How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[Gajzla]

Hey Hey, sorry if someone has suggested this already, but i would love to see a on the fly nerf to normals chosen by the raid leader.

I can see it being like the dragon soul 5% a week nerf, only you can chose to go right to 30% if you want to at the cost of gear ilvl (say 4 ilvl's for each 5% you nerf the content) Whats good about this, epically in ToT, is it allows you to overcome bosses that might otherwise stop you in your tracks.
You could for example kill the first boss on normal, the next on a 30% nerf and the one after that on a 10% depending on how you feel, it would also give normal raiders who don't normally use this system a way to "skip" a boss so they can try and progress on to the next.

As a 10 man normal raider i like this idea, or some of the others more than putting 10 mans back to how they where in WotLK.

[Libertarian]

The obvious answer is to change the gap to 13 item levels instead of 20. Simple as that. Also, as a hardcore raider I don't really see why the fights have to be so hard for casuals. They're obviously not meant for people like me, we do heroic.

[Varyk]

Get better rather than waiting for blizz to hand hold? I mean I'm sorry if that offends anyone but if you can't even complete normal modes maybe gaming isn't for you. You're not entitled to clear an entire raid just because you pay to play wow.

One small thing they could do is give 2/5 Battle rezzes in normal instead of 1/3 (keep it the same in heroic), not sure that would be that effective since if people are dying on a boss that much whatever "check" is still unlikely to be met (whether it's healing/add control/dps)

[Demeia]

I've read this whole thread and I havnt seen anything that really broaches the main problem... tone down the ramp up dificulty of the first 3 bosses of the tier... Horridon and Council are killing guilds with slightly less organisation/ skilled players... maybe blizzard got the boss order wrong?
if guilds had 3 slightly easier bosses to farm gear from instead of brick walling on Horridon and Council.. none of these posts would even be here.

Our raid actually found Totos to be terribly difficult and is completely baffled by Dorumu. We're now on our third berserk wipe (it's a life drain issue, of course, but why they had such a relatively tight timer baffles me). With 100+ wipes on three normal bosses, I'm getting fairly frustrated and burned out. This despite the fact that I actually like playing my rogue in raids.

What I'm saying is that the pain basically continues. Dorumu is a good example of what's wrong: there are so many places where you just die and one death pretty much ends the fight.

I'll say this: they should strongly consider changing the number of battle-rezes available in normal. Heroic, of course, should stay the same. That is one very easy idea that would make normal modes easier on groups. Bringing people back with higher resources in normal is also a thought.

The have violated a bunch of "here's what you don't do on normal" rules this expansion: very tight timers, fights that demand all players learn vehicle mechanics (I'm thinking Ambershaper), lots of one-shot mechanics (Dorumu has a knockback that eliminates any chance of b-rez, the maze, the eye-beam, running the beams past the objects, and I'm probably forgetting more). I cannot believe that an encounter designer thought that a complex add fight like Horridon wouldn't be a problem. I thought it was a problem the minute I read it; it was worse in reality. And then to follow it up with a council fight? /Facepalm.

[Varyk]

The obvious answer is to change the gap to 13 item levels instead of 20.

That suggest it's a gear issue when it clearly isn't.

It's an issue most average/bad players have, believing gear is the solution rather than actually learning how to play better.

How was my guild able to clear MSV in all blues when there are people who still can't do it in ToT LFR gear? We're not even super elite (76th US), we raid 3 days a week like most casual guilds.

[Libertarian]

That suggest it's a gear issue when it clearly isn't.

And more people kill MSV bosses now, more than ever because of the nerf and better gear. Better gear helps a lot.

[RickJamesLich]

All I know is the lead encounter designer has said they want to offer something to the people not currently being served and I would much rather them make a different difficulty then mess with normal. I like normals current difficulty.

I think the thing is, a second easy mode probably wouldn't help the problem, because if it requires a lack or coordination or learning the fight, people would end up bored with it like they do with LFR. Just look at 5 mans, they overnerfed them into the ground and now nobody wants to do them - plus doing the same 12 bosses twice would end up burning anyone out.

As for the social aspect of raiding, you can just do that in LFR, get some buddies, hop on vent, yada yada yada, you know the drill.

I think the real issue here is that some people want "challenging" content but dont' like it if they wipe on it at the same time to be honest lol.

[Vargur]

I think the thing is, a second easy mode probably wouldn't help the problem, because if it requires a lack or coordination or learning the fight, people would end up bored with it like they do with LFR. Just look at 5 mans, they overnerfed them into the ground and now nobody wants to do them - plus doing the same 12 bosses twice would end up burning anyone out.

As for the social aspect of raiding, you can just do that in LFR, get some buddies, hop on vent, yada yada yada, you know the drill.

I think the real issue here is that some people want "challenging" content but dont' like it if they wipe on it at the same time to be honest lol.

I'm pretty sure nobody wanted to do Grim Batol either, BECAUSE it was hard.

[Deleted]

Why would you have different versions of LFR? Just:

LFR
Easy (10 or 25man, or hell, maybe just 10 man on easy mode)
Normals (10 or 25)
Heroic (10 or 25)

I would like that, but problem is people still think normal = avarage, and they think they are better then they trully are, and wouldn't want to run easy. Constant whine for nerfs would continue .

[Bombino]

I think 10m easier than 25m and drops lower ilvl loot would yield a lot of lost subscriptions. There are now a lot of hardcore 10 man guilds who would then be "forced" to go back to 25 man raiding, pretty bad to go back to that design.

I think adding an "easier" difficulty level might not be a bad thing except it would add even more grinding required while gearing up. Maybe add this and ditch some of the other grinds currently required aka dailies/rep (I'm sure that would piss some people off, but not me, so just my opinion).

[Zydas]

If i had my way this how i would do it. first off LFR would be available in both 10 and 25 and you have to queue as a group like HC scenarios in 5.3, and you can also tune LFR to be a bit more challenging since its an organized group(think 25%-30% nerf normal DS in difficulty). so you can queue as a 25m, 10m or a 5m (to get paired with another 5m and make a 10m LFR run). These groups can be cross realm use the current loot system by default but it can be changed to 2/6 drops for the raid size by the raid leader or something. This will increase community interaction and get pugs going again, while also actually introducing players to organized raiding not the chaotic clusterfuck that LFR is now. as for 10/25 for normal and HC have 25m drop upgraded gear by 6 ilvls (thunderforged) and make 10m gear have no upgrades. 10m players can upgrade their gear for 750 valor. and separate achievements for 10m and 25m. (can still have shared lockout) it gives 25m a little something extra while not taking aything away from 10m (other than they have to farm valor more than 25m raiders do to make up for logistics). this way 10m is still challenging and its has its progression races and so does 25m. I would also have 25m have different mechanics instead of just like 10m except 5 people have to do it insetad of 3(stone guard a perfect example of how a fight can be tuned differently but not neccesarily equal on 10m and 25m). Hopefully this will end 10 vs 25 debates since 25m and 10m raid groups wont be competeing. they can get the same gear and have the same relative challenge for their raid size, and LFR is a good introduction to organized raiding.

[HeedmySpeed]

It's a problem with convenience. Players want convenience of a raid without any of the characteristics of what makes a raid a raid.

It seems Blizzard has described this "gap" of players who want the necessity of group coordination but also don't want to perform at their classes potential so they can bring friends.

So what kind of skill are we talking about here? It's so arbitrary and these two ideas conflict each other. Coordination is called upon when something is difficult. Being able to afford to bring along a bad player calls for reduced difficulty which doesn't just affect the "friends" roll it affects the roll of the entire raid.

[Halifax]

I would like that, but problem is people still think normal = avarage, and they think they are better then they trully are, and wouldn't want to run easy. Constant whine for nerfs would continue .

While that is probably true, the complaints would probably come from a very small majority. Those of us good enough for Normal/Heroic wouldn't care (or at least shouldn't care, I'm sure some elitist jackoffs would have a problem with it somehow) about easy existing.

And as for those that "Easy" would be targeted for - I know a lot of these players, they are the B team in my guild that can't kill Horridon. Have some other friends in a similar situation. They aren't looking for a high level challenge. They are looking for content that they can do with their friends/family. Normal is too hard for them, and honestly LFR wouldn't be terrible, except that they have to deal with the other people in LFR, who routinely ruin the experience.

Going back to the previous tier could be a solution, but that gets boring fast. The B team in my guild was stuck on Garalon in 5.1, and then cleared all of Tier 14 the first week of 5.2 when it got nerfed. So they can do Tier 14 with their eyes closed, but can't even come close to making a good attempt on Horridon. There needs to be something between "brain dead easy" and "untouchable" for groups at that kind of skill level.

The people I'm talking about are fully aware that they are bad at the game, and don't care that they're bad. They just want to play it, and play it with people they know, and right now the game doesn't facilitate that. It would help stop the bleeding subs from casual/bad players, and it SHOULD have no effect on normal/heroic players unless they're just assholes who think the content everyone pays for should only be for them.

Being a heroic raider myself, I don't give a shit what lesser skilled guilds are doing, it doesn't affect me.

[Deleted]

Fine as it is.

[artem123]

keep as is, content already gets / will get nerfed via ilvl upgrades

[Raugnaut]

I'm thinking that this "unannounced feature" will be something like Openraid/Oqueue except its base-blizz UI. Go in, start up a raid, advertise for it, without having to leave WoW. Kinda like the old LFR feature back in wrath, except A) More upfront in the UI, instead of hidden away, and B) Cross-realm, all the realms.

[Deleted]

I never experience normal easier than they are right now. Dumbing them down even futher would be devastating. No boss in normal tot takes more than 10-15 tries to defeat. If there has to any feel of accomplishment attached to normal modes they should leave them as they are-

[Deleted]

There is only a skill gap in between those really. Tbh they overtuned normal this time around (which I personally liked) but NM are easy. Maybe what "could" make the NM mofe easier for those who have some trouble would be to be less linear : this way if you struggle on a boss, don't have the comp, availiable healers that night and so on (which is a real problem in 10s) you could chose what path to go and skil 'harder' bosses. Might help out easy modes.

[hughy]

IMO the raids are fine as they are. You don't need that much gear to start progressing through ToT especially if you valor cap every week.
The only options I sort of agree with are the gradual nerfs over time. It seemed to work well in dragon soul by letting farm bosses get farmed faster and gives a small boost to get groups over their current wall.
I don't like making 10M and 25M not equal. My realm is small pop and its very difficult to put together 25 people with the same schedule without having 1/4 of the raid be complete carries.
I wouldn't mind easy mode that much if it shared a lockout with normal modes. If it didn't share a lockout like LFR it would feel too mandatory.

[isadorr]

All I know is the lead encounter designer has said they want to offer something to the people not currently being served and I would much rather them make a different difficulty then mess with normal. I like normals current difficulty.

Funny they are pushing content faster because they know progression guilds are downing content or almost done with it. Seems to me they are pushing raids out faster so people have more content and to me that isnt catering to the casuals like some are insiuating.