fix the biggest problem with raids: Inaccessbility

Raiders only inviting people that "have 16/16 achieve, all the gear" to PUG for those T14 raids As a result most pugs will tend be just raiders inviting other raiders, and those who WANT to raid but lack experience will have a hard route to find a guild that will take them. Raiding becomes inaccessible unless you can commit to a set schedule with the same group of people - which is something people in WOW find trouble with.

Either way the solution needs to be along the lines of "a better catch up mechanic than LFR", one that gives gear, one that doesn't encourage bad play, and most importantly, reasonably accessible to the average raider.


However, I will say 5.3 is generally band-aid fixing the TOT tuning with gear upgrades and such. I would say that if gear upgrades had been properly implemented at the launch of TOT instead of being ridiculously expensive, most people would have had a better time downing TOT bosses. It's still a bandaid fix, but it would have worked.

All in all I just feel Normals could have been tuned down slightly. At launch, they were just downright ridiculous. After some nerfing (Horridon doors) they're still somewhat doable but still a bit hard for the average raider just stepping into TOT. I agree with a previous post who says the boss order is pretty stupid. Some encounters are just too easy to be at the end of the raid, and guys like horridon/council should have been towards the end.

[Definition]

Normal mode IS for casuals. I don't see how they could be made easier, They're already faceroll for the majority of players. The current difficulty is fine, quit bitching

[Deleted]

Merge LFR with normal mode, to a difficulty in-between so to say.
Make them have the same loot and remove the coin system. Heroic loot will be ~10ilvl higher. Don't apply further crap like thunderforged/elite.
Make all modes share lockout , meaning you can only do a certain mode per week. You can still do say first few bosses in LFR and join a normal or heroic group from which boss you left off or beyond, heroic last boss only being available if every other boss was killed in heroic. Also you can't queue for the last wing or further wings of the instance if you haven't killed the bosses in previous wings, to avoid some issues, but you can still join a normal group that's on last boss. Also you can still complete the meta achievements only in normal or heroic.
The difference would be, in normal there is guaranteed loot, and faster clears, while LFR it would take some time farming to get loot. This would also be an incentive for people doing LFR to actually step up their game and play better instead of having 20% of the raid afk and 20% screwing around, some decent and only 4-5 people actually doing their best.

[Gilian]

So we split raiders into casual, hardcore and now also friends-and-family groups? Like that is suddenly something new. I see this is going to end very well.

[Bloodfire]

I don't want to even vote.... there is no gap between LFR and Normal because Normal IS the easy mode.

LFR = No dps/hps checks/ignore most mechanics.
Normal = Minor dps/hps checks/do the mechanics of each fight properly and win, yes Lei Shen is pretty tough for a normal guild but so was Lei Shen HC, we all need bosses to aim for otherwise it gets boring.
Heroic = dps/hps checks/new mechanics + execute fight and win.

Then stop playing.
For you normal may be easy but for somebody it is NOT.
LFR works for those who can't play due to work, study, etc.
They're unlikely to raid on schedule time.

[Pua]

I agree with a previous post who says the boss order is pretty stupid. Some encounters are just too easy to be at the end of the raid, and guys like horridon/council should have been towards the end.

I'd be careful when saying things like that. Sure, fights like Durumu, Primordius and the Twin Consorts look like they're easier... But players have done some gearing up by the time they get there, which plays a part in how easy they feel. If they switched places between Horridon and the Twin Consorts, with no other tuning changes, I'm not sure the latter would feel as easy as it does.

I'm not disagreeing, necessarily, merely suggesting that the difference isn't quite so cut and dry.

Normal mode IS for casuals. I don't see how they could be made easier, They're already faceroll for the majority of players. The current difficulty is fine, quit bitching

11/13 heroic, probably been playing over two years at least.

The "majority of players" don't raid, sweetie; the numbers have already been posted in this thread, and they're pitifully small compared with the playerbase.

Please don't make things up.

It helps nobody.

[Definition]

I'd be careful when saying things like that. Sure, fights like Durumu, Primordius and the Twin Consorts look like they're easier... But players have done some gearing up by the time they get there, which plays a part in how easy they feel. If they switched places between Horridon and the Twin Consorts, with no other tuning changes, I'm not sure the latter would feel as easy as it does.

I'm not disagreeing, necessarily, merely suggesting that the difference isn't quite so cut and dry.





11/13 heroic, probably been playing over two years at least.

The "majority of players" don't raid, sweetie; the numbers have already been posted in this thread, and they're pitifully small compared with the playerbase.

Please don't make things up.

It helps nobody.

I've been playing since 4.3, and I meant that normal is faceroll for the majority of raiders, not players sorry

[Deleted]

I've been playing since 4.3, and I meant that normal is faceroll for the majority of raiders, not players sorry

Still not all that accurate, there is a huge attrition rate amongst people who do manage to kill stuff.

i.e the 75% drop out rate between SG and Sha of fear.

On the subject of Tot - I actually think that now the HC scenario gear and upgrade system are in, it will wind up being pretty well balanced for average raids, the issue being that maybe they won't bother even trying after having been frozen out for weeks.

[Dyptheria]

I actually like that idea cause personally I hate the current LFR and I think there should be more organized raiding. However if it only gave blue heroic gear no one would do it because heroic dungeons would be easier to get gear in, and dailies would give you even better gear so why go threw all the hassel.

Yeah, for some reason I had it in my head that 5 man heroics gave out Epic loot. You're absolutely right, nobody would bother so an LFR dungeon would have to give out gear which reflected the fact that was indeed a raid, rather than a 10-man normal (or heroic) dungeon.

[isadorr]

Trekkie said it last night in Legendary. Normals are too difficult (when an entire heroic diff level exists).
We don't agree. If N is too easy, those guilds plow through N and then get stuck on the much harder H bosses. (Source)Blue Post
The key, which is hard, is that everyone should always have a new boss to look forward to. (Source)Blue Post

Sounds like all of the talk that dev's thought Normal was too hard was a lot of BS. Everyone has a new boss to look forward and just because you log in doesnt mean you should down bosses or clear content because you did before with nerfs.

Another Blue post:So Ion admitted 10N is too hard in MoP - I feel like you don't need to wait to solve this problem... Question
He mentioned some fights in ToT were too hard on 10. They all have been fixed for the most part. (Source) Blue Post
Separately, he speculated that there is an audience that might use LFR level difficulty without random matchmaking. (Source)Blue Post

People performing at the LFR Difficulty wanting to clear Normal mode. Stating that the difficulty wasnt so much the problem as guilds performing at a low level like many of us have been saying on this thread.

[Deleted]

Trekkie said it last night in Legendary. Normals are too difficult (when an entire heroic diff level exists).
We don't agree. If N is too easy, those guilds plow through N and then get stuck on the much harder H bosses. (Source)Blue Post
The key, which is hard, is that everyone should always have a new boss to look forward to. (Source)Blue Post

Sounds like all of the talk that dev's thought Normal was too hard was a lot of BS. Everyone has a new boss to look forward and just because you log in doesnt mean you should down bosses or clear content because you did before with nerfs.

I think the plan was to have normals be nerfed by the 5.3 upgrade/HC scenario loot system. I agree that it's going to help a lot of folks out. This is of course the same as admitting normals were too hard for most players at release.

Another Blue post:So Ion admitted 10N is too hard in MoP - I feel like you don't need to wait to solve this problem... Question
He mentioned some fights in ToT were too hard on 10. They all have been fixed for the most part. (Source) Blue Post
Separately, he speculated that there is an audience that might use LFR level difficulty without random matchmaking. (Source)Blue Post

People performing at the LFR Difficulty wanting to clear Normal mode. Stating that the difficulty wasnt so much the problem as guilds performing at a low level like many of us have been saying on this thread.

And blizzard has helped them out by letting them farm 516 gear and upgrade their epics. Tbf, it was probably always the plan - let the dedicated have tot to themselves for a good few weeks and then let everyone else catch up via gear + some nerfs.

If that was the plan I'd agree it's a good one as long as the gear is sufficient to overcome mechanics, but it's been really badly communicated. I just hope that those who got stuck on horridon and handed their subs in will come back. Tot is a great raid.

[Voidgazer]

Remove LFR, force wannabe raiders to actually get good.

Normal difficulty was perfect in MoP (with exception of few overtuned gear check fights).

Different ilvl in 10m and 25m is the worst "solution" one can think of and is not a solution at all. Lowering 10m ilvl would lead to all 10m guilds treated as second class citizens and tons of frustration for the core players.

[Deleted]

What I would do is

HCDUNGEONS> heroic dungeons drop heroic blue's + 'LFR' lvl weapons @ last bosses
LFR> have LFR only drop lfr level gear + necklaces etc (no trinkets) + "small chance of 'normal lvl' drop"
make the gap between HC dungeons and LFR smaller and slightly increase gap between LFR and NORMAL
JP> JP for gear to enter LFR or slightly increase overall iLVL or for PvP entry
VP> VP for normal lvl rings and necklaces + trinkets
NORMAL RAID> Normal raids drop normal lvl gear and weapons with a small chance of a 'heroic drops' @ overall bosses
HEROIC RAID> heroic raids drop hc level gear and weapons + an 'elite drop' @ last boss (elite lvl = next tier normal lvl?)

^it's late, might be confusing^

I just don't think it would make any sense having items of certain ilvl drop from other than the appropriate difficulty of the content.

OT: I don't really think any of the options in the poll would be a good solution. I would simply remove LFR, and possibly drop the difficulty of the first few normal mode bosses to allow more casual players to get into raiding, the way it used to be in Wrath and pre-LFR Cata.
There wouldn't be "Cockblock" encounters, such as Garalon, within the first few bosses. A lot of guilds got stuck on Horridon for days when ToT opened. Second boss is way too soon. But the thing is, bosses with awkward mechanics such as Garalon would still be on LFR, and they would have to be nerfed to the ground for LFR raids to succeed. That just shows that Blizzard wants to make sure you kill the boss on LFR. If a boss isn't dead after 3 wipes, the group will most likely disband. That's not what raiding is about. Endgame should be about working together with your friends, and experiencing it as a team. Imo LFR fails at this, since it's more or less every man for himself. Sure, players get to see the boss encounters and the environment, but you can't really call it experiencing the content.

[Strakha]

Just do LFR. Normal is meant to be a challenge. it is the default setting. it is the way you are supposed to win. Less or more is just harder or easier. Hence it is normal.

You should be able to conquer this, if not, keep trying.