How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[Deleted]

Dont you think it has something to do with the mentality of the players? '

Yes, absolutely. Does it matter? Nope. Can blizzard change millions of peoples attitudes towards life? Nope.

Do most of the people in this game wish to be good or do they just want to suck? Or is the game doing such a bad job making sure players gets how to play his class and how mechanics work in this game?

Again, does it matter?

I remember "back in the wow days" that all the people I knew in the game understood they would have to improve themself and do what they could if they wanted to beat content. If you wanted to suck, thats fine but you would not be able to do everything.

Yes, but what you didn't see was that the sub numbers were made up of people who never even got to max level.

With LFR you are able to suck as much as you want. You can be a warrior who gems spirit, its ok, the boss will die anyway.

Right. And these are average players, completely nomal in every way.

Do people want to be bad, or are they just bad cause they cant figure out HOW to improve? Maybe they dont want to improve?

They don't give shit, they'll never give a shit and there isn't much reason why they would.

For some reason people on this forum can't accept this simple fact. Most suggestions cluster around either incentivising people who don't care to someohow magically care or removing all content from them like that wouldn't destroy wows subs base and end all raiding forever anyway.

People don't care much. Just accept the fact.

[Firebert]

[Players] don't give shit, they'll never give a shit and there isn't much reason why they would.

I agree with this statement. So long as players are having fun, they really don't care that they're doing 4kDPS, or that they're standing in fire, and so on.

WoW's a game, first and foremost, and looking to improve your character from LFR to Normal shouldn't mean that WoW should stop being fun for them.

[Deleted]

It used to be 25% for last tier, now only 28% of guilds are clearing ToT (7534/26171). That number should be around 13k (50% clear): as it stands, Ji-kun should be the end boss, not Lei Shen. ToT is currently two tiers rolled into one with only one tier of gear.


Currently T14 isn't easy. Otherwise we'd see a greater than 28% clear rate.

---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 09:11 PM ----------


LFR, as it has effectively guaranteed high quality raids so long as millions of players see the content.

Raids where great before LFR was added to the game

Technicly than the end raid boss for 10 man would be megaera

Jin'rokh the Breaker (10) 25742 (98.27%)
Horridon (10) 20020 (76.43%)
Council of Elders (10) 17700 (67.57%)
Tortos (10) 15608 (59.59%)
Megaera (10) 13889 (53.02%)
Ji-Kun (10) 13030 (49.74%)
Durumu the Forgotten (10) 11278 (43.06%)
Primordius (10) 10909 (41.65%)
Dark Animus (10) 10086 (38.51%)
Iron Qon (10) 9288 (35.46%)
Twin Consorts (10) 9095 (34.72%)
Lei Shen (10) 7146 (27.28%)

And the endboss for 25 man would be Twin consorts.

Jin'rokh the Breaker (25) 2147 (96.45%)
Horridon (25) 1841 (82.70%)
Council of Elders (25) 1802 (80.95%)
Tortos (25) 1558 (69.99%)
Megaera (25) 1539 (69.14%)
Ji-Kun (25) 1406 (63.16%)
Durumu the Forgotten (25) 1302 (58.49%)
Primordius (25) 1294 (58.13%)
Dark Animus (25) 1241 (55.75%)
Iron Qon (25) 1171 (52.61%)
Twin Consorts (25) 1158 (52.02%)
Lei Shen (25) 923 (41.46%)

Basicly the remaining 25 man guilds get a heck of a lot longer than the 10 man guilds.

The numbers are from wowprogress the tier 15 (25) and tier 15 (10) man numbers respectively.

[CrusaderNerò87]

So thats it then? Now warriors gemming spirit is what blizzard should make normal modes for? Thats the game everyone wants and needs. With that in mind, why not just remove every piece of stat in the game. Do so that whatever button you click you dps, tank and heal good enough.

I refuse to accept that fact. I refuse to believe that this game should be made for people doing everything wrong except logging in and mashing buttons without knowing why. IF blizzard should focus 100% on them, they might aswell redesign the whole game and just remove insane hard facts to grasp like dont stand in fire, basic knowledge of what stats is good for you.

Also, if normal modes were made very easy and nothing else was done I dont think many guilds would stick together. The endless grind of already done content often dont work out for guilds in the end. People get bored of that to. I like to think that challenges gets people together, via communicating and a wish to contribute to the guild so they can reach goals.

What do you think of this :
Keep LFR and let it drop LFR loot. Make 10 man easy, let it drop LFR ilevel loot. Let 25 man drop higher item level gear and let 25 man be for those who seek a decent challenge.

[Firebert]

Raids where great before LFR was added to the game

See the following raids:
*old Naxx that almost no-one saw (prompting a copy for T7)
*Firelands with similar exposure (prompting LFR to be rushed in befire it was ready)
*Ruby Sanctum being an Obsidian Sanctum reboot (prompted by ICC lasting far too long)
*etc.

I mean, there have been some great raids (Karazhan, Ulduar, ToC, Dragon Soul, and so on), but their exposure was nowhere near that of what LFR is today: by week 5 of Dragon Soul over a million characters had cleared it.

[Nobleshield]

What do you think of this :
Keep LFR and let it drop LFR loot. Make 10 man easy, let it drop LFR ilevel loot. Let 25 man drop higher item level gear and let 25 man be for those who seek a decent challenge.

How about LFR drops LFR, 10 drops equivalent to what it drops now and 25 drops equivalent to Thunderforged?

[Firebert]

So thats it then? Now warriors gemming spirit is what blizzard should make normal modes for?

The vast majority either don't gem or don't gem "correctly" (that is, not what EJ/AJ/etc. explicitly state and the more hardcore players take as gospel). Normal modes should be balanced for ungemmed and unenchanted Warriors.

Please cut the hyperbole.

Also, if normal modes were made very easy and nothing else was done I dont think many guilds would stick together.

Normal mode ToC. Relatively easy. Guilds stuck together.

What do you think of this :
Keep LFR and let it drop LFR loot. Make 10 man easy, let it drop LFR ilevel loot. Let 25 man drop higher item level gear and let 25 man be for those who seek a decent challenge.

What of 10 man Heroic? And does this also mean removing shared lockouts?

---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 09:31 PM ----------

How about LFR drops LFR, 10 drops equivalent to what it drops now and 25 drops equivalent to Thunderforged?

How about loot isn't the problem here, only the gaps between difficulties?

[CrusaderNerò87]

How about LFR drops LFR, 10 drops equivalent to what it drops now and 25 drops equivalent to Thunderforged?

Yeah sure. Im just having a hard time getting how Blizzard can balance between 10 man and LFR. What is to hard? What is to easy? What will the difference be between lfr and 10 man? According to posters here, those who do LFR and wish to do 10 man(but its to hard now) is very, very bad. They probably already fail in LFR. What do we do with 10 man then? let it be supereasy as LFR and give it better loot?:S

[Deleted]

So thats it then? Now warriors gemming spirit is what blizzard should make normal modes for? Thats the game everyone wants and needs. With that in mind, why not just remove every piece of stat in the game. Do so that whatever button you click you dps, tank and heal good enough.

Well, why not?

I refuse to accept that fact. I refuse to believe that this game should be made for people doing everything wrong except logging in and mashing buttons without knowing why. IF blizzard should focus 100% on them, they might aswell redesign the whole game and just remove insane hard facts to grasp like dont stand in fire, basic knowledge of what stats is good for you.

You've got heroics modes to play min max RPG hero in. There is space in wow right now for a semi organised experience that is fun for friends but which doesn't require enormous amounts of homework or game knowledge.

Why you (or anyone else) don't want it to be in the game is a complete and utter mystery to me, really is.

Also, if normal modes were made very easy and nothing else was done I dont think many guilds would stick together. The endless grind of already done content often dont work out for guilds in the end. People get bored of that to. I like to think that challenges gets people together, via communicating and a wish to contribute to the guild so they can reach goals.

What do you think of this :
Keep LFR and let it drop LFR loot. Make 10 man easy, let it drop LFR ilevel loot. Let 25 man drop higher item level gear and let 25 man be for those who seek a decent challenge.

How about let 10 man drop the best loot, 25 man/heroic modes mog loot and LFR slightly less than 10 man loot.

If people genuinely seek challenge, they don't need gear.

[Osmeric]

The vast majority either don't gem or don't gem "correctly" (that is, not what EJ/AJ/etc. explicitly state and the more hardcore players take as gospel). Normal modes should be balanced for ungemmed and unenchanted Warriors.

I'd be fine with raids, even LFR, not allowing entry of players who are not sufficiently gemmed/enchanted.

[Deleted]

See the following raids:
*old Naxx that almost no-one saw (prompting a copy for T7)
*Firelands with similar exposure (prompting LFR to be rushed in befire it was ready)
*Ruby Sanctum being an Obsidian Sanctum reboot (prompted by ICC lasting far too long)
*etc.

I mean, there have been some great raids (Karazhan, Ulduar, ToC, Dragon Soul, and so on), but their exposure was nowhere near that of what LFR is today: by week 5 of Dragon Soul over a million characters had cleared it.

Rehashed content so what.
Yes naxx was a great raid so they rehashed it, and why not it was a great raid. I guess almost no one saw aq40 does that mean they schould rehash it too???

I do not see it as a succes that 1 million characters got content clear in DS within 5 weeks. not considering that DS was the only thing out there for what the next 10 months.

With 59k 25 man guilds having set foot in ICC according to wow progress I would estimate it to be 1.25 mio chars having set foot in there. And that isn't that bad in my book. And pls note I didn't look on the ICC 10 numbers.

But generally the raids where great before LFR.
It is not like they got better with LFR^^

[Firebert]

I'd be fine with raids, even LFR, not allowing entry of players who are not sufficiently gemmed/enchanted.

Wow. Really? This game needs less barriers to entry, not more. This change would:

*make AH players richer, as Enchanting and Jewelcrafting would become far more valuable than the other professions,
*make Enchanting/(Gathering/Tailoring) or Mining/Jewelcrafting the only two viable options for professions for average newlymade characters
*reduce the exposure of raids, something Blizzard clearly have been fighting against since Firelands,
*etc.

I don't see any good in that change at all.

[CrusaderNerò87]

There you go again Injin. Calling people who manage to clear normal mode "min max RPG hero". I am 100% sure there is stuff to improve on my main character both some gemming and gamestyle, hopefully it will stay that way.

Dont deny the fact that if LFR and 10 man were both VERY easy from the start, people would moan here about heroic mode being to hard. People want to be revarded for minimum effort, and you seem to admire these kind of players. Calling people who do normal modes in wow for a "min max RPG hero" or a crazy theorycrafter is just sad.

I guess it has come to this in the gaming world, atleast in mmos. No wish to improve, want loot for minimum effort, bosses should die no matter what you do.

Seems like LFR hurt more than anything. Noble idea of Blizzard to let everyone see content, but now they are facing new demands for the same people they made LFR for. Make the normals super easy. They are probably going to do it. some time down the road, they are going to nerf heroic mode to so people get easy loot there to, cause you know, they kinda deserve it even if they do everything wrong.


Well brb, gotta read up on my class, theorycraft for about 10 hours and study videos after that. Hard to be a normal mode raider!

[Deleted]

The vast majority either don't gem or don't gem "correctly" (that is, not what EJ/AJ/etc. explicitly state and the more hardcore players take as gospel). Normal modes should be balanced for ungemmed and unenchanted Warriors.

Gemming wrong and not enchanting just shows that you do not give a fuck, likely completely do not give a fuck. Why do you need new items if you do not give a fuck. I do not think that normal mode schould cater to people who do not do some basic things to try to get ready. Basicly not gemming correct just shows that your an idiot and a jerk.

What I do think is that it schould offer is an oppotunity for player of average skill to try it out. I did say skill not equip.
Basicly if your group totally sucks and is brainfried you schouldn't get far.
If your NOT an idiot you schould be able to progress halfway through the raid and then have some bosses that challenge you.

[Firebert]

Yes naxx was a great raid so they rehashed it, and why not it was a great raid. I guess almost no one saw aq40 does that mean they schould rehash it too???

They decided that enough people had seen AQ40 and then scrapped the area when revamping Azeroth.

I do not see it as a succes that 1 million characters got content clear in DS within 5 weeks. not considering that DS was the only thing out there for what the next 10 months.

Why not? DS got loads of exposure, raiding was again put safe as Blizzard's path for end-game content. Are you not happy with that?

With 59k 25 man guilds having set foot in ICC according to wow progress I would estimate it to be 1.25 mio chars having set foot in there. And that isn't that bad in my book.

ICC was a great raid. LK was overtuned, however.

It is not like they got better with LFR^^

Oh, but they did! The reason that you have 16 bosses with the opening tier of MoP is because LFR validates spending a lot of time on creating raiding content. Without LFR I'd expect Terrace wouldn't even exist until 5.2, ToT would be partially opened in 5.3 and fully opened in 5.4, and the killing of Garrosh just ending up as a world event and no raids until the next expansion.

People really underestimate how valuable LFR is to WoW, even if it's trash to them.

---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 09:54 PM ----------

Why do you need new items if you do not give a fuck?

Because this game is all about progressing your character regardless of skill/attitude/etc.

What I do think is that it schould offer is an oppotunity for player of average skill to try it out. I did say skill not equip.
Basicly if your group totally sucks and is brainfried you schouldn't get far.

Currently, if your group totally sucks then you're either:

*still dying to Stone Guards N and are on the verge of unsubbing,
*still dying to Elegon N and are on the verge of unsubbing,
*still dying to Garalon N and are on the verge of unsubbing, or
*still dying to Horridon N and are on the verge of unsubbing.

Why? They're the cockblocks of the current dual Tier, 47k players that have killed Stone Guard Normal and only 20k have killed Horridon Normal.

What we should be seeing is 47k players killing Stone Guard Normal and 23.5k players killing Lei Shen Normal.

[Deleted]

There you go again Injin. Calling people who manage to clear normal mode "min max RPG hero". I am 100% sure there is stuff to improve on my main character both some gemming and gamestyle, hopefully it will stay that way.

No, I clearly stated that heroic mode was there for people who want to min max and be super challenged.

Dont deny the fact that if LFR and 10 man were both VERY easy from the start, people would moan here about heroic mode being to hard. People want to be revarded for minimum effort, and you seem to admire these kind of players. Calling people who do normal modes in wow for a "min max RPG hero" or a crazy theorycrafter is just sad.

I don't admire them. I just accept two facts - 1) they make up the vast majority of players. 2) they won't ever change.

I guess it has come to this in the gaming world, atleast in mmos. No wish to improve, want loot for minimum effort, bosses should die no matter what you do.

it hasn't "come to this", it's always been this way.

Seems like LFR hurt more than anything. Noble idea of Blizzard to let everyone see content, but now they are facing new demands for the same people they made LFR for. Make the normals super easy. They are probably going to do it. some time down the road, they are going to nerf heroic mode to so people get easy loot there to, cause you know, they kinda deserve it even if they do everything wrong.

Oh good lord. Normal modes used to be accessible. The only thing being asked for is that they are again.

Well brb, gotta read up on my class, theorycraft for about 10 hours and study videos after that. Hard to be a normal mode raider!

Jaysus.

[Osmeric]

Wow. Really? This game needs less barriers to entry, not more.

The barrier for entry for this requirement is "do you have a pulse?". Essentially no skill is required to gem/enchant, especially if the requirement isn't for "perfect" gems/enchants. For example, green-quality current expansion gems would do.

If a server is so low pop that someone cannot buy the enchants/gems on the AH, the problem is the server, not the requirement, and Blizzard should have done something about that.

[Firebert]

The barrier for entry for this requirement is "do you have a pulse?". Essentially no skill is required to gem/enchant, especially if the requirement isn't for "perfect" gems/enchants. For example, green-quality current expansion gems would do.

You missed the point.

Gold is required for gems/enchants, and tying entry into raids to the Auction House is an incredibly bad idea. Even uncommon gems would skyrocket.

[Osmeric]

You missed the point.

Gold is required for gems/enchants, and tying entry into raids to the Auction House is an incredibly bad idea. Even uncommon gems would skyrocket.

Uncommon gems would not skyrocket. Really, they would not. Right now, huge numbers of vendor trash uncommon gems are made (and vendored) by JCs trying for the occassional "perfect" proc.

The supply for all this would easily be there. All this is doing is gently coercing people into doing what they should have been doing anyway. This kind of automatic nanny mechanic is needed especially for LFR, which lacks a raid leader acting as gatekeeper.

[Deleted]

People really underestimate how valuable LFR is to WoW, even if it's trash to them.

---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 09:54 PM ----------


Because this game is all about progressing your character regardless of skill/attitude/etc.


Currently, if your group totally sucks then you're either:

*still dying to Stone Guards N and are on the verge of unsubbing,
*still dying to Elegon N and are on the verge of unsubbing,
*still dying to Garalon N and are on the verge of unsubbing, or
*still dying to Horridon N and are on the verge of unsubbing.

Why? They're the cockblocks of the current dual Tier, 47k players that have killed Stone Guard Normal and only 20k have killed Horridon Normal.

What we should be seeing is 47k players killing Stone Guard Normal and 23.5k players killing Lei Shen Normal.

Somehow that first tier just sucked. And had we had the old wrath system, I am now claiming that in my opinion the numbers would be good enough for raids being made. Beside the whole LFR justifies raids point is BS in my opinion. If that was the case why make raids back in vanilla or TBC at all i mean so few raided back then probably compared to the millions of LFR users^^.

Unfortunatly you can't compare the t14 and t15 numbers. in the way you have done. Basicly a lot of guilds, probably half, have thrown in the towel and just given up raiding. only 27k guilds have killed jinrokh.

---------- Post added 2013-05-29 at 09:06 PM ----------

You missed the point.

Gold is required for gems/enchants, and tying entry into raids to the Auction House is an incredibly bad idea. Even uncommon gems would skyrocket.

oh no gold we have to get gold.
We get gold thrown after us. Gems aren't that expensive, they are not even that difficult to get. That is just a very poor excuse.