So 5.3 caused disc to be miles ahead again.

[Nekked]

No, people are saying that if Atonement/absorbs are to be "brought in line" (whatever that really means), Disc needs sustained AoE HPS as compensation.

Whether or not that is the appropriate path, people (like you) not understanding the full argument and just going "lol that makes me laugh"...makes me laugh really hard.

Pretty much sums up the state of disc healing in 25s especially atm.

[mcbubble]

You don't seem to understand what you are proposing. Atonement being 5-8% of a priests healing is wrong. Atonement like every other heal contributes to divine aegis which is a major source of healing for disc.

Atonement spirit shell and PWS on 10man make up like 60% of a disc priests healing, when you factor in divine aegis coming from atonement.

Your proposed changes would leave disc with nothing viable to cast outside spirit shell. 20k mana per PWS with 150% rapture is a joke.

Your rationale for the nerf is also wrong. If I heal 20% more than you i.e. I am at 55% and you are at 45%, if I get nerfed by 15% then I will be at 46.75% and you will be at 53.25%. I.e. the situation is reversed now you are 15% above me. What I lost you gain, so if I lose 15% you gain 15%. You are also understimating your nerf dramatically it is way more than 15%, but worse of all you leave disc without any viable smart heal and without any spamable heals either, unless you think disc priests should be casting heal.

You need to understand how a class works before you can propose changes.

---------- Post added 2013-06-21 at 11:39 PM ----------



http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...a-den/25H/hps/

I see no significant differences between monks and holy paladins.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2638&e=3037

Here is the damage pattern on raden. 70% of the fight the raid is taking an average of 500k HPS, which is low HPS. For the remaining 30% the raid is taking 1.5m HPS.

Here is total healing for the rank 1 parse. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=3037#Renewing

Top is the monk 2nd is a disc priest.

Now look at the low HPS 1st phase: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2638&e=2899, disc priest is on top and only monk comes anywhere close.

Look a the high HPS 2nd phase: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=2901&e=3038

Oh look... disc priest is dead last. Although he is dead last his difference with every except the monk is the last phase is so large that it easily makes up for it.

Let us look at a top disc parse. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/w...=6429#Pingwing

Low HPS phase: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/w...?s=6030&e=6268
high HPS phase: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/w...?s=6267&e=6430

high relative to the healers that are there, but nowhere close to the 300k + HPS that monks, holy priests and holy paladins and resto shamans can achieve. Druids and disc are in fact the only healers who can't seem to break 270k HPS in that part of the fight. I remember seeing parses of ppl switching disc from holy and getting like 20% more HPS in the last phase.

Incidentally a very important point from the high HPS disc log. Lets look at the healing breakdown.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/w...?s=6263&e=6430

Divine star accounts for just about 70% of the divine aegis amount and 13.6% of total healing. In other words divine star alone accounts for over a third (!!) of this person's HPS.

Looking at some of the links you posted shows a clear distinction of priests being on top. I'm not sure how you could refute this with those links.
What I find funny - when I went to the ra-den top HPS links, I saw paladins and got excited.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...a-den/25H/hps/

Then I did a count and saw:
7 Holy Paladins
24 Priests
9 Monks

Even better, go to the TOP hps from all fights:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...f_Thunder/hps/

Take away Jin'Rok (where you get the increased healing), and you'll see almost no holy paladins on that page.
There is a very high priest and monk presence though.

[nobodysbaby]

The point he made is Disc can't beat Holy on heavy AoE dmg and only pulls ahead by sniping a lot better at low dmg phases (this is where Holy rly do suck) where it's not rly needed anyways. So have a closer look at the healing curve on Ra Den. Who's saving ppls asses at the last burn phase? Who's pushing the most healing where is matters? Ppl do stare themselves blind on overall healing done.

With that said, I don't deny Disc are OP, but not cause of healing done, but dps done and utility.

[Floopa]

The point he made is Disc can't beat Holy on heavy AoE dmg and only pulls ahead by sniping a lot better at low dmg phases (this is where Holy rly do suck) where it's not rly needed anyways. So have a closer look at the healing curve on Ra Den. Who's saving ppls asses at the last burn phase? Who's pushing the most healing where is matters? Ppl do stare themselves blind on overall healing done.

With that said, I don't deny Disc are OP, but not cause of healing done, but dps done and utility.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/b...?s=4189&e=4320

Siory's rank as Disc. This is only p2. Yeah, destroying the HPS meters like that sure isn't "being awesome at covering heavy AoE damage". Stop kidding yourselves. The only healer which can beat Disc at the moment, on the PTR, is a MW and that's because the current 4 pc (for MWs) is super OP (although the Disc one is too).

[Deleted]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/b...?s=4189&e=4320

Siory's rank as Disc. This is only p2. Yeah, destroying the HPS meters like that sure isn't "being awesome at covering heavy AoE damage". Stop kidding yourselves. The only healer which can beat Disc at the moment, on the PTR, is a MW and that's because the current 4 pc (for MWs) is super OP (although the Disc one is too).

With the constant aoe damage going on in P2 spirit shell will be fully used always and PoM with the 2set will use all 5 charges, yes of course disc will have high hps in P2 Ra-den, nothing to do with attonement however and P2 lasts quite a short time. Disc cannot sustain that kind of aoe healing throughout an entire fight like for example holy can.

[Floopa]

With the constant aoe damage going on in P2 spirit shell will be fully used always and PoM with the 2set will use all 5 charges, yes of course disc will have high hps in P2 Ra-den, nothing to do with attonement however and P2 lasts quite a short time. Disc cannot sustain that kind of aoe healing throughout an entire fight like for example holy can.

I thought Holy was unplayable because it went OOM within 20 seconds of the fight?

[Deleted]

I thought Holy was unplayable because it went OOM within 20 seconds of the fight?

Not sure why you're posting on the priest forums when you seem to know so little of our class.

[TirielWoW]

I thought Holy was unplayable because it went OOM within 20 seconds of the fight?

Sounds like you're in greens and spamming flash heal.

[Rorschachs]

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/b...?s=4189&e=4320

Siory's rank as Disc. This is only p2. Yeah, destroying the HPS meters like that sure isn't "being awesome at covering heavy AoE damage". Stop kidding yourselves. The only healer which can beat Disc at the moment, on the PTR, is a MW and that's because the current 4 pc (for MWs) is super OP (although the Disc one is too).

Aren't you the guy who thinks people aren't going to be using any holy paladins in the next tier? and what is so op about the 4pc for disc.. it does %3 of my healing max..
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D.../7/30/default/ disc is 4k ahead of holy and about 9-10k hps ahead of mw. I don't know how this means disc needs dramatic nerfs to pw:s and atonement like you suggested. (If you think mw 4p is op, wait till their next 4p..)

If they keep designing fights like horridon with aoe burst damage on a 1min timer, or a fight like ra-den with bursts of aoe damage and spiky aoe damage where hots mostly overheal because everybody does OP stacked healing, then disc will probably keep being ahead. If we see more fights like iron qon next tier, nobody will be complaining about discs.

(siory has about 550 ilvl btw, I wouldn't start with one of the best geared disc priests in the world to prove that they are op..)

[Floopa]

Holy paladins as they are on the PTR are the worst healers. In 25s, based on current performance you'll use 3 Discs, 1 MW/Druid, 1 Shaman. That's how broken Disc is on PTR. On the PTR the MW set bonus accounts for an additional 20-25% healing (basically it's OP and is getting nerfed). However here's the funny thing: Discipline Priests can keep up with MWs quite easily with their 4 pc. All I've seen Discs doing is using the 4 pc and then spamming Atonement / PW: S. I don't think at all during our PTR testing did our Priest use SS with PoH and exclusively used it with PW: S.

If you've yet to test anything on the PTR keep your opinions to yourself because they're worthless. I'm sorry for stating the obvious but at the moment the healer balance is completely out of whack because Discipline exists. Holy performs very, very well but is totally overshadowed by the brainless monster that is Discipline.

Also, I'm correct about Paladins. On the PTR they're half a healer at best.

[AvatarM]

Holy paladins as they are on the PTR are the worst healers. In 25s, based on current performance you'll use 3 Discs, 1 MW/Druid, 1 Shaman. That's how broken Disc is on PTR. On the PTR the MW set bonus accounts for an additional 20-25% healing (basically it's OP and is getting nerfed). However here's the funny thing: Discipline Priests can keep up with MWs quite easily with their 4 pc. All I've seen Discs doing is using the 4 pc and then spamming Atonement / PW: S. I don't think at all during our PTR testing did our Priest use SS with PoH and exclusively used it with PW: S.

If you've yet to test anything on the PTR keep your opinions to yourself because they're worthless. I'm sorry for stating the obvious but at the moment the healer balance is completely out of whack because Discipline exists. Holy performs very, very well but is totally overshadowed by the brainless monster that is Discipline.

Also, I'm correct about Paladins. On the PTR they're half a healer at best.

Floopa is right, MW are doing OP healing in PTR cause of 4T16. 20-30% healing of MW is the 4t16 bonus. AND disc priests are able to compete with them. The bonus is OP and probably will be nerfed. BUT disc priests? They will be doing DAT healing, still doing 80k-100k dps. This is really broken, meanly in 10 man. How disc priests think they don´t need to be nerfed?

[Deleted]

Blizz should've nerfed the atonement healing a WHOLE lot more for us than what they did. That seems to be one of, if not THE major part of why disc is so tarded in 10s.
If they'd smash atonement healing to the ground, as they should, you'd already see the 10s balancing out. Atonement most certainly shouldn't proc DA.

Absorbs will most likely always be > raw healing, but on the off chance they'd actually be smart on nerf atonement further, our absorbs would have to stay fairly strong as that'd be basically "all we do" outside atonement and last tier talents. Disc is strong in 25s, but I don't feel straight out OP anymore (Horridon and Jikun aside) like I did start of this tier. Am guessing the 10s are a quite different story.

[Noradin]

Atonement most certainly shouldn't proc DA.

I always thought it should just cause healing proportional to the damage caused. When they changed DA they should just have taken it from atonement and left the transfer of crits.
That would make damage multipliers still worthwile to look out for but a much bigger part of that increased healing would simply be overheal.
It would also help straigthening out the mess that is disc healing logs - with each spell causing a phletora of effects that are shared by several of them, hiding which spell did what.

Also, while I agree that absorbs are stonger than raw healing, that is only true as long as the absorbs are no less than the raw damage intake.
If the damage taken per second is 100 then raw healing of 101HpS are stronger than 99ApS, even if those absorbs let the targets start the fight with a EH of trice their AH.
The problem is that as soon as you go below that thereshold absorbs will start 'sniping' heals and push the raw healing into overheal on the logs, which is believed to be worthless (which is not entierely true) and dismissed.

[Deleted]

If the damage would be a constant 100HpS I completely agree with you Noradin on your example given, however, as it more than often isn't, the absorbs will always "come first" as it was, and before they make the incoming damage a) high enough and b) constant enough for PWs to fall behind due to WS and the lack of mana, absorbs will unfortunately stay very strong, and dare I say, stronger than heals.

As has been established many times on this post before, the situation is quickly changed when the damage is high enough AND constant, in situations such as heroic Iron Quon. Even Megaeras heroic Rampages last long enough for discs bubbles to no longer exceed raw healing. If we had more fights similar to these, other classes would most likely feel more viable through raw healing.

I've still regrettably got to disagree with you on atonements healing, I really don't think the healing from it should be proportional to the damage dealt (unless they nerf the damage of smite a lot, which they wont cause boo-hoo dailies whine), as even without DA, where the crit healing would just be double, and even when that scenario would cause more overhealing, in a lot of cases that healing would still be too strong and unfair in relation to the actual dps utility a disc brings to a 10 man.

I've yet to see a serious post where other healers would complain that a disc is op in 10s purely due to the healing numbers, it's always about the fact disc does stupid amounts of dmg WHILST pushing out similar, or more often so higher, healing numbers as compared to the other healers, who deal next to 0 dmg. If you would take away either the dmg a disc brings, or just purely nerf the healing they do through atonement by A LOT (think 20% of dmg done converted to healing), the situation would more and less fix itself. Not only would disc "lack" spot healing abilities outside Penance, but they'd end up doing less dmg as simply forced to use actual healing spells. I'm not claiming it's as simple as that, as I would feel cut short in 25s without ANY spothealing spells (realistically outside penance I dont see us having much, maybe BH as an expensive choise), but in my opinion that would be a step in the right direction for discs.

And this ended up being way longer than I intended

[nobodysbaby]

Why do you believe Disc would lack spothealing if Atonment was nerfed? Haven't you got FH, GH, Renew, PW:S and Penance (regular spells just like the rest)? And I would say Disc would be great at it, just compare it to Holy's very poor spothealing in 25 atleast, where we have big Chakra issues and oom issues if we push our FH/GH buttons too hard. Bad compared to what class?

I totally agree, Atonment (and shields) should be more limited. 50% of dmg done as healing would still be very much OK.

[Deleted]

It might be an error on my behalf, or just the fact I've been spoilt with atonement for so long (bad excuse in itself ) but I don't consider GH nor Renew as disc to be any sorts of efficient spothealing. As stated, Penance is great, and to be fair, if they left offensive Penance to heal as it does now, but nerfed both smite and HF (take or leave solace) to AT LEAST 50% healing done, in my opinion it should be even less, our spothealing would be fine enough really.

[laplacedemon]

As stated, Penance is great, and to be fair, if they left offensive Penance to heal as it does now, but nerfed both smite and HF (take or leave solace) to AT LEAST 50% healing done, in my opinion it should be even less, our spothealing would be fine enough really.

I'm trying to understand your line of thought, so don't mind me asking this... Without Grace but with Evangelism stacks, Penance has almost three times the hps of Smite, HF ~1.5 of Smite but you want them to nerf Smite? Pretty much the biggest reason we're seeing this much Atonement on logs is because they added Penance to it, which is almost as good as a non-overheal PoH on 3 targets.

I wouldn't care (numbers-wise) if I did less healing with Smite to be honest, I would probably still cast it in low damage phases -which are quite frequent in 10s- even if that 50% nerf would put Smite to lower hps than Heal (and that won't really happen, sorry). I would mind not having a viable filler though. Smite wasn't anything good during Cata (had even a longer cast), but our filler was pretty much PoH. Always casting something is how I always played disc so far, so losing that would be a quite boring thing for me, even more boring than PoH spam of Cata.

I think the encounter design is to blame too like you say though. Especially at this point of time in tier, damage in 10s isn't quite high (much, much shorter fights) so I can't even get outhealed on relatively high AoE damage fights. And having that much dps (I think it goes for monks too, even if it means that they are losing quite a lot of hps) from a healer seems like a design fault to me.

[Rorschachs]

Holy paladins as they are on the PTR are the worst healers. In 25s, based on current performance you'll use 3 Discs, 1 MW/Druid, 1 Shaman. That's how broken Disc is on PTR. On the PTR the MW set bonus accounts for an additional 20-25% healing (basically it's OP and is getting nerfed). However here's the funny thing: Discipline Priests can keep up with MWs quite easily with their 4 pc. All I've seen Discs doing is using the 4 pc and then spamming Atonement / PW: S. I don't think at all during our PTR testing did our Priest use SS with PoH and exclusively used it with PW: S.

If you've yet to test anything on the PTR keep your opinions to yourself because they're worthless. I'm sorry for stating the obvious but at the moment the healer balance is completely out of whack because Discipline exists. Holy performs very, very well but is totally overshadowed by the brainless monster that is Discipline.

Also, I'm correct about Paladins. On the PTR they're half a healer at best.

I have played on the ptr with a healer comp that consisted of a hpala, a mw monk and a disc so.. your argument is invalid.
Also holy paladins will see some changes ; but even if they didn't it would be stupid to not bring one to a 25man raid considering how much utility they have.

[Floopa]

I have played on the ptr with a healer comp that consisted of a hpala, a mw monk and a disc so.. your argument is invalid.
Also holy paladins will see some changes ; but even if they didn't it would be stupid to not bring one to a 25man raid considering how much utility they have.

You mean the same utility the best tank (Prot Pally) brings? I just can't believe I'm hearing these things. If you would still bring a Holy Paladin because of their utility (even though they're basically half a healer on PTR) surely it's fine for Atonement and DA and PW:S to get nerfed because of the absurd utility Disc brings in the form of:

- additional damage
- best (largest + most reliable) absorbs
- damage reduction CDs.

I mean, you bring utility so it's fine if your healing is basically worthless right? What a genius argument. Thanks for asking for nerfs, I applaud you because it's about time the Disc Priest community realised their spec is beyond stupid and warrants getting nerfed back down to mortal levels.

[Deleted]

I'm trying to understand your line of thought, so don't mind me asking this... Without Grace but with Evangelism stacks, Penance has almost three times the hps of Smite, HF ~1.5 of Smite but you want them to nerf Smite? Pretty much the biggest reason we're seeing this much Atonement on logs is because they added Penance to it, which is almost as good as a non-overheal PoH on 3 targets.

After a few cups of coffee I'm not sure I'm following my own line of thoughts anymore, so I'm not too surprised you'd have difficulties too
My point, I think, was that I'd rather negate the healing of all other atonement spells (e.g. make smite and hf heal for nothing / something very trivial) and keep the Penance atonement as is, due to it having a 9sec cd = not spammable. By removing the smite healing the cd would actually stick closer to 9sec, as people would (hopefully) not be able to spare the time casting smites to lower the cd due to no healing gained from those smites, making it more viable to use other spells, God forbid.
This would leave us a strong spot healing spell, on a cd, which would somewhat force us to use it on demand, rather than a mindless "whatever might as well cast something" -spell as it STILL is most fights even after the offensive nerf. You can argue that only slackers and bad discs use it offensively now as it's stronger defensively, but 85% of the bosses it just simply doesn't matter all that much, realistically. Take / leave the more difficult end bosses as hc.

That was somewhat where my thoughts were, if it makes sense or not / if it's viable or not I wouldn't argue for, but it would at least bring a bit of a change to the current situation.