Would you prefer Garrosh killed, exiled, imprisoned, or redeemed?

[Dreknar20]

In the Warcraft 2 game, Andiun Lothar is beaten to death and killed by a group of ogres before the battle of Blackrock Spire. The retcon in the book Tides of Darkness which is the official canon is that Lothar fights with his army and he and Doomhammer meet on the battlefield and have a personal duel which Doomhammer ends up winning.

but is that it? What about all the ruthless tactics he employed?

I read that Doomhammer apprantly never befell the blood curse (I think) yet is still a green orc and was more than willing to lead his bloodthirsty brethern to destroy the Alliance

[Rend Blackhand]

but is that it? What about all the ruthless tactics he employed?

I read that Doomhammer apprantly never befell the blood curse (I think) yet is still a green orc and was more than willing to lead his bloodthirsty brethern to destroy the Alliance

His tactics weren't ruthless or anything but the weapons he had were.

Gul'Dan promised Doomhammer death knights that can help against the Alliance so Doomhammer wouldn't kill him (he had just finished wiping out the majority of the shadow council and was waiting for Gul'dan to come out of a coma). Doomhammer is then completely fine with the Dragonmaw Clan doing their business, he recruits Zul'Jin and the forest trolls to the Horde which was good because they knew the land and brought an aspect of stealth and ranged combat to help with the High Elves. Gul'Dan also created much stronger two-headed ogres, some of which were intelligent enough to become ogre mages, through arcane rituals.

Doomhammer skillfully used all the resources he had to win battles but he didn't employ many tactics that can be considered underhanded.

The Orc's skin became green before they drank the blood of mannoroth, it was close proximity to active warlocks for long periods of time that caused it so Doomhammer was affected because the Blackrock Clan had loads of warlocks. When the orcs drank the blood of Mannoroth, they just got slightly bigger, a lot stronger and very blood aggressive. The entire Frostwolf Clan did not drink the blood and neither did Doomhammer.

[Deleted]

In the Warcraft 2 game, Andiun Lothar is beaten to death and killed by a group of ogres before the battle of Blackrock Spire. The retcon in the book Tides of Darkness which is the official canon is that Lothar fights with his army and he and Doomhammer meet on the battlefield and have a personal duel which Doomhammer ends up winning.

Technically, Lothar wasn't even there. All we saw was a group of ogres beating up a random group of Alliance units for 10 seconds and then we had to build a naval fleet... on the Burning Steppes...

[fartman69]

WTF? The Horde is divided like never before and we're about to see a full Darkspear Trolls revolution, the Forsaken hate him, the Blood Elves almost rejoined the Alliance, Baine and the taurens hate him too for killing Cairne.

> The blood elves hate the high elves too much to rejoin the Alliance next
> The forsaken only are only out for the Forsaken (Example: the battle for Undercity) and the Forsaken only dislike Garrosh due to his policies on the plague.
> And Vol'jin outright hates Garrosh, as soon as he took over the Horde he wanted to leave.
> Blizzard tried to make a Doomhammer 2.0 it failed lets move on.
> Also stop bringing up Theramoore it was basically Horde Territory anyways. (Is the Horde suppose to just leave Hostiles in your backyard?)

[Zulkhan]

I wish to see him executed, though as unlikely it WILL happen, but death will please me all the same for Garrosh, just give us a new Warchief, hell even if it's uhh, Loth'whats his name? (can never remember it for some reason... no joke intended by the way)

Loth'whats lol

Lor'themar man.

---------- Post added 2013-05-21 at 11:36 PM ----------

You obviously missed the point of what i was writing, but continue arguing, i won't. Don't have time like you, to do 10k posts, cause my balls are itching every minute.

Ooh ooh we have a tough and cool guy here.

*sarcasm*

---------- Post added 2013-05-21 at 11:40 PM ----------

To tack on to that during Tides of War Garrosh reflects on how he feels better over his victory in Theramore than he did for his victories in Northrend because he didnt have to "share" it

Well, having "full" merit (if the usage of a mana bomb is a legit instrument for call it so) for ensure a victory compared to the 1/3, maybe even less merit he had in Northrend give indeed some satisfaction.

[Mormolyce]

Too bad that Hellscream's legacy ends with this corrupted, evil warmonger. That's the only reason that I hope for redemption. The way that Grom was purged by Thrall after drinking from that pool of demonic water.

Maybe he'll have a son who learns from his lesson and redeems the Hellscream name.

Oh wait we tried that already :P

---------- Post added 2013-05-21 at 11:59 PM ----------

Technically, Lothar wasn't even there. All we saw was a group of ogres beating up a random group of Alliance units for 10 seconds and then we had to build a naval fleet... on the Burning Steppes...

Haha yeah I love how nobody ever mentions the huge geographical retcons. Remember the massive naval battle in Tyr's Hand?

I could've sworn Lothar had a named unit though... I have to go back and replay that mission.

[HardCoder]

I'd like to see him killed, dried, and ground into a seasoning which will be used in the next expansion.

[Deleted]

I could've sworn Lothar had a named unit though... I have to go back and replay that mission.

Sorry, my mistake, Lothar was indeed there, as a named knight unit. It was long time ago.

But even so, it was a game engine not ready for storytelling, like Starcraft (and Warcraft III) then became. The novel didn't changed the ambush part, though. Only the one on one part with Doomhammer was added (Doomhammer never appeared as unit in WCII).

[Tyrannica]

So what exactly is this whole ret-con over Doomhammer? (dont have first hand reading of the novel or whatver this came from)

People seem to paint him as this super noble person, yet during the height of the Second War he employed brutal tactics in his desire to destroy the Alliance. Death knights, dragons and what not.

Was all this stuff retconned into not happening?

---------- Post added 2013-05-21 at 09:52 PM ----------


tentacle love much?

http://www.wowwiki.com/Orgrim_Doomhammer --------> this, basicly the lore about him and what he had done. Most of it he did ingame in the wacraft games. Like:

Weakened by losses caused by Gul'dan's treachery, Doomhammer was forced to fall back from the human capital of Lordaeron to his fortress at Blackrock Spire. There he fought the final battle of the Second War against the Alliance of Lordaeron, leading a charge from Blackrock Spire to clash with Anduin Lothar and his paladin guard. Human and orc battled one another in a titanic conflict that left both warriors drained, but the Warchief was able to vanquish the Regent of Azeroth. Some believe that Doomhammer did not win fairly and that Lothar was killed after being ambushed by Horde warriors. Nevertheless, Lothar's death did not have the effect that Doomhammer intended. Rather than being demoralized, the Alliance - led by Lothar's lieutenant, Turalyon - rallied, whipped into a frenzy that shocked even the Warchief himself and all but destroyed Doomhammer's forces, chasing them back to the Dark Portal. Orgrim himself was defeated and captured by Turalyon, soon after Lothar's death.

The underlined part is what happened originally in the game wacraft II: Tides of Darkness. There was absolutley no honor duel before as stated in the novels that would make Doomhammer more alike Thrall and his father Durotan. But ineed, he was Doomhammer the Backstabber before allready:

Leading the Horde through the Dark Portal after defeating the draenei, Blackhand conducted the entire war effort against the Kingdom of Stormwind in what became known as the First War. Though Stormwind eventually fell, Blackhand was left vulnerable when Gul'dan fell into a coma after attempting to steal information pertaining to the Tomb of Sargeras from the mind of Medivh. Seizing the opportunity provided by the powerful warlock's incapacitation, Blackhand's second-in-command, Orgrim Doomhammer — later known as the Backstabber for the deed he was about to commit — decided to seize power from the puppet Warchief, hoping he could lead his wayward people from the path they had taken. Leading loyalist troops in a surprise attack, Doomhammer defeated Blackhand and cut his head from his shoulders, becoming both Warchief and Chieftain of the Blackrock.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Blackhand

Lothar ambushed

The Alliance would have to pass through the Spire in order to retake the Kingdom of Azeroth, and Doomhammer was unwilling to retreat any further. The stage was set for the final battle between the Horde and the Alliance.


After the battle of Crestfall, the remnants of the routed Orcish fleet went south to Azeroth. With the war being all but finished, Lothar's intent during the parley was to accept the unconditional surrender of the Orcish Hordes. Unfortunately, Doomhammer wanted to fight till the end. When Lothar and his troops arrived near Blackrock Spire, they were ambushed by a huge group of orcs and ogres. Lothar fought with courage, but his forces were outnumbered. He was slain by Doomhammer, and only a handful soldiers survived the battle, including the paladin Turalyon, who would since be haunted by survivor's guilt.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Assault_on_Blackrock_Spire

You decide whats the better story original way or retcon. I'd say Doomhammer doesn't need to be another paladin and should have his flaws and twists as it was original intended - it makes him just more of a legend.

[Deleted]

This is what really happened on WC2:



In other words, the weakness of the RTS engine of those days. Doomhammer wasn't even there and somehow that spread like wildfire by the badly sourced WoWwiki.

---------- Post added 2013-05-22 at 01:36 AM ----------

http://www.wowwiki.com/Blackhand

Complete speculation. We have no details of what really happened between Doomhammer and Blackhand. All that we have is that Doomhammer took control of the Horde after defeating Blackhand (and cutting his head, which is based on a drawing by Metzen).

It is Gul'dan that call Doomhammer "Backstabber", because Doomhammer took the control of the Horde from him.

[Tyrannica]

This is what really happened on WC2:



In other words, the weakness of the RTS engine of those days. Doomhammer wasn't even there and somehow that spread like wildfire by the badly sourced WoWwiki.

---------- Post added 2013-05-22 at 01:36 AM ----------



Complete speculation. We have no details of what really happened between Doomhammer and Blackhand. All that we have is that Doomhammer took control of the Horde after defeating Blackhand (and cutting his head, which is based on a drawing by Metzen).

It is Gul'dan that call Doomhammer "Backstabber", because Doomhammer took the control of the Horde from him.

He wasn't even here, cause its an ambush, in where his men slaughter Lothar. If he is here or not is completely irrelevant. He ordered the death of Lothar to demoralize the Alliance troops, if he did the killing blow or not while ambushing Lothar won't change his character or part in this in any way.

[Zaelsino]

You kind of have to appreciate that WC2's engine was piss poor for storytelling. They were bound to expand and change and beef up the characters and the conflict in the novel.

[Tyrannica]

You kind of have to appreciate that WC2's engine was piss poor for storytelling. They were bound to expand and change and beef up the characters and the conflict in the novel.

What do you expect? The game is really old...however i played it, when it was released and enjoyed it a lot. And this event really shocked me, it wasn't something to ignore easily. The alliance leader just got friggin ambushed!!!

Since that day, i really loved Orgrim Doomhammer, also the way how he dealt ruthlessly with Gul'dan and Blackhand. Thrall, wouldn't do all these murderous ambushes as its not his style, but current Garrosh would.
To be completely honest, it looks like Orgrim got good natured after meeting with thrall, but that was after the war and the battle at black spire, the orc got old.

But i do not get the votes for a kill on Garrosh in this thread. Yes he isn't a strong leader as Doomhammer was and he doesn't seem to be very smart. But i think Blizz made the same with Arthas in wrath of the lich king and Deathwing in Cataclysm, these all 3 do not look excatly like smart chessplayers. They are able to tell a great story in a game, but lately they don't do it. And i really dunno why.
I consider wacraft3 doing a much better job in telling the story of our favorite villains(heroes), you could follow the path of Arthas, Illidan, Kael'thas and Grom Hellscream pretty well.

As a horde player, i dunno, if this rebellion and the downfall of Garrosh can be good for us. No one is worthy of the title "Warchief" waging that war with the Alliance. And while i trust in Sylvanas, she won't be accepted by the orc population.
Saurfang seems tired.(listen to his speech in northrend in warsong hold about pigs, and that was before his son died)
Voljin is the troll version of Thrall.
Blood elves only care about themselves.
Baine cares about the light and his tauren.

Without a critical lore surprise in the final of SoO, i suppose this will be the end for the horde as a faction or, if really voljin takes over, its the end of the conflict of alliance and horde for quite a long period of time.

I wonder if there are plans in the future to take the faction idea out of the game?