How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[Deleted]

Still better than average. Facts remain.

Actually it does not unless you take out all the inactive guilds and non-raiding guilds from the stats.

So your argument is still 100% mute.

[Chirri]

normal raids used to be a place you could wander through with a couple of buddies without every single one of you needing to do homework and have a PHD in wowology. lets just go back to that.

I dunno. I've been raiding with the same basic group of people for ... 4 expansions? The slackers today are the same people who slacked back then. The number crunching theory crafters are still geeking out of the numbers. It doesn't really feel, to me, like raids are asking a whole lot more than they used to. Granted, my guild isn't very far through ToT but we just plain haven't been pushing very hard this expansion. In terms of wipes for a successful first kill, I'd say we're not a whole lot worse or better off than we used to be. We're also older and a little slower than we used to be.

Those of us who could read over a boss strat and have it down, still have that ability. Those of us who can read over a boss strat but most of it won't sink in until we experience, still need those first few wipes to be on the same page. Those of us who never read a boss strat because we don't like spoilers - we still don't read boss strats ahead of time, and we still catch up with the same speed.

The main difference it seems like I hear is, those guilds that "can't keep up" simply aren't willing to "waste their time" wiping so that everyone can finally be on the same page. The players have the same skills and handicaps as others (on an average basis), but don't want to give everyone they raid with the opportunity to work out their individual kinks and mistakes. Maybe they don't understand the hours that go into the high end guilds' efforts as they seem to mow through content, I dunno.

TL: DR Normal raids are still a place you can wander through with buddies, without needing tons of research ahead of time on the part of everyone involved. The only real difference I can imagine is that in previous expansions, you learned more of your class(es) while leveling up, so the final learning curve may not have been as steep once you hit end game.

[Deleted]

Actually it does not unless you take out all the inactive guilds and non-raiding guilds from the stats.

So your argument is still 100% mute.

My argument doesn't have anything to do with me or my guild.

It remains. It would remain if I stopped playing.

now, if you are quite done trying to dismiss the argument via ad hominem, please thrill me with your intelligence and acumen on the actual debate at hand.

if you can, of course.

[Deleted]

<snip> Don't post Meme's. (Sonnillon)

ITT: Stubborn Donkey behind a keyboard.

[Deleted]

My argument doesn't have anything to do with me or my guild.

It remains. It would remain if I stopped playing.

now, if you are quite done trying to dismiss the argument via ad hominem, please thrill me with your intelligence and acumen on the actual debate at hand.

if you can, of course.

Ehr. Wtf? Are you for real?

What I said had nothing to do with you or your guild. You are just attempting to derail other peoples arguments when you realise you are wrong. You can stop backpeddling now.


Your argument: 9/12 is better than average.

My counterargument: Those stats include a lot of inactive guilds, guilds that disbanded, guilds that realm transfered, non-raiding guilds, people going into pugs getting kills. So in reality 9/12 is not above average amongst actual raiding guilds.

Your response: Potato.

Did I miss something here?

[Deleted]

I dunno. I've been raiding with the same basic group of people for ... 4 expansions? The slackers today are the same people who slacked back then. The number crunching theory crafters are still geeking out of the numbers. It doesn't really feel, to me, like raids are asking a whole lot more than they used to. Granted, my guild isn't very far through ToT but we just plain haven't been pushing very hard this expansion. In terms of wipes for a successful first kill, I'd say we're not a whole lot worse or better off than we used to be. We're also older and a little slower than we used to be.

Those of us who could read over a boss strat and have it down, still have that ability. Those of us who can read over a boss strat but most of it won't sink in until we experience, still need those first few wipes to be on the same page. Those of us who never read a boss strat because we don't like spoilers - we still don't read boss strats ahead of time, and we still catch up with the same speed.

The main difference it seems like I hear is, those guilds that "can't keep up" simply aren't willing to "waste their time" wiping so that everyone can finally be on the same page. The players have the same skills and handicaps as others (on an average basis), but don't want to give everyone they raid with the opportunity to work out their individual kinks and mistakes. Maybe they don't understand the hours that go into the high end guilds' efforts as they seem to mow through content, I dunno.

TL: DR Normal raids are still a place you can wander through with buddies, without needing tons of research ahead of time on the part of everyone involved. The only real difference I can imagine is that in previous expansions, you learned more of your class(es) while leveling up, so the final learning curve may not have been as steep once you hit end game.

Yeah, i'm also playing with largely the same crew as previously. Core has been together for years. I can see that it's the learning to play bit that's missing atm.

In TBC we used to take people to SH to see what they could do. Now they have to learn in the raids themselves. Maybe it's that?

I dunno I'm just looking at the numbers. i.e. raid participation has dropped off a cliff.

[Deleted]

ITT: Stubborn Donkey behind a keyboard.

Made me laugh!

Got me thinking of this

<snip>

Infracted; Don't post MEMEs. (Sonnillon)

[celinamuna]

Absiolutely nothing stops us queueing and in fact we have done so. however, it's not even vaguely challenging content, which pitches us in with 15 other random people (10 of whom are usually asshats.)

Sounds like only thing is needed is 10 man lfr and we'll be done with this problem.

Also, "it's not even vaguely challenging content". That's funny, i remember tons of bitching /moaning on forums about quite a few LFR fights (hello durumu , lei-shen, even garalon) which would prove otherwise. Plus again, we want this be fun for AVERAGE RAIDER (which you are so far ahead, so what's easy for you, is hard for them).

We are quite happy in normal modes as they currently are though if that helps.

once again, not talking about my gaming experience, so stop trying to dismiss what I am saying by fixing my gaming experience.

Well you seem to be the one complaining about it.
And if you're fine with normal modes, what's the problem ?

[Deleted]

Ehr. Wtf? Are you for real?

hmm ye?

What I said had nothing to do with you or your guild. You are just attempting to derail other peoples arguments when you realise you are wrong. You can stop backpeddling now.


Your argument: 9/12 is better than average.

And it is.

My counterargument: Those stats include a lot of inactive guilds, guilds that disbanded, guilds that realm transfered, non-raiding guilds, people going into pugs getting kills. So in reality 9/12 is not above average amongst actual raiding guilds.

Your response: Potato.

Did I miss something here?

Yes, the bit where I said I wasn't arsed. 9/12 is better than average. You want to redefine average using all kinds of stuff that means 9/12 isn't average any longer.

I don't care, didn't do that and it's not relevent anyway. 9/12 is better than average. It just is. Why it is better than average i didn't go itno and don't care about.

now, back to the actual debate at hand - how about you engage in it rather than wander off up your own bottom?

Currently (according to data and blizzard) there is a gap between LFR and normal mode. What do you propose to fix it?

[Deleted]

Geez. How can the data sample not be relevant?

It is like having an election and candidate A won over candidate B by 51% to 49%.

"Yeah, but 40% of candidate A's votes came from people who are dead? How can they vote when they are dead? Aswell over 20% of his votes came from the same people voting multiple times. I smell a rigged election!"

"Doesnt matter had most votes"

If something is rank 15000 out of 40000 you cant say that it is 'better than average' if in reality it is rank 14000 out of 20000.



@ "Currently (according to data and blizzard) there is a gap between LFR and normal mode. What do you propose to fix it?"

If we remove LFR there is no gap anymore.

[Dakara]

Haven't raided since Cata, but here's my opinion.

Back in Vanilla/TBC, raid content needed to be "hard" because that's all there was for us. With the introduction of "Heroic" mode, the need for normal mode to be challenging ceased to exist. People who want "Challenge" can get it in Heroic raid content, people who just want to casually raid with a pre-made group (guild/friends) can raid normal modes, and those who just want to raid on their terms, and not be forced to talk to anyone (aka me these days) have LFR.

What's always annoyed me (more so when I raiding then now) is you get these mouth breathers coming onto the forums and having a big cry that "WOW's too easy". Meanwhile, only Top 100 guilds have actually cleared all the content, and they're still in normal mode "remembering back in the day" when it would take you several weeks to down a new boss. Newsflash, get out of normal modes if you're "too skilled for WOW" and actually play the content that was designed to make WOW "Not easy".

Bit of a rant, but the fact is, the only people who want Normal modes to be challenging are special snowflakes who can't do Heroic content and want to feel special about normal raiding. There is no reason for Normal mode to be so challenging that your 'average' guild can't clear it with minimal effort at a certain ilvl, or "advanced" guilds clearing it with previous Tier gear.

[celinamuna]

Haven't raided since Cata, but here's my opinion.

Back in Vanilla/TBC, raid content needed to be "hard" because that's all there was for us. With the introduction of "Heroic" mode, the need for normal mode to be challenging ceased to exist. People who want "Challenge" can get it in Heroic raid content, people who just want to casually raid with a pre-made group (guild/friends) can raid normal modes, and those who just want to raid on their terms, and not be forced to talk to anyone (aka me these days) have LFR.

What's always annoyed me (more so when I raiding then now) is you get these mouth breathers coming onto the forums and having a big cry that "WOW's too easy". Meanwhile, only Top 100 guilds have actually cleared all the content, and they're still in normal mode "remembering back in the day" when it would take you several weeks to down a new boss. Newsflash, get out of normal modes if you're "too skilled for WOW" and actually play the content that was designed to make WOW "Not easy".

Bit of a rant, but the fact is, the only people who want Normal modes to be challenging are special snowflakes who can't do Heroic content and want to feel special about normal raiding. There is no reason for Normal mode to be so challenging that your 'average' guild can't clear it with minimal effort at a certain ilvl, or "advanced" guilds clearing it with previous Tier gear.

Newsflash back in BC i raided with "average" raiders, fairly fresh. Now when i look up all of those raiders they're in heroics. What was average raider back then is heroic raider now (except for the people who were getting carried).

[Deleted]

Newsflash back in BC i raided with "average" raiders, fairly fresh. Now when i look up all of those raiders they're in heroics. What was average raider back then is heroic raider now (except for the people who were getting carried).

Erm that's what he said.

And then added given that's the case there is no reason for normal mode to be so tricky....

Everyone who gives a toss about difficulty is doing heroics. having normal modes where 75% of people who try them fail is pointless. lol

[Khetagurov]

Newsflash back in BC i raided with "average" raiders, fairly fresh. Now when i look up all of those raiders they're in heroics. What was average raider back then is heroic raider now (except for the people who were getting carried).

of course, there's no possible way that players may have improved in the 4-5 years since TBC...... right?

[Dakara]

Newsflash back in BC i raided with "average" raiders, fairly fresh. Now when i look up all of those raiders they're in heroics. What was average raider back then is heroic raider now (except for the people who were getting carried).

Ummm... exactly my point?

All the TBC/Vanilla raiders (those of us left, and still raiding) are raiding Heroic content. Thus today's normal modes don't need to provide the challenge, as all those looking for a challenge are in Heroics.

[Chirri]

Ummm... exactly my point?

All the TBC/Vanilla raiders (those of us left, and still raiding) are raiding Heroic content. Thus today's normal modes don't need to provide the challenge, as all those looking for a challenge are in Heroics.

Oh, I don't know. I can't be in the ONLY guild that's content with Normals, and the gaps between it both LFR and Heroic.

[celinamuna]

Ummm... exactly my point?

All the TBC/Vanilla raiders (those of us left, and still raiding) are raiding Heroic content. Thus today's normal modes don't need to provide the challenge, as all those looking for a challenge are in Heroics.

No, what everyone is saying is "raids got harder", they didn't. They got EASIER. The problem is that back then raids were a PRIVILEGE, now everyone assumes it as a RIGHT. The reason that people are doing better is because now people who i wouldn't let into our heroic MgT group is trying to get into raid.
And there is no reason to suddenly nerf raids to accommodate for that.

[Osmeric]

No, what everyone is saying is "raids got harder", they didn't. They got EASIER. The problem is that back then raids were a PRIVILEGE, now everyone assumes it as a RIGHT.

Nah, that's the wrong way to look at it.

Back then, people were willing to keep playing if they were excluded. Now, not so much.

It's not a matter of rights. It's a matter of raw consumer power.

[Deleted]

This thread is about "how does a company deal with business with given numbers?" Numbers (just to demo. - fiction numbers): t7 100000 raiders mass subs mass growth. t15 20000 raiders less subs heavy decline. SO! If you don't even have a WoW account what do you think would you do to get some money? YES! You would say "eh t7 was the better way!". "Easyroflfaceroll? Epics for Bob? Posers with 10 APM who callout everyone with less dropluck noob? That the fuck are you talking about? I don't even words like "epics" "faceroll" "dropluck" "MMORPG" BUT I can tell you this is the better way BECAUSE many more people are fucking paying money for the product."

Nobody cares about skill! Nobody wants to know how you can do things! Nobody plays the game "because he can" people play it because they WANT and if so many more people wanted to play t7-t10 + t13 rather than t11-15-t13 then this is the first step as a business to analyze what you want to do for the future. And no! they will not care that people who actually play wow say about "possibilities" and all their strange obsessions with vanity and whatnot. They will look at the numbers, then start looking how the game was designed at that time and figure something out, many players in this thread did in like 5seconds: There is a big chance that difficulty actually is a variable that can manipulate sub numbers! DOING! GREAT! Boss we have it, no worries we will make the cow healthy again! There might be completely different reasons yes BUT it's actually the most valid point and if you are that blizzard dev "how would you deal with it?" to please that guy that has no clue about WoW but can fire you any time? Right! You might consider changing the difficulty! And now this thread on mmo-champion has some nice people already talking about it.

So please stop this talk about l2p and what not. This isn't about feelings this is about what to do after realizing that more people play raids like t7-t10+t13 than raids like t14-15. And after concluding the difficulty is the main factor for it. Is it hard to believe that t7-Naxx was a better raid then the newer ones? YES! It hurts so much! I mean many of us play this game so long and we learned so much about it. It's impossible for us to understand how Bob actually is not unique with his absurd mindset and playstyle but one of many who even can make the big blizzard boss wave to his wow devs. The day has arrived brothers! We might end up puging hcs again soon!

So I hope I have it covered. Now: What will the poor blizzard dev do to get bob and his friends back into the game? What would affect us and how would it effect us? How far do they try to push Bob into our realm? Will they even create another plane so that Bob does not just pop up in our group? What could it mean for Guilds?

nerf normal mode (option 2): Oh no! This would have a big impact on everyone for... one week I guess... I would not mind giving up on normal mode, I can pug HCs (with pug I mean not people like bob and his huge family!!!!! I still doubt they exist!1111"). I don't think Bob who failed on actual normal modes will even dare to try hcs. If he does he will fail. So we simply have to set our lookout to hc achievements... not so big I guess. In the first weeks maybe bit of a problem but I don't think Bob who cannot do anything at the moment will rocketjump new content in the first week and then app to us, if so then well, we should complain after having 100 apps every week who get exchanged after just one try. Or we just bait them out with Ui-Screens, WoL logs and oh we already do that. Good thing Bob has no clue about these things! Our guild would not be effected since we don't allow family and friends into the guild. Guess in other guilds those people would dare do LFM in guildchat more... But well not my problem olol... noobs for inviting them in the first place!!111.

Just to make a demo how this discussion with valid arguments could look like :/ Many of you guys really have to differ between how you feel about something and how to deal with some cause-effect stuff in terms of arguing about it

[Deleted]

-snip-

Yet a majority of the player base thinks that T8 was the best raid ever, and that was far harder than current raids. By that logic shouldnt we make raids harder?

The raiding has been on a constant decline, however the biggest decline happened between T13 to T15. What happened here? Yes, the introduction of LFR. Would it not be quite logical to draw the conclusion that LFR is the reason for raid participation dropping rather than normal mode difficulty? People are spending time in LFR instead of looking for raiding teams, naturally lowering raiding participation.

Also, subscribers have dropped. The raid participation will ofc drop as subscribers drop.