I feel like WotLK was the sweet spot

[slime]

I agree with OP, except ruby sanctum... if that wasn't foreshadowing of the quality of content coming.. I don't know what was.

[Osmeric]

I agree with OP, except ruby sanctum... if that wasn't foreshadowing of the quality of content coming.. I don't know what was.

The terrible reception RS got should have warned Blizzard of the approaching storm, but I guess it was too late or they were too blind.

[Deleted]

I miss Wrath-style healing.

Yes, I'm aware I may be the only one.

You're not

[Jaq]

MoP is my third expansion-yes, I'm a Wrath baby-and I have to agree that Blizzard hit the sweet spot between making a game that was challenging for the average player, yet easy to get into. Far too many people base their opinions of Wrath on a couple of notions; one, that the dungeons were easy, and, two, that the raids weren't all that hard. (Everyone on the official forums, if you ask them, was breaking 4K DPS in quest greens and AOEing their way through dungeons while clearing all the raids the week they came out.) Truth was, they weren't easy for the average player. I was wiping in dungeons until 3.3, which was about the time that the launch dungeons-tuned for those people with quest greens and blues-got to the point that people decked out in 232-264 gear could just wallop their way through them. The ICC buff existed for a reason; to get the vast number of people trying to raid and hitting a brick wall in various places through the raid. And it STILL didn't help; only six people in my guild got Kingslayer at level 80, and that was a very typical experience on my server.

Yes, by the time 3.3 came out, you could hit 80 and within a week be in ICC. But it still took ABILITY to do ICC well. That's a game that is perfectly put together to keep someone playing. My best friend, who got me into the game, did that after being away from the game for months. You couldn't really do that in Cata until 4.3 dropped, and it's a lot harder to get ToT geared from nothing than Blizzard lets on. Wrath got that right.

[Deleted]

It doesn't matter what caused it. It's obvious that WotLK was doing something right while Cataclysm and MoP are not.

It 100% matters because you are using it as the entire basis for your "OMFG I MUST BE RIGHT SUBS ARE LOWER" argument.

There are far far far more things that affect subs than feature x or feature y, if you can't see that you are in total denial.

But hey go ahead and believe what you want who am I to influence you, I expect no less from MMO-C.

---------- Post added 2013-05-21 at 01:37 PM ----------

I miss Wrath-style healing.

Yes, I'm aware I may be the only one.

You are defo not the only one, but you might be in the minority, this is Blizzards entire problem, every single tiny little thing they do people will be unhappy and come to MMO-C and moan and bitch about it

Buy I would unsub instantly if they went back to Wrath-style healing.

[killidan]

That graph is misleading at first. Note that the green line isn't representing an amount, but the amount of change. Basically, BC showed the quickest gain in subscribers, followed by Wrath, and then Cata started the major decline, and with MoP is sinking faster than ever.

I have no idea if this has much to do with dungeons though. Its always important to realize that correlation is not the same as causation.

Nothing misleading about it when it says change (%) clearly. Each of the last two expansions lost 20% of the subs. If you need help understanding plain simple information, I can refer you to some educational website for special people.

[Wildmoon]

LOL! I love the "WOW is old" line. COD is old and they crank out a new one every year that is the same polished turd and people still rush to the stores to buy it. Face facts, Blizzard dropped the ball with Cata and that's all there is to it. So yeah id say that Wrath was the best xpac they put out with BC at a very close second.

This is pretty much BS. "WoW is old" is really legit issue. Each xpac will be harder and harder to keep subs. I myself am pretty bored with WoW now because I have been playing it for very long time not because of WoW is bad now or anything. WotLK didn't even gain the most sub. BC gained a LOT more. Subs started to decline at the end of WotLK. CoD and WoW comparision is also dumb. CoD releases on both PC and console. It's FPS game that doesn't require you to pay for subs. EA treats each CoD game as a new game and people buy that shit. All of these show how clueless you are.

[Deleted]

funny cuz two years ago if you said wrath was the best.

You were a wrathbaby.

My how times have changed.

Back then we didn't know nor expected the following 2 expansion to be really bad. We have been proven wrong.

[killidan]

What is this rubbish?

Ridiculous, TBC had a lot of shitty dungeons. There's a reason why it's the worst part of leveling 1-90. Blizzard took the multi-wing instance thing too far and we got oversized repetitive dungeons like Auchindoun with recycled assets and bosses, don't tell me that crap was so compelling. And back then there was no random heroic option, so everyone just did Mechanar... so what was the point of having heaps of 5m bosses if people all did one dungeon?

WoW is just old, buddy.

I know right! WoW has been turned into rubbish with "ever declining new content" and "rehash of old content". No surprise subs have been declining as well.

Quality is subjective and I won't try to quantify it. I graphed the number of new bosses in 5-mans just to exemplify the fact that Cata and MOP had drastically reduced 5-man content. Yes, it is rubbish that we get merely 6 new dungeons (19 bosses) in MOP compared to 16 new dungeons (57 bosses) in TBC and 15 new dungeons (52 bosses) in Wrath.

[mistahwilshire]

LOL! I love the "WOW is old" line. COD is old and they crank out a new one every year that is the same polished turd and people still rush to the stores to buy it. Face facts, Blizzard dropped the ball with Cata and that's all there is to it. So yeah id say that Wrath was the best xpac they put out with BC at a very close second.

Except now CoD is in decline after doing the same thing for 6/7 years. Funny how that works.

[Ferocity]

I fully agree with OP.

And if someone says anything preCata lacked balance, so what? Cata+ tuning killed whole game with "balance" (which is actually balance explicitly around max level raiding, completely ruining leveling balance which is also a big part of game), dumbed down talent trees and other core elements, hybrid's healing becoming beyond pathetic outside of healing spec, interesting abilities (eyes of the beast, ritual of sacrifice, divine interverntion, etc.) were removed at a cost of making all classes having similar nukes and similar tedious combat flow, taint of dispel system (preCata dispels had no cd, had low mana cost and wouldn't trigger gcd if there was nothing to dispel), etc.

And sry, but simplicity of combat flow was a plus in preCata. Now, if not LFR I wouldn't describe you a single boss, as attention is moved away from actual fight to procs, dbm timers, short-term buffs, cds, floor, cast bars and so on.

[Deleted]

Wrath for me is where the current problems with the game began. Badge tokens making content obsolete, LFD removing a huge chunk of social interaction, and recycled and watered instances being presented as new content. Not forgetting the Nax/OS/Maly raid tier was about as bad as raiding has been if you don't count ToTC.

But, good times were had, as pre-LFR there was still some community and interaction that hadn't been cut in the name of instant gratification. And I must admit, Yogg, Algy, and LK were most epic moments in the game before or since.

It's funny though, when cata was released wrath was seen as as bad as it can ever get, and was hated by almost everyone in every post. Now it's the high water mark. People will be saying the same about cata in 2 years time .

[wrynil]

I'm right with you... I could write a dissertation as to why Wrath was so amazing - and what Blizz totally missed about it when going "forward".

My favorite was LFD. 12 dungeons meant they never got old... they were 20 minute action-packed funfests where I got to USE my raid weapons/armor and see a difference I can make. And dungeons ALWAYS gave useful rewards even at a raid tier. From Gold, to blue Shards and epic shards (can't get that from 5 mans anymore), to frozen orbs (useful for crafting and/or buying other rare crafting mats), badges could buy heirlooms, BoE epics to sell, mounts, rep tabards, rep tokens, pets, other raid-tier crafting orbs.

That's just LFD... I can go on and on about the design of the whole land, the fact I LEARNED and SAW the lich king do bad things and understood why he became who he was, the variety of landscapes, I just can't get over how much you could do.

If there's any problem with WoW I could point to today, it would be that. It's not about having just a variety of things you can do, but a variety of things you can do and NOT become bored with them.

You should walk out of a dungeon saying "OK, what did I get in my haul today?" instead of saying "Damn... I need to run this dungeon XYZ 20 more times so I can hit exalted in that rep....ugh". I did that with Wrath LFD and general adventuring. I couldn't do that with Cataclysm...

Although you cannot go on and on. Cause all there was was LFD. It was the only real choice.. You got alot and all from just doing dungeons. If you liked dungeons ofc wotlk gotta be the best expac for you, but there have never been more to do than MoP, and the different ways of gaining stuff. To me it is just i liked the pace of wotlk LFD, but it should be applied to all other content aswell then. .. And those 12 dungeons surely got old to me.

But saying there was much to do in wotlk .. Not true at all.. It was very alt friendly.

The atmosphere - the lack of LFR, the raiding (icc more than anything) difficulty was great. I started raiding back then, not knowing about enchants and such things, but i still got into a raiding guild, and i learned to raid like that. That is FAR FAR FAR more rewarding than the LFR way. I rather suck and know i can get better and with that see the content, then just grinding enough heroics to get the gear ilvl i need to get a free pass to see all the raiding content. I never saw beyond freya in ulduar back then. (and never killed her) and this was in a pug. I sucked so much, very a poor player but i still got to raid. Today they act like the only way of seeing content if you suck is to press the free ticket to lfr. Not very rewarding.. No speciel feeling about that.

Give me 3 difficulties, easy normal and heroic. Easy for the newbies like i was (wotlk standards maybe a bit easier), Normals like they are now, i love the tuning of those, they feel really rewarding when you kill stuff with a somewhat casual guild, while we are never really stuck, and heroic like they are now, harder than any content ever seen before (from LK till now, except madness ofc <_<, crappy fight). And just remove that sick place called LFR. Do some realm mergings, let pugs have their glory back. Trades there were full of pugs when i played there back in wotlk are empty now, together with alot less people on the realms as they got nothing to do when they couldnt pug no more.

Edit: Another notion - i loved questing in the old world before cata, i hate what they did. Doesnt feel like an adventure as much as a world at war where everything is the same no matter where you go. It doesnt feel like uncharted lands you are exploring.

Also the new talent system is too unawarding to people leveling. Sure you have some choices when you hit top lvl and do raiding or pvp'ing, but alot of the time there are still cookie cutter builds. The synergies between the abilities you have with a specc works best together with one ability and that way it become cookie cutter. Back then you could also go out of the masses and not use a cookie cutter build. I loved that every level(or was it every other?) i had something to look forward to, progressing my char even from lvl 10 and onwards, spending the first 10 levels learning a little about the char and pushing for lvl 10 to get that award that points was.

[Osmeric]

And sry, but simplicity of combat flow was a plus in preCata. Now, if not LFR I wouldn't describe you a single boss, as attention is moved away from actual fight to procs, dbm timers, short-term buffs, cds, floor, cast bars and so on.

The increased complexity of rotations is one of the lesser emphasized causes of the problems the game has had post-Wrath. I lay this one firmly to blame on Street, since it's his area of responsibility.

[melodramocracy]

I miss Wrath-style healing.

Yes, I'm aware I may be the only one.

You aren't. I miss Wrath pally tanking too. And volley.

Last (so far) of the 10 level expansions, followed by two smaller ones that both lost subs. First we hear that subs are lost because the content isn't good. Then we hear that subs went away because the content is too grindy. Maybe the problem is that it's just not compelling.

Don't get me wrong, MoP is a solid expansion, and Pandaria is at times intriguing (and quite pretty), but it's not particularly menacing with the exception of Dread Wastes. So it's hard to describe, but that feeling of 'ominous' isn't all that apparent, or at least doesn't really smack you when you first arrive in the way, say, landing in HF or going through the dark portal did. I suspect that things like that sort of stick with players, and set the tone for everything else they view as they go along.

Maybe in the long term, this break is what was needed in the game so the next expansion can absolutely blow folks away in that regard. *shrug*

---------- Post added 2013-05-21 at 09:47 AM ----------

LOL! I love the "WOW is old" line. COD is old and they crank out a new one every year that is the same polished turd and people still rush to the stores to buy it.

Console players. Enough said.

/glorious race

[Madruga]

Maybe in the long term, this break is what was needed in the game so the next expansion can absolutely blow folks away in that regard. *shrug*

I always enjoyed the break betwen pacthes and expansions, so we could keep up with the content. Don't get me wrong, I like having lots of stuff to do, and am greatly enjoying Pandaria. However, right now I have lots of time to dedicate to the game. Even so, I am getting overwhelmed by how fast they are launching new content... When Real Life gets rougher, I don't know if I will be able to keep up and probably will lose some interest in the game...

I think Blizzard has yet to find a good balance. 1 year of Black Temple, 1 year of ICC and 9 months of Dragon Soul is certainly taking too long. But giving the masses only 5 or 6 months of Tier 14 with 14 bosses after leveling all the way to 90 and still grinding dungeon gear is too little time, and might prove even more disruptive than taking too long.

[pld]

I miss PvE in Wrath (although I'm loving raiding right now), and I think we could adopt a similar model for future raid tiers.

10 man normal - slightly easier than 25 man, lower ilvl, few "TF" drops, low chance for 3 drops per boss
25 man normal - harder than 10 man, higher ilvl, more "TF" drops, 6 drops per boss
10 man heroic - similarly tuned as 25 man heroic, reduced ilvl gap between 25man heroic and 10man heroic gear
25 man heroic - slightly higher tuned than 10 man heroic, highest ilvl option

25 man LFR - faceroll, keep as is

I'm aware that people aren't happy with the current state of LFR, but I think it actually serves it's purpose as a way for people to experience content and catch up in gear.

As a 10m raider, it stings to suggest that we get the "downgraded" version of the gear, but I think adding an extra "difficulty" of raiding currently solves two issues:

1. It'll make normal raiding more accessible to family/friend/casual guilds. ToT is a great raid and our 10m team is progressing into heroics now, but I can see how more "casual" guilds may be getting stuck early in the raid. The fights (at least during normal progression) can be challenging for healers and our first few Iron Qon kills were DPS checks (~10-30 seconds from Enrage). Making 10m slightly easier, as they were in WoTLK, would help more guilds experience more content in normal difficulty - which is the difficulty that I believe Blizz wants the majority of the population to experience the content in (opposed to LFR as it is now).

2. Making 10m easier will allow people to pug successful normal raids. Unless you are on a High or active Medium population server with a pool of good raiders, I would imagine forming a successful ToT raid is extremely difficult. Apart from Jin'Rokh, the bosses in ToT require a lot of coordination (interrupts on Horridon, target swaps on Council, etc.) that will cause a raid to wipe if not performed accurately. Fights shouldn't be tuned down to LFR levels where fight mechanics aren't needed, but they shouldn't be to the point where one mistake can cause an entire raid to wipe.

10m progression guilds (like mine) shouldn't be neglected either, which is why I proposed a smaller gap between 10m heroic and 25m heroic gear. If the ilvl difference between 10 man normal vs 25 man normal gear is (hypothetically) 7 levels, as it was in WoTLK, the ilvl difference in heroic gear could be brought down to 3 or 4. The heroic fights in a 10m heroic raid would have to be easier to accomodate for a lower ilvl, but I'm sure the numbers can be tweaked to make sure neither raid size has an overall advantage.

One last note - I proposed a chance for a 3rd loot drop in 10 man raids because RNG can be cruel and sharding loot after loot can be a bigger hinderance for 10m guilds vs. 25m guilds (at least in my experience).

I believe these changes could address the decline in normal raiding that we've seen in addition to spurring on more community interaction.

[Regen]

Wrath was my favorite time of WoW. I still love running back to Ulduar and ICC for nostalgia.

[mvaliz]

the term AOE fest is applied to trash mobs, usually more than one. Loken was alone, there is no point to use aoe spell on him. And yes, you had to move out of his aoe to live, was it so bad.


by gather and deal, you mean AOE them?


by holding, you mean you lose them due to ... AOE?
or you were taking much damage due to ... AOE tanking?



indeed, nice boss, nice cataclysm boss


well, those were 1 to 1 fight, so you shouldn't ... well ... aoe him.
Beside, that part was easy as pie...



again, single boss, you don't aoe him. But the trash before them, you ... aoe them.
that boss, you could kite him out of line of sight of the sphere.




They totally were ... when you fight more than one enemy at a time. As soon as there was 2+ mob, spam aoe.



nope the death of the community started out in wrath. 10 and 25 man PUG, were still maintening some community ties, but LFR dealth the killing blow.

None of this is correct... we had to use CC on trash. Seriously? the Nexus you never used CC? The hunters, healers and guardsmen in the frozen section? You didn't focus-fire on the golems/casters during Bran? You never CCed those spinning runemasters in Halls of lightning? You never stunned a raptor, which kept the trolls from dismounting? You never CCed the hunters riding the rinos? You never CCed those hunters that shot flares or put up that HORRIFIC reflecting shot shield?

None of you remember that? Seriously?

[Confirm Deny]

S5 was still infinitely better than S9 and S12. TSG was bad by the end of wrath, and LSD got a bit out of control but thats it. PvP was in its best state ever at the end of S7/start of S8.

I was more referring to the fact that I think Wrath has had an influence on S9 and S12 than trying to imply it has gotten better. But, yes, I admit about my initial points that usually something is extremely broken at the start of expansions within arena (dk/paladin, resto shaman, warriors one by one) before they try to even it all out at the end. Not sure if Resto shaman ever got there in Cata since I wasn't paying attention before I quit, but hey.

None of this is correct... Seriously? the Nexus you never used CC? You never stunned a raptor, which kept the trolls from dismounting? You never CCed the hunters riding the rinos? You never CCed those hunters that shot flares or put up that HORRIFIC reflecting shot shield?

None of you remember that? Seriously?

Stunning mounted riders (happened in Zul'aman too) isn't anything new... and doesn't really count.
Otherwise, I remember stunning (as a holy paladin) the 2nd priest on the extra heroic mini-boss in Nexus, but CCing the Mage Hunters? No. Not necessary at all from my experience since the second week of Wrath. Reflective shields being a problem (like the ones in Violet Hold)? That's something that all of my guilds combined used to break out in laughter at people when it happened. Was a good bonding experience, though =P