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  1. #61
    Elemental Lord ringpriest's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    The Pearl
    Quote Originally Posted by Salech View Post
    Their talk about talent trees are so stupid, these new talents are not better in anyway it's just bad.
    I agree, but you might as well be talking to the wall. Ghostcrawler is pretty obviously in love with "his" talent system and equally obviously completely clueless about the state of the game. We're not going to see a decent talent system until he's gone. (Fortunately, if sub numbers continue to behave like the naval vessel with the same name, we may see that sooner rather than later.)
    "In today’s America, conservatives who actually want to conserve are as rare as liberals who actually want to liberate. The once-significant language of an earlier era has had the meaning sucked right out of it, the better to serve as camouflage for a kleptocratic feeding frenzy in which both establishment parties participate with equal abandon" (Taking a break from the criminal, incompetent liars at the NSA, to bring you the above political observation, from The Archdruid Report.)

  2. #62
    Stood in the Fire Dhru's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    New York
    Blizzard devs you are on the way to lose more subs. Great job!

    If you fu**k up with tanks they will get less fun from the game, and again set more weight on the healers... That means less tanks -> longer queues (do you remember in RF when we are waiting for a tank?) -> 2-3hrs waiting for 26g... no thx. -> loosing subs. -> people realize this game is not the most popular so they will leave too...
    Most of the tanks cannot manage their role... and with these changes far less decent tanks will be.
    Soloing is really fun in that game nowadays, and now you try to destroy that too... shame on you.

    I am in a casual guild (10man raiding). But one of our main tanks will change to dps before 5.4, and we need to find a "good" tank before 5.4... How Blizzard? HOW?
    I have got characters on 3 realms, and those realms have got at all 5 guild with 25 raiding. 5! You killed the 25 raiding teams, now make harder the 10 man content with this... Well done!

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Calthric View Post
    Please get rid of the awful vengeance system. Threat should be generated by abilities rather than damage and there is really no need for tanks to dish out the amount of damage that they currently do, especially when they have countless panic buttons, defensive abilities and self healing in addition.
    Vengeance is a good thing for a few reasons:
    -It provides incentive for people to play Tank (it is still an underplayed role WITH vengeance). Without vengeance, there would really be no fun in tanking; you would do negligible dps on every fight and there wouldn't be very many little tricks that could be pull off to make a fight just that small amount smoother (since many rely on vengeance)
    -It provides extra survivability when it is needed. More attack power equals magnified absorption and self-healing effects. This really matters on tough fights. Removing vengeance will make many fights a lot harder, even undoable. I actually kind of wish they do it a lot so that people suddenly realize what good vengeance does for them.
    -The extra raid DPS matters. Think of all the fights where you beat the boss by only a few seconds; Imagine not having upwards of 100k or more extra raid DPS from one or both of the tanks. Once again, fights become a lot harder
    -It is a balancing factor for tanks. High-vengeance DPS levels put tanks well into the 100k range, but base DPS actually varies quite a bit between the classes. Prot paladins, for example, might seem to do well with their 100k dps or so, but at 0 vengeance, our DPS barely escapes the 20k range (hence why we are totally screwed out of Brawler's Guild and PvP, and why questing is an absolute pain). This puts us at a great disadvantage to other tanks, but vengeance effectively solves it by increasing our damage to such a point that the variation is negligible.

    Quote Originally Posted by brirrspliff View Post
    what kind of a fail-comment is that? why not just triple the damage from <insert dps class here>? everyone in your raid would be MORE than happy, because the raid is getting ridicoulus amounts of free DPS!

    see what i did there?
    Your parable doesn't work, because if one DPS class suddenly did triple damage, they would be in much higher demand, and raid groups would be obliged to take 6 of them to cheese a fight. With tanks, the same effect does not occur because you cannot have a raid of 6 or so tanks, all with high vengeance. The damage will be focused on one tank, since the majority of vengeance on fights comes from the melee damage (boss melee damage is actually really high, but armor reduces most of it from the get go, and since vengeance is based on the unmitigated attack, most of it is from these melee hits).
    So, having one or two tanks in the raid doing high DPS is win-win, unless you are really egotistical. Your raid gets a lot of extra DPS on high damage fights, i.e. where it counts, and you can't exactly go in with 10 tanks, leaving everyone else out. So yes, when you see a tank doing very high dps, you should be very happy that your total raid dps is raised by a considerable margin.

    Quote Originally Posted by brirrspliff View Post
    i'm with you there! i remember the good old times when you could measure the skill of a tank by how well he was able to hold aggro, especially on multi-target fights. it made the difference between "everything under control" and "houston, we have a problem (and many dead dps+heal)". nowadays everything tanks have to do is spam their 400% boosted aoe abilities, topping the meters and not even look at threat - threat has become superflous. it was even more fun for me as a dps when i had to closely watch my aggro on the mobs. now i ignore it.
    See, this design really doesn't sit. Back in Vanilla wow, boss fights were incredibly simple by themselves; it was dealing with your own class mechanics that was the hard part. These days, design has shifted to dealing with an actually hard boss, using optimized class mechanics. This is a much better and more interesting design, in my opinion, because with the old design every fight in Molten Core and so on was essentially the same; waiting for sunder stacks, using threat drops on cooldown, etc.
    These days, the challenge in tanking does not stem from holding threat, but from where it really should be; managing incoming damage not only adequately, but optimally. This means swapping talents between fights, cooldown management, developing personal strategies for dealing with harder fights, keeping vengeance in mind when using particular abilities such as absorbs and heals, etc. If you think tanking these days is nothing but button mashing for free dps, you simply have not played tank, at least on harder fights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    So, your concern is the extra dps the raid will lose, making encounter more difficult? Well I am sure they will balance it. Besides, not DPS gets more pressure to cover tank damage loss! Really no need to cry. UNLESS... you feel good being up there in the meters which makes you like the selfish DPS you are describing...
    I am really having trouble understanding some of what you are saying here: particularly "Besides, not DPS gets more pressure to cover tank damage loss!". No offense, but please write this more coherently, I really cannot tell what you are trying to say.

    The balancing that will have to occur in response to this change simply emphasizes how unnecessary this change is; there are many cons, but pretty much no pros. All the balancing they would have to do would simply not need to be done if they didn't go ahead with the change, or if they made the caps at more reasonable values.
    It is quite a rubbish argument to say that we are the ones being selfish here; on most fights, we don't top dps anyway. It is kind of fun doing 140k dps or so, but I'm not overly proud of it because I know that I am getting it from vengeance; I am proud of doing 140k on my hunter because I know that is actually my own good execution of the class. I am simply saying that you need to look at this from the perspective of not individuals trying to down a boss, but a whole raid trying to. ANYONE doing very high dps should be seen as a good thing, as it means the boss fight will be smoother. DPS is DPS, whether a damage dealer or a tank does it. At the end of the day, the boss is being downed faster and no one should give a shit, but many DPS are that egotistical that they think potentially game-breaking changes should be undergone to prevent tanks from doing high dps on some fights. When you value your own DPS ranking more than the competence of a raid as a whole, you do not appreciate raiding properly and you should change your mentality regarding it.

    Exactly! Stamina should have been higher in value! You are tanks. I am sick on seeing tanks hunting non-tanking stats in gear and still be effective. This is not normal. I understand that they made tanks gameplay more interesting by adding the active mitigation (was a DK tank before all this happen to the rest of the tanks) but they still overdid it.

    We have paladin tank in our guild that stacked haste like no tomorrow. We actually disenchanted any item with "tanking stats" on it! He even claimed priority on horidon's heroic trinket! You know... the haste one? Well, we reached tortos... and guess what? His haste setup was not that good against aoe tanking. And we could not use him there effectively. I can sure say that he can shove his precious dps gear up his ... a$$
    Severe misunderstanding of the paladin class. Haste has a very high value as a mitigation stat; we are NOT taking it because it gives us more dps. The DPS gain from haste is non-trivial at best. However, if you compare the relative values with respect to mitigation of all the stats, both haste and mastery come out on top BY FAR over dodge and parry, as does reaching the hit and expertise caps. This is why we are taking what is apparently 'dps gear'; the fact that we cannot bonus roll for the said gear, nor do we see the stats on our tier, doesn't mean it is not good gear for us. Blizzard, for whatever reason, doesn't want Paladins taking haste and excludes it from our tier and non-set epics, but if you take the initiative to actually compare the stat values and find out which is the most helpful, as some have, it is found that Blizzard is in fact wrong and you should be taking those pieces that you weren't intended to have.

    Haste has value as a tank stat because of three things: the talent Sacred Shield, and a passive ability called Sanctity of Battle, and the global cooldown
    -Sacred shield is a 30 second buff that provides an absorbing shield every 6 seconds, lasting 6 seconds or until the maximum amount of damage is absorbed. Haste increases the frequency of the shield application. At 18% haste, instead of the shield being applied every 6 seconds, it is applied every 4.6 seconds. This results in a greater overall net damage reduction from the absorption. Vengeance also incidentally increases the amount of damage absorbed.
    -Sanctity of Battle causes our haste to reduce our ability cooldowns; including our holy power generators (crusader strike/hammer of the righteous, and judgement). This gives us higher holy power generation, and thus a higher uptime of Shield of the Righteous. Shield of the Righteous is a 3 sec buff given by the spell of the same name (which requires 3 holy power to cast) which reduces our physical damage taken by 25% (which is further increased by mastery).
    -Haste reduces our global cooldown, once again resulting in greater holy power generation

    The result of higher haste is a smoother damage intake overall. This is in contrast with an avoidance build (the "tank" stats: dodge and parry) which results in a spikier, more unpredictable damage intake. As mentioned before, it all essentially revolves around Shield of the Righteous. This is the same reason why capping hit and expertise is one of our highest priorities, which is yet another reason to ignore avoidance gear. Your paladin tank was right for tanking the spark trinket (i also have the trinket) and the haste gear, and his inability to tank tortos is not due to the haste build.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanishO2 View Post
    Tank DPS isn't free, ok? All fights are designed with the tank dps in mind. Blizzard alread said that. So if they lower tank dps, they'll balance/develop encounters for that.

    What they don't want are "clever mechanics" to have more tank dps than intended, wich also generally put unecessary strain on healers (and screw their fights intended for 2 tanks wich also make one class way better than others, since that class can solo tank while the others can't. They don't want this).
    I addressed the balancing thing earlier, but vengeance is not the reason why Paladins can solo tank many fights. All tanks get vengeance; the reason we can solo tank Horridon, Tortos, Durumu and Qon is because of how Shield of the Righteous works (we can time it for every stack application) and the fact that we can drop stacks with a quick bubble and cancel macro.

    Also, tanks standing in fires for vengeance rarely actually happens. A tank worth his salt would never do it on a fight where damage intake was already an issue, and otherwise it would only really be worth risking it if the tank knows that the healers are reliable and can guarantee survival. Surviving reliably is the absolute priority, but if we can reasonably and reliably sacrifice for a good amount of extra DPS, why not?

    Also, the vengeance cap with this change will be around 200k for most tanks. This is a level not usually seen, so tanks will STILL be standing in stuff on certain occasions to increase dps...the only way this really affects tanking is on harder, high-damage-intake fights where we DO see values of 200k. In other words, the change not only fails to address what it was intended to, but it also backfires and hurts tanks, and thus raiding, overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssviolett View Post
    Because it is a game - its competition. What the point to play DPS class if tanks do 1.5 more damage you do? If, as you say, paladin top meters while tanking, and also provide decent healing what the point to play different class then? Lets roll paladins everyone to fill all roles in raid - this is absurd. Let current specs\classes to fulfill their role. And dont worry about raid dps drop - I bet Blizzard will compensate this somehow.
    Here's an idea; ignore the tanks? The point of playing a DPS class is to play competently to assist in the killing of a boss. If you do 120k on say Megaera and the tank is down at 60k, you are doing good DPS. If we go to Durumu, and the paladin solo-tank is doing 140k but you are still doing 120k, you are still doing good dps . Why should we drag tanks down when they are doing nothing but helping the raid a little extra in high damage situations? To make the DPS feel better?
    If the current model of vengeance allowed for raids to be done with all prot paladins, people would already be doing it. There is a good reason it is not done, and I described it before. In a normal raid, the prot paladin has X average vengeance. With a raid of 10 prot paladins, one of those will have X average vengeance, and the other 9 will have minimal vengeance and thus minimal damage and healing. The huge majority of vengeace comes from melee attacks.

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