How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[Deleted]

It bothers me in the sense that the more content are being dumbed down, the more players get dumbed down, the harder it become to find decent players to substain your raid team..

Yes, as a recruiter I see this already. People apply to my guild 50 item levels behind the curve and think that because they bothered to make the app that means I need to accept them. Players who I know their own class better than they do. Who can't answer questions like "Why do you gem this way?"

I don't think I've had more than perhaps one recruit this entire expansion where I've really felt they were something special. By and large it's sifting through the layers of spam to try and get a prime cut that wants to show up 3x a week and do their job. And doesn't burn the people in my guild that actually have some talent out.

If this happens at starting heroics level, I can only imagine what shite the better guilds get spammed with.

[Deleted]

Oh yeah, you didn't repond to my comment about the gap.

Are you really saying you can get 10 or 25 complete strangers, go to normal modes and kill everything 1 or 2 pulls?

With no boss mods, voip, leadership, gems, chants etc?

it's time to either back a lunatic proposition or admit theres a gap, good buddy.

Noone is arguing that there is not a gap. There is a gap between everything.

Heck when I leveled up my BRM, I was pulling the entire instance in Jade Serpent / SSB instances, but in MP and SPM I got (in comparison) wrecked. Does this mean that level 87 instances should be nerfed because of the huge gap between them and the 85 instances? No, ofc not. That would just be silly.

There are gaps between everything, the question is when that gap becomes unjustifiable, and I do not believe that normal modes except Horridon are in the place right now. Horridon is not too hard for a normal mode boss, but he is considering he is the second boss in the instance.

It is straight facts that the success rate is not nearly as low as you pretend to make it in normals, and that in heroic you are noticing a gap roughly 300-400% bigger. Making normals easier would only make that gap astronomical.

---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 04:08 PM ----------

Yes, as a recruiter I see this already. People apply to my guild 50 item levels behind the curve and think that because they bothered to make the app that means I need to accept them. Players who I know their own class better than they do. Who can't answer questions like "Why do you gem this way?"

I don't think I've had more than perhaps one recruit this entire expansion where I've really felt they were something special. By and large it's sifting through the layers of spam to try and get a prime cut that wants to show up 3x a week and do their job. And doesn't burn the people in my guild that actually have some talent out.

If this happens at starting heroics level, I can only imagine what shite the better guilds get spammed with.

Yes, it is really unbelievable how terrible people applying for guilds now.

People are 30-40 item levels behind, not even gemmed/enchanted.
People are to lazy to write and application
People consider clearing ICC25HC in Cataclysm to be 'raiding experience'.
People have 4/12 in ToT and expect to get carried into heroic mode raiding. Anyone can easily have pugged 12/12 by now.

The ones that you actually let in to trial (1 in 100)
-Do not show up on time
-Do not attend as many raids as expected
-Are really really bad at playing their class

Recruiting in current state wow is just a nightmare.

[Deleted]

Noone is arguing that there is not a gap. There is a gap between everything.

Heck when I leveled up my BRM, I was pulling the entire instance in Jade Serpent / SSB instances, but in MP and SPM I got (in comparison) wrecked. Does this mean that level 87 instances should be nerfed because of the huge gap between them and the 85 instances? No, ofc not. That would just be silly.

There are gaps between everything, the question is when that gap becomes unjustifiable, and I do not believe that normal modes except Horridon are in the place right now. Horridon is not too hard for a normal mode boss, but he is considering he is the second boss in the instance.

It is straight facts that the success rate is not nearly as low as you pretend to make it in normals, and that in heroic you are noticing a gap roughly 300-400% bigger. Making normals easier would only make that gap astronomical.

You are other hardcore raiders sense of entitlement is staggering. You expect the whole game to be crafted around providing you all with new amazingly skilled, knowledgeable raiders with no effort on your own part. it's almost as bad as your collective misunderstanding of what the average normal mode raider is looking for (just to down some stuff without massive headaches and effort, fuck heroic raids who cares.)

Actually, fwiw I believe that the gap has now been pretty much closed by the HC scenario loot + the nerfs, but blizzard might want to keep an eye on the amount of mechanics they throw at normal raiders in future, or give them a place pre raid to learn mechanics once more. They also might want to communicate a lot more effectively what their plans are, as many who left at horridon will be lost for good, which is a shame.

[Shahad]

Yes, as a recruiter I see this already. People apply to my guild 50 item levels behind the curve and think that because they bothered to make the app that means I need to accept them. Players who I know their own class better than they do. Who can't answer questions like "Why do you gem this way?"

I don't think I've had more than perhaps one recruit this entire expansion where I've really felt they were something special. By and large it's sifting through the layers of spam to try and get a prime cut that wants to show up 3x a week and do their job. And doesn't burn the people in my guild that actually have some talent out.

If this happens at starting heroics level, I can only imagine what shite the better guilds get spammed with.

One could argue that since there's nothing between LFR and Normal, players who see themselves nearly topping meters on LFR get the wrong expectations of what Normal and Heroic raiding is and think they are ready for that. Wouldn't having a more linear difficulty increase with Normal bosses or an Entry mode raid alleviate that?

[Deleted]

Dismissing a "fact" that should be self-evident?

You've reached the point in the conversation where you're not actually making an iota of sense.

Am I not? I will try to put it out as simple as that even you can understand it.


Okay. So you have these 2 bosses, that are after eachother in an instance. Are you following?
Like Horridon/Council, Durumu/Primordius etc. Still following?

If you check how many players killed each boss, comparing it with how many players killed the next boss you will know how many people that are still 'wiping' on a boss. This is of course not including pugs that for some reason registers on WoWprogress and guilds that faction/realm change/change guild name which can create duplicate guild. Say my guild is 6/12N and change server / disband. That is forever a guild stuck on 6/12

So, by checking this we can see how much of a 'brick wall' a boss is, how many % of the guilds that have access to a boss that is still wiping there. By extent, this also means how big the 'gap' is, since if boss 1 is very easy and boss 2 very hard, more guilds will reach that brick wall.

If you do this check for ToT normals and heroic on every boss and put it together. You will see that normal modes are far, far, far easier than heroics in comparison. The gap is a lot smaller in normals.

The 1 drawback of this is that we can not check how many guilds is actually wiping on Jin'Rokh. Though given how much of a 'loot pinata' Jin'Rokh is considered to be, I think we can logically claim this to be a non-important factor. Just as pugs killing 1/12N and pugs in general is a huge factor on the first normal mode bosses.

Add that all together and we get this.



Now these numbers are a bit old since I did this last week.

The two normal modes that stand out is Horridon, which I agree is way way way too hard.
Aswell as Durumu. Durumu is in my opinion not to hard for a normal mode boss, the success rate is still far higher there than on the heroic mode bosses.
Durumu could probably have switched places with Twins to make it a bit better progression, but Ji-Kun being a bit of a loot pinata aswell of course makes durumus success rate lower.

[Pua]

One could argue that since there's nothing between LFR and Normal, players who see themselves nearly topping meters on LFR get the wrong expectations of what Normal and Heroic raiding is and think they are ready for that. Wouldn't having a more linear difficulty increase with Normal bosses or an Entry mode raid alleviate that?

Yes, it would.

Am I not? I will try to put it out as simple as that even you can understand it.

Repeating an argument long dead, while also trying to patronize someone who's schooled you multiple times, is not the best way to make a point.

If you do this check for ToT normals and heroic on every boss and put it together. You will see that normal modes are far, far, far easier than heroics in comparison. The gap is a lot smaller in normals.

This argument has already been crucified, multiple times.

You are the weakest link.

Please say goodbye.

[Mikey P]

I've been on these forums for a while, and that's potentially the most arrogant comment I've ever come across. You're judging someone (me, in this case) whom you don't know, have never seen play, and have no basis to judge his ability on. Luckily, we can remedy this; my signature gives you the option to figure out who you're talking to so, before coming back with more elitist twaddle, take a look through my details.

Firstly:

Nobody is talking about "tuning raids for special needs" (I fixed your spelling, by the way - no need to thank me). The issue is that normal raids are statistically too difficult for players approaching raiding as beginners, and the WoW Progress numbers insinuate this very, very heavily. It's not rocket science. You may say that a progress raider should enjoy the hard work and wipes, but new players will not enjoy it - particularly on normal mode encounters where they may play perfectly, and it only takes one person to wipe them.

Part of the problem with normal mode raiding, particularly for newcomers, is the time investment involved. A "casual" player is one whose playtime is limited, commonly it's completely divorced from a person's ability to play. In order for them to beat the gearing hump, they're forced into a thankless LFR farm, dailies and valor grinding. To learn an encounter, a commitment to outside sources will be required so that encounters can be studied before pulled; good luck figuring out Dark Animus with only the Dungeon Journal to help you. Now, you've already proven that you lack any semblance of an understanding of other people, so I'll make this clear:

The current raiding model is pricing casuals out entirely, because it's demanding a time investment many can't hope to meet. The "gap" discussed has as much to do with time as it does with skill. Potentially more so.

Secondly:

You're utterly ignoring the individuals who simply want to play with their friends and enjoy a bit of progression on their own terms - these are the players that were brought in and given the best content during Wrath of the Lich King, but have since been utterly ignored by Blizzard because Cataclysm heralded the developers decision to listen to people like you. Except, your own argument is self contradictory and you don't see why. You said "normals are easy", an implication that you burned through them in no time and started work on heroic modes. Is that a fair assumption? In which case, let me ask you this:

Why are you so bothered about "easy" content being made more accessible for other people?

Heroic modes are there for the committed and dedicated players, and LFR is there for those who can't (or choose not to) commit to a set raiding schedule. The ultra-casual and the ultra-committed have their areas for raiding. So who does normal mode serve? Currently, it's hammering the people it's supposedly aimed at, something that's statistically proven by the way, so we can safely say that IT'S TOO HARD.

Thirdly:

Let's forget your rambling comment and stick a pin in the fact that it was a snowflake comment designed to look impressive to those who lack the capability to think for themselves. It's fine, there are plenty of you.

Let's instead concentrate on what could be described as the "recruitment churn". Recently, two very well-known American guilds tried to band together for progression and have since called it a day. Prior to the launch of MoP, the best progression guild in the world (our Finnish chums) called time on 25-man progression due to a lack of recruits that fitted their own criteria. Hell, many top progression guilds are now closing the doors on recruiting tanks because the recruits they're getting just aren't up to it. The problem here is that the players YOU presumably want in YOUR guild are barely getting out of the gates because the raiding model isn't helping them to learn the game, or properly develop as players. The way it used to work saw a casual player enjoy his 10-man content, find he was one of the better players in his guild, and then look to join a 25-man guild. If he then wanted to make the bigger commitment, he could look for server leading guilds and apply for consideration if they had a spot available.

That individual had probably hit the big ding, done some heroics to gear up, learned to ply his trade in the relatively forgiving environment of 10-man content, then made the step up if he had the time and ability to do so.

Alas, that curve is now entirely broken. Players going into LFR don't learn anything because you can literally AFK your way through an encounter. If that player then wants to step up, being relatively new to the game, he's likely to get utterly smashed when he attempts this difficulty of normal mode, and will probably be vilified by the likes of you. Because only masochists, idiots and children put up with that type of scorn from prepubescent tough guys on the Internet, decent people find better things to do with their time and depart. This takes more potential emerging talent out of the raiding pool and makes the top guilds have less capable players from which to draw from.

TL, DR?

You haven't a clue what you're talking about, your argument is nothing more than a baby spitting its dummy out because someone else has a toy, and you don't even realise that your opinion is hurting your own guild.

Here endeth the lesson.

I just want to quote this post for how well written, and absolutely true it is. Offline, I could see Kreeb doing the following. Berating some beer league softball players for managing to go yard on a shorter than normal fence, and having a few too many pops, thus not taking the game seriously enough. Meanwhile, Kreeb threw together a team with a few of his pals that played some division III college ball, but is sandbagging it in the same beer league, all the while pointing at his gaudy stats and team's inflated record.

[Deleted]

One could argue that since there's nothing between LFR and Normal, players who see themselves nearly topping meters on LFR get the wrong expectations of what Normal and Heroic raiding is and think they are ready for that. Wouldn't having a more linear difficulty increase with Normal bosses or an Entry mode raid alleviate that?

I recently joined a second raiding guild with my alt, that only raided 2 days per week on different times than my main raid. For all sense and purposes, these guys are that Friends and Family guild. Only raiding there for the fun and to have some fun and get some gear on my alt.

So I know exactly what is going on in some of those guilds. What I absolutely loved about the guild that I joined though was that they are progressing through T14. That is great. They got Jin'Rokh down in ToT but are now working on T14H to gear people up.

When I joined they had only cleared normals but was just about to start on heroics.

On stone guards they had a new tank that never tanked stone guards before. I simply talked to him quickly 2 minutes explained to him what to taunt and when. He never failed once. Wiped once because of people failing chains but killed it in the second pull. Feng died in 3 pulls, Gara'Jal in 4 or 5. After that we cleared rest on normal due to lack of time.

This is my eyes is great and I absolutely loved this.

I really like how so many people are complaining "we need this mode between LFR and ToT normal where you can go in, wipe a few times and get a kill".
Yeah, hello, wake up call, that already exists, T14 Heroics.
T14 heroics is actually a great stepping stone into T15. Not saying you should clear all of them. But if you clear 4-5/6 in MSV and get a few bosses down in HoF and ToES you are ready for ToT for sure.
Sadly people do not do this as LFR and heroic scenarios drop way to good gear for the effort required. So why go get i502/509 gear when you can get i502 for free.

[TCceen]

I think removing gear from LFR is one of the dumbest things I've heard on these forums and I'm a 13/13H raider with no incentive to run LFR. The gear is still horrible despite it's color and LFR is still in most cases much harder than say heroic 5mans. I have friends that have very little time to play that gear up mostly through LFR and they would probably stop playing if they maxed out in 463 blues. I don't blame them. Character progression is the driving force of MMOs and RPGs in general for the vast majority and it's not hurting anyone that people are getting really bad 502 epics from LFR.

Thanks, well said. I used to raid hardcore until the beginning of Cataclysm. I had lost my job close to Cat release and was unemployed for quite a while. I wound up having to get 2 full time jobs just to make 1/2 of what I was making and to keep my house, leaving hardly any time at all to play. I reverted to only progressing through Arena, which I had never cared for before but if I could not progress I refused to play. Later in Cat came the blessing of LFR! sure it was nothing like I was used to, but it gave me a reason to play. My main job hours being from 1am to 9am meant my days off were spent in the weeee hours of the night. There is no game that provides a raiding environment, or such progression model (built in, yes i know i could search guild world wide and server xfer yadda yadda). I had many friends who could never get into raiding or dedicate set times throughout the week bound to an attendance schedule, and now I can actually play the game 'with' them, on their time and my time. And to be completely honest I think this is 100x more fun than when I was hardcore raiding with misc guildmates all around the country. It's nice to play with my real friends, roomy and my boyfriend. Sure X game just came out and has sexy beautiful graphics and updated features etc etc... but WoW still accommodates, and delivers. I'm still working both jobs, I have promoted in both, just not working as many hours and I still find the balance to be able to play WITH loved ones, at least 2 days a week

[Deleted]

Repeating an argument long dead, while also trying to patronize someone who's schooled you multiple times, is not the best way to make a point.

This argument has already been crucified, multiple times.

You are the weakest link.

Please say goodbye.

Sorry hun, I failed to see when you schooled me or when this argument has been crucified.

You are the one not able to reply, so I would claim you are the weakest link. I can counter your arguments, you cant counter mine.

So sorry, would have to say you are weakest link.

K thx bye.

[Shahad]

I recently joined a second raiding guild with my alt, that only raided 2 days per week on different times than my main raid. For all sense and purposes, these guys are that Friends and Family guild. Only raiding there for the fun and to have some fun and get some gear on my alt.

So I know exactly what is going on in some of those guilds. What I absolutely loved about the guild that I joined though was that they are progressing through T14. That is great. They got Jin'Rokh down in ToT but are now working on T14H to gear people up.

When I joined they had only cleared normals but was just about to start on heroics.

On stone guards they had a new tank that never tanked stone guards before. I simply talked to him quickly 2 minutes explained to him what to taunt and when. He never failed once. Wiped once because of people failing chains but killed it in the second pull. Feng died in 3 pulls, Gara'Jal in 4 or 5. After that we cleared rest on normal due to lack of time.

This is my eyes is great and I absolutely loved this.

I really like how so many people are complaining "we need this mode between LFR and ToT normal where you can go in, wipe a few times and get a kill".
Yeah, hello, wake up call, that already exists, T14 Heroics.
T14 heroics is actually a great stepping stone into T15. Not saying you should clear all of them. But if you clear 4-5/6 in MSV and get a few bosses down in HoF and ToES you are ready for ToT for sure.
Sadly people do not do this as LFR and heroic scenarios drop way to good gear for the effort required. So why go get i502/509 gear when you can get i502 for free.

But what about during T14? There was no easier older content to run in lieu of Normals then. Sure, the current model works now when we are in the second tier of the expansion, but it's flawed because those guilds won't have anything to do the first tier and won't do the last tier until the next expansion is about to drop.

[Ferocity]

People have 4/12 in ToT and expect to get carried into heroic mode raiding. Anyone can easily have pugged 12/12 by now.

Why people keep arguing with Firefly? He seems to be completely out of touch with reality.

I really like how so many people are complaining "we need this mode between LFR and ToT normal where you can go in, wipe a few times and get a kill".
Yeah, hello, wake up call, that already exists, T14 Heroics.
T14 heroics is actually a great stepping stone into T15. Not saying you should clear all of them. But if you clear 4-5/6 in MSV and get a few bosses down in HoF and ToES you are ready for ToT for sure.

Heroic raids should never serve as stepping stone to next tier normal raid. As you see from many posts, many normal mode raiders are ok with not "pretending" on heroic modes, and many of them don't really aim for doing those and don't feel like "progressing" on exactly same bosses just with couple new twists and much higher requirements.

What will be the next nonsence? T15hc as a stepping stone to T16 normals? It is rather sad than funny.

[Deleted]

Am I not? I will try to put it out as simple as that even you can understand it.


Okay. So you have these 2 bosses, that are after eachother in an instance. Are you following?
Like Horridon/Council, Durumu/Primordius etc. Still following?

If you check how many players killed each boss, comparing it with how many players killed the next boss you will know how many people that are still 'wiping' on a boss. This is of course not including pugs that for some reason registers on WoWprogress and guilds that faction/realm change/change guild name which can create duplicate guild. Say my guild is 6/12N and change server / disband. That is forever a guild stuck on 6/12

So, by checking this we can see how much of a 'brick wall' a boss is, how many % of the guilds that have access to a boss that is still wiping there. By extent, this also means how big the 'gap' is, since if boss 1 is very easy and boss 2 very hard, more guilds will reach that brick wall.

If you do this check for ToT normals and heroic on every boss and put it together. You will see that normal modes are far, far, far easier than heroics in comparison. The gap is a lot smaller in normals.

The 1 drawback of this is that we can not check how many guilds is actually wiping on Jin'Rokh. Though given how much of a 'loot pinata' Jin'Rokh is considered to be, I think we can logically claim this to be a non-important factor. Just as pugs killing 1/12N and pugs in general is a huge factor on the first normal mode bosses.

Add that all together and we get this.



Now these numbers are a bit old since I did this last week.

The two normal modes that stand out is Horridon, which I agree is way way way too hard.
Aswell as Durumu. Durumu is in my opinion not to hard for a normal mode boss, the success rate is still far higher there than on the heroic mode bosses.
Durumu could probably have switched places with Twins to make it a bit better progression, but Ji-Kun being a bit of a loot pinata aswell of course makes durumus success rate lower.

the 1/13 HC is that just you killed 1 random boss in heroic or is it you killed the first in heroic and is it the same way the whole way down?
I remember 1 guild being ranked lower on wowprogress because they killed a later easier heroic encounter than dark animus.
So where are the numbers from? from the frontpage of wowprogress or did you go through all 7000 guilds or so doing heroic ToT. And checked what they had killed already.
Technicly all bosses are available for heroic testing.

[Firebert]

Yes, it is really unbelievable how terrible people applying for guilds now.

People are 30-40 item levels behind, not even gemmed/enchanted.
People are to lazy to write and application
People consider clearing ICC25HC in Cataclysm to be 'raiding experience'.
People have 4/12 in ToT and expect to get carried into heroic mode raiding. Anyone can easily have pugged 12/12 by now.

The ones that you actually let in to trial (1 in 100)
-Do not show up on time
-Do not attend as many raids as expected
-Are really really bad at playing their class

Recruiting in current state wow is just a nightmare.

It's really unbelievable how terribly high guilds set their benchmark for raiding.

They want full Normal ToT gear when the best you can get is in LFR
They want almost as much detail from your app as a bank statement and criminal background check combined
They consider any experience outside of ToT worthless
They don't understand that players can skip content.

And if you even get into one of these guilds:
They do not allow your life to ever get in the way of the game, ever,
They do not allow you any days off,
They expect all your non-raiding free time to be on EJ/AJ/etc. learning about everything in the game.

Recruiters, in the current state wow is, are just power tripping. It's a nightmare.

[Deleted]

the 1/13 HC is that just you killed 1 random boss in heroic or is it you killed the first in heroic and is it the same way the whole way down?
I remember 1 guild being ranked lower on wowprogress because they killed a later easier heroic encounter than dark animus.
So where are the numbers from? from the frontpage of wowprogress or did you go through all 7000 guilds or so doing heroic ToT. And checked what they had killed already.
Technicly all bosses are available for heroic testing.

I went through all guilds on wow progress checking how many was at each progress stage. For example some guilds are 6/13HC are ranked higher than guilds at 8/13HC because they killed the first 6 in HC in a row. So I went through and check them all.

Some of them that were 1/13 HC killed other bosses than jin'rokh yes.

These numbers are 1 week old now though.

[Shahad]

It's really unbelievable how terribly high guilds set their benchmark for raiding.

They want full Normal ToT gear when the best you can get is in LFR
They want almost as much detail from your app as a bank statement and criminal background check combined
They consider any experience outside of ToT worthless
They don't understand that players can skip content.

And if you even get into one of these guilds:
They do not allow your life to ever get in the way of the game, ever,
They do not allow you any days off,
They expect all your non-raiding free time to be on EJ/AJ/etc. learning about everything in the game.

Recruiters, in the current state wow is, are just power tripping. It's a nightmare.

Both you and the person you are quoting are making abusive generalisations and exaggerations. I hope you're proud, both of you.

[Firebert]

Both you and the person you are quoting are making abusive generalisations and exaggerations. I hope you're proud, both of you.

Oh I am. Hyperbole and inversions are good tools to debunk an argument.

[Deleted]

I went through all guilds on wow progress checking how many was at each progress stage. For example some guilds are 6/13HC are ranked higher than guilds at 8/13HC because they killed the first 6 in HC in a row. So I went through and check them all.

Some of them that were 1/13 HC killed other bosses than jin'rokh yes.

These numbers are 1 week old now though.

So generally speaking you can't say what bosses are the real roadblocks in heroic. You are listing how many guilds fail to move from 4 heroic bosses down to 5 heroic bosses down.
The only part of the spectrum where your logic might work is at the very end.

[Deleted]

It's really unbelievable how terribly high guilds set their benchmark for raiding.

They want full Normal ToT gear when the best you can get is in LFR
They want almost as much detail from your app as a bank statement and criminal background check combined
They consider any experience outside of ToT worthless
They don't understand that players can skip content.

And if you even get into one of these guilds:
They do not allow your life to ever get in the way of the game, ever,
They do not allow you any days off,
They expect all your non-raiding free time to be on EJ/AJ/etc. learning about everything in the game.

Recruiters, in the current state wow is, are just power tripping. It's a nightmare.

As a person that has been recruiter for multiple guilds in the past years.

Not at all. We expect our recruits to have about 510~ item level. Even brought in people that were 480 ilvl though. It is easier to gear someone up than to skill someone up. Rather take a good player with bad gear than a bad player with good gear.

Looking at an application, the main things you want to know is that the person is mature, have a job/school that allows for raiding, if he cant join for 50% of the raids then what is the point in bringing him. You want to know that persones previous guilds why he left them. You do not want a player that leaves guilds after 2 weeks. Basically you want to know what kind of person that person is, does he fit into our guild both socially and in terms of raiding.

Any experience that is not current content is in my eyes worthless. We often invited people we no experience in current/previous tier but that had experience in WotLK/Cata. But then we of course check if that experience was done at an appropriate timeline. (no, killing LK HC after the cata patch was released in WotLK is not experience).
Also, someone that have cleared a lot of T14 heroics I would consider higher than someone that cleared T15 normals simply because that player show a desire for raiding (prioritising T14 over ToT LFR). That person displays a mindset that is much approved for.

As a guild with a tight schedule, you expect your raiders to show up. If they can not show up, you expect them to tell you so beforehand. As long as they can tell in advance "Hey, I cant come to the raid on sunday", it is fine. Just as long as it does not happen every raid. Also of course the reason for it. Some reasons are better than others.

You do not expect people to spend all time reading up on their class. You expect people to know their class. That should not take several hours per day reading up on your class.

Most of all, you expect people to just be nice socially, have a desire for raiding, not get pissed from wiping and have a basic brain with common sense.

[Shahad]

Oh I am. Hyperbole and inversions are good tools to debunk an argument.

But now he's going to respond to YOUR hyperboles and it's going to start a whole other debate that isn't even really relevant to the gap between LFR and Normal mode.

EDIT: Yep, I called it.