View Poll Results: How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

Voters
757. This poll is closed
  • 10m easier then 25m, drops lower ilvl loot.

    305 40.29%
  • Nerf normal modes (Like Dragonsoul)

    109 14.40%
  • Gradually increasing debuff that nerfs the raid over time (like Dragonsoul)

    188 24.83%
  • An "Easy" difficulty that is harder then LFR, but easier then Normal.

    155 20.48%
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  1. #1021
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    If everyone is on an equal footing and 75% of the people trying normal mode fail, then there is something wrong with normal mode, not the people.
    Source of information?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 07:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The game has heroic mode for those who want a challenge. No need to make normal mode a complete ballache.

    Pretty simple.
    So, we got LFR that is barely even counts as content. We got T14 that is easy. We got normals that require medium effort and we get heroic for a challenge. Why remove the medium effort mode? Makes no sense.

  2. #1022
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    it's called common sense.


    They never were. In old wow this meant they never raided. In new wow, they get to do LFR, previously on new wow they got to do normal modes (in ICC and DS.)


    Wotlk was accessible, cata was not (until they lost millions of subs and nerfed FL and then released the crowd pleasing DS.


    You might have done that, next to no one else did. The argument here is that people who want a mode of content that they can do in a group without becoming either a sociopath guild hopper or an aspergers sufferer level theory crafter should be in place.
    I don't see any common sense in any of your posts. And stop talking about this old/new WoW, to me we're in World of Warcraft: Mists of Pandaria, not 'new' WoW. Are you just so thick headed that you can't see why LFR is bad for new subscribers to the game? A team of game developers shouldn't be making the game easier and easier for players who don't have the motivation to teach themselves to become any better.
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  3. #1023
    Quote Originally Posted by Melkandor View Post
    But the content is there with LFR. Just scaled-down numbers and gear drops, but the content is still there to see. And if players really want to see Normal Mode content, then maybe they should step up their own game instead of complaining that they can't kill things because their skill level is low.
    How many gd times must it be stated LFR IS NOT A VIABLE OPTION for close knit 10M average guilds??

    Stop bringing this bullshit up. It has already been argued and it is not what we are talking about.

  4. #1024
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The game has heroic mode for those who want a challenge. No need to make normal mode a complete ballache.

    Pretty simple.
    And LFR is made for those who don't want any sort of difficulty at all. Normal is only a ballache if you refuse to learn to play better.

    Pretty simple.
    I am not Voting Trump because I support him, its about keeping a Career Criminal out of office that mishandles classified information.
    Beta males can cry on how I will not vote for their brood mother.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    Have you even considered the perspective of the 'violent' muslims?

  5. #1025
    Quote Originally Posted by Melkandor View Post
    That is such a ridiculous statement. What are you spewing out onto this forum?
    There is something wrong with new raiders nowadays. They are not being taught to try their hardest and perform to their maximum capabilities. Because Blizzard made Cata and WotLK easy mode for raiders like you, now a lot of the raiders are just terrible players who can barely go 2/12 in ToT, let alone clear any heroic modes. When I joined this game back in TBC, I always thought to myself how if I kept pushing myself to my limits on my character I can go raid BT and other high end raids. In TBC, all I ended up clearing was Karazhan. In WotLK, I cleared a lot of the content, including 4/5 H ToGC on 25m, and 11/12 H ICC 25m. And wanna know why? Because back when I joined, there wasn't any of this LF-whatever BS that plagues the community. If you wanted to get anywhere, you had to work for it. But now Blizzard shot themselves in the foot by targeting the casual demographic, because it causes new players to stay bad, and encourages people not to learn from their mistakes if they're gonna get their shiny pixels at the end of the day no matter how terrible they are.
    Not everyone wants to play at harder difficulties. Go google "Conan Aboslution review" and you can see the audience for easy difficulty. Some people are fine not improving and just overpower the boss with enough gears. They are happy just to hangout with guildies and kill some bosses like the original ICC10. I really don't understand why this desire is so difficult to understand.

    "Just quit, you are terrible" is a valid way to handle the situation but I personally think that's a pretty terrible way to make wow better.
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  6. #1026
    Quote Originally Posted by Arothand View Post
    How many gd times must it be stated LFR IS NOT A VIABLE OPTION for close knit 10M average guilds??

    Stop bringing this bullshit up. It has already been argued and it is not what we are talking about.
    For close knit 10m guilds they can try to progress on bosses in Normal, but LFR is still there to see the content.

    Point you were trying to make?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 12:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by wow2011 View Post
    "Just quit, you are terrible" is a valid way to handle the situation but I personally think that's a pretty terrible way to make wow better.
    If people keep telling others to just quit, then the game won't become any better. It'll become progressively worse over time.
    I am not Voting Trump because I support him, its about keeping a Career Criminal out of office that mishandles classified information.
    Beta males can cry on how I will not vote for their brood mother.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    Have you even considered the perspective of the 'violent' muslims?

  7. #1027
    Quote Originally Posted by Melkandor View Post
    But the content is there with LFR. Just scaled-down numbers and gear drops, but the content is still there to see. And if players really want to see Normal Mode content, then maybe they should step up their own game instead of complaining that they can't kill things because their skill level is low.
    Please don't try to insinuate LFR is anywhere near actual raiding content. The only thing LFR is good for is seeing the content, nothing more. And you have to put up with a toxic atmosphere to do it too.

    Also, it's not about anyone raider being bad, it's about entire guilds who don't discriminate against skill that are out of content to run while they could previously run 10-man Normals in Wrath.

  8. #1028
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Source of information?
    The word normal.
    So, we got LFR that is barely even counts as content. We got T14 that is easy. We got normals that require medium effort and we get heroic for a challenge. Why remove the medium effort mode? Makes no sense.
    T14 isn't easy, it's still difficult.

    Why not remove the hard mode (which serves very few people) and put in more lower difficulties (which will server many more) ?

  9. #1029
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    Please don't try to insinuate LFR is anywhere near actual raiding content. The only thing LFR is good for is seeing the content, nothing more. And you have to put up with a toxic atmosphere to do it too.

    Also, it's not about anyone raider being bad, it's about entire guilds who don't discriminate against skill that are out of content to run while they could previously run 10-man Normals in Wrath.
    That's exactly what I stated though, that LFR is only there to see the content.
    Then maybe we need to go back to the Wrath model of raiding, it seemed to be the pinnacle of raiding in World of Warcraft history. Everybody and there mom seemed to be raiding at least something back then, whether it be 10m ToC all the way to H ICC.
    I am not Voting Trump because I support him, its about keeping a Career Criminal out of office that mishandles classified information.
    Beta males can cry on how I will not vote for their brood mother.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinra1 View Post
    Have you even considered the perspective of the 'violent' muslims?

  10. #1030
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The word normal.


    T14 isn't easy, it's still difficult.
    So no source of information, only your own opinion. Okay so can call that bullshit then.

    T14 isnt easy? Yeah... it is very hard... I agree... We almost could not 5 man MSV.

  11. #1031
    Quote Originally Posted by Melkandor View Post
    That's exactly what I stated though, that LFR is only there to see the content.
    Then maybe we need to go back to the Wrath model of raiding, it seemed to be the pinnacle of raiding in World of Warcraft history. Everybody and there mom seemed to be raiding at least something back then, whether it be 10m ToC all the way to H ICC.
    The problem with going back to that model is that there is such a thing as hardcore 10-man now. Forcing them to somehow get enough people to go 25 isn't fair.

  12. #1032
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Melkandor View Post
    That's exactly what I stated though, that LFR is only there to see the content.
    Then maybe we need to go back to the Wrath model of raiding, it seemed to be the pinnacle of raiding in World of Warcraft history. Everybody and there mom seemed to be raiding at least something back then, whether it be 10m ToC all the way to H ICC.
    That's because of the tuning of normal modes = i.e. they were doable with pugs, using only a few lines of text, no voip etc.

    As other people have pointed out, on wows current trajectory there will be method doing heroics and everyone else in LFR.

  13. #1033
    Quote Originally Posted by mistahwilshire View Post
    Like Hexz touched on, raiding T14 is the difficulty between LFR and Normal T15, as well as the bridge for the gear gap. I know of far too many friends and family guilds that failed in T14 at Normal Garalon and never got past that and then tried immediately progressing in to ToT normals in their mostly normal MSV gear. While it's possible to down Normal ToT in that gear, they clearly aren't the most skilled of raid groups if they got stuck on normal Garalon but the fact remains that they don't want to go back to that content even though it's now the desired difficulty they seek.

    Farming Normal/Heroic HoF and ToES for a couple weeks will do WONDERS for the friends and family normal guilds out there getting their asses kicked in normal ToT. People just don't see that.

    Everyone kicked and screamed for TBC-like progression to come back and for the most part they got it. Now they're mad that they can't clear current content when they haven't even finished the previous tier. Just like all the people that were mad they were getting stomped in Black Temple when they had only killed 4 bosses in SSC and TK combined.
    You make an excellent point. Guilds seem more willing to bang their head on the blocking new boss than to return to the previous tier's heroics.

    Consider, though, that with limited time to raid, LFR gear is *almost* as good and is current tier. LFR can also be done whenever is convenient. So why take raid time to kill old heroics if their gear is only slightly better than LFR, which does not require raid time as a guild?

    I guess this is only a good strategy as a guild before LFR is fully released. For that month or so, continue to progress on old heroics until your ilvl lets you push through the early-blocking boss in the current tier.

    Then again, if you read my previous post in this forum, http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...7#post21162077, I would like to see early-blocking bosses removed altogether.

  14. #1034
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    So no source of information, only your own opinion. Okay so can call that bullshit then.
    nom, the word normal means average and average would mean average players could complete tiers within the timeframe they exist.
    T14 isnt easy? Yeah... it is very hard... I agree... We almost could not 5 man MSV.
    You are irrelevent.

  15. #1035
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Melkandor View Post
    For close knit 10m guilds they can try to progress on bosses in Normal, but LFR is still there to see the content.

    Point you were trying to make?

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 12:29 PM ----------



    If people keep telling others to just quit, then the game won't become any better. It'll become progressively worse over time.
    his point is probably that back in wrath, 10 man normal mode was significantly easier and still represented a challenge. Even though it was beer league.

    Besides 10 man normal mode was a social thing. LFR is well extremely anti-social.

    And generally 10 man normal mode was a better starting point for people to get into raiding than LFR is now a days. Than some moron got the idea to make 10 and 25 man share a lockout and off course 10 and 25 man schould get the same rewards--> same difficulty and that basicly killed the content for those 10 man guilds.

    And well one thing you can't say about t11 was that it was a new MC, karazhan or naxx v2.0. And to be honest t14 is not really some easy starter lets introduce new players to normal raiding raid^^

    What new raiders imo need is a raid of some difficulty, where they can learn the ropes and get a bloody nose if they fuck up. And LFR sucks for that it is just a loot pinata. At least in the old 10 man normal mode someone might take you under his wings and give you some pointers, new LFR world, I do not give a fuck about new players they are from other realms and we are gonna win anyway.

    Cata was not so bad in the beginning, but I would have to say that recruitment became a bitch after that change. New people would go to 10 man pugs and run away scared and never get probably introduced to raiding. Basicly the feeding chain has taken a blow after the change and LFR was just a terrible idea.

    Ask yourself what do you think was the better introduction to raiding 10 man normal mode raiding or LFR?

  16. #1036
    Its all about the ilevels of the epics now. First people were fine doing LFR to get epics but now they see that better gear drops in normal and feel that they should get this to. At the same time, people really dont want to improve theyre gamestyle. They want to continue like they did in LFR(join raid, attack boss, it dies, roll for loot).

    Some people here have said you need to be a maniac theorycrafter or spend hours upon hours reading up on your class and watch videos of boss fights. You really, really dont need to. To clear normal you just need to know wich buttons to click when(a OK rotation), spend 5 minutes checking what gems/enchants to go for, dont stand in bad stuff and be able to communicate with others on ventrilo/mumble.

    Believe me, if normal modes were nerfed to hell today and made it roflstomp easy for everyone, there would be threads like this on mmo-champion not long after saying "heroic mode is to hard for the average player" and so on.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 07:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    his point is probably that back in wrath, 10 man normal mode was significantly easier and still represented a challenge. Even though it was beer league.

    Besides 10 man normal mode was a social thing. LFR is well extremely anti-social.

    And generally 10 man normal mode was a better starting point for people to get into raiding than LFR is now a days. Than some moron got the idea to make 10 and 25 man share a lockout and off course 10 and 25 man schould get the same rewards--> same difficulty and that basicly killed the content for those 10 man guilds.

    And well one thing you can't say about t11 was that it was a new MC, karazhan or naxx v2.0. And to be honest t14 is not really some easy starter lets introduce new players to normal raiding raid^^

    What new raiders imo need is a raid of some difficulty, where they can learn the ropes and get a bloody nose if they fuck up. And LFR sucks for that it is just a loot pinata. At least in the old 10 man normal mode someone might take you under his wings and give you some pointers, new LFR world, I do not give a fuck about new players they are from other realms and we are gonna win anyway.

    Cata was not so bad in the beginning, but I would have to say that recruitment became a bitch after that change. New people would go to 10 man pugs and run away scared and never get probably introduced to raiding. Basicly the feeding chain has taken a blow after the change and LFR was just a terrible idea.

    Ask yourself what do you think was the better introduction to raiding 10 man normal mode raiding or LFR?
    I kind of agree with you. The shared lockout with 10/25 is making alot of problems here. At this point though, I think it would hurt alot of 10 man guilds if blizz were to revert this again and make them not share lockout. Suddenly alot of 10 man guilds must recruit new players for proper content(25) and not do faceroll 10 man.

    First mistake was to share lockout. Second mistake was introducing LFR.

    Maybe just do this.... Keep LFR and let it drop LFR loot. Make 10 man easy, let it drop LFR ilevel loot. Let 25 man drop higher item level gear.
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  17. #1037
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderNerò87 View Post
    Its all about the ilevels of the epics now. First people were fine doing LFR to get epics but now they see that better gear drops in normal and feel that they should get this to. At the same time, people really dont want to improve theyre gamestyle. They want to continue like they did in LFR(join raid, attack boss, it dies, roll for loot).

    Some people here have said you need to be a maniac theorycrafter or spend hours upon hours reading up on your class and watch videos of boss fights. You really, really dont need to. To clear normal you just need to know wich buttons to click when(a OK rotation), spend 5 minutes checking what gems/enchants to go for, dont stand in bad stuff and be able to communicate with others on ventrilo/mumble.

    Believe me, if normal modes were nerfed to hell today and made it roflstomp easy for everyone, there would be threads like this on mmo-champion not long after saying "heroic mode is to hard for the average player" and so on.
    Yes, but you can legitmately say that heroics are made for the top end of players, which you can't do with normal modes.

    Theres a big clue in the names of these things. Imagine making a suit that you claimed was for a normal person, but actually it would only fit someone 3 foot 6 tall. Any insistence that it was a normal suit most right thinking people would just laugh at. So it is with normal raids in wow. They clearly aren't for the average or normal player at all.

  18. #1038
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    FFB is not intended in anyway and no one could rationally justify it ever.
    The same way Scorch was and it was left untouched for a whole patch cycle? Get to 4 stacks of Arcane Charge, burn missiles, Scorch to generate charges, otherwise ABar, is now exactly the same but with FFB instead of Scorch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    Both ideas are essentially the same.
    Your idea did not imply a queuing system like LFD and LFR. Apologies.
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  19. #1039
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Yes, but you can legitmately say that heroics are made for the top end of players, which you can't do with normal modes.

    Theres a big clue in the names of these things. Imagine making a suit that you claimed was for a normal person, but actually it would only fit someone 3 foot 6 tall. Any insistence that it was a normal suit most right thinking people would just laugh at. So it is with normal raids in wow. They clearly aren't for the average or normal player at all.

    Dont you think it has something to do with the mentality of the players? Do most of the people in this game wish to be good or do they just want to suck? Or is the game doing such a bad job making sure players gets how to play his class and how mechanics work in this game?

    I remember "back in the wow days" that all the people I knew in the game understood they would have to improve themself and do what they could if they wanted to beat content. If you wanted to suck, thats fine but you would not be able to do everything.

    With LFR you are able to suck as much as you want. You can be a warrior who gems spirit, its ok, the boss will die anyway.

    Do people want to be bad, or are they just bad cause they cant figure out HOW to improve? Maybe they dont want to improve?
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  20. #1040
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Source of information?

    It used to be 25% for last tier, now only 28% of guilds are clearing ToT (7534/26171). That number should be around 13k (50% clear): as it stands, Ji-kun should be the end boss, not Lei Shen. ToT is currently two tiers rolled into one with only one tier of gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    So, we got LFR that is barely even counts as content. We got T14 that is easy. We got normals that require medium effort and we get heroic for a challenge. Why remove the medium effort mode? Makes no sense.
    Currently T14 isn't easy. Otherwise we'd see a greater than 28% clear rate.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 09:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    Ask yourself what do you think was the better introduction to raiding 10 man normal mode raiding or LFR?
    LFR, as it has effectively guaranteed high quality raids so long as millions of players see the content.
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