Was Garrosh developed to oppose Grom Hellscream?

[Deleted]

Grom Hellscream
- Long lean hair
- Green Skin
- Gullible
- Not very intelligent
- Good Heart
- Redeemed

Why is that? He was Chieftain of one of two clans who escaped capture. I think you would need to be smart to pull that off.

[Lord Pebbleton]

They both are displayed as damn stupid.
I still remember that quest in Warcraft 3 where he were your ally, and still the major threat around since he charged human camps that wouldn't otherwise know we were there.
Damn it, Grom. I smiled when you died.

[Blufossa]

Garrosh is nothing but a poor mash up of several different writers (both novel and in game) without sense of any direction which is obvious for the constantly self-contradicting character shifts until the "well people didn't buy it so lets just make him evil in MoP" shit.

Yeah this bothered me too.

Garrosh went from turning into a respectable warchief into orc-hitler. He was MUCH better than Thrall, but they went and ruined him with the Tides of War or whatever novel bullsh*t...

[Deleted]

Garrosh is not the kind of person that care a lot about his self-being and, well, not much of those around him, either.

I noticed that, still think it was a foolish move.

[Dreknar20]

I still remember that quest in Warcraft 3 where he were your ally, and still the major threat around since he charged human camps that wouldn't otherwise know we were there..

Pretty sure those camps knew, since we already destroyed one of their outposts

Plus its not like the conflict was completely unavoidable. They were both heading toward the same place and were bound to cross swords eventually.

[Noorri]

The only explenation I can think of when it comes to Garrosh is that he is suffering from dissociative identity disorder. He's entire storyline is so much all over the place that I can't see anything else making sense.

[Dreknar20]

Garrosh instead is discarding all BUT his pride, because his pride is unnaturally boosted by the thought of his father being a great hero, that his "eyes are upon him", and so he belives that he's doing what his father would have wanted.

There was mention of that in Tides of War.
And also bout how Garrosh wants to be to the Alliance what Grom was to the demons

---------- Post added 2013-05-25 at 06:38 PM ----------

He's entire storyline is so much all over the place that I can't see anything else making sense.

its really not that messed up or far-fetched

[Trassk]

Yeah this bothered me too.

Garrosh went from turning into a respectable warchief into orc-hitler. He was MUCH better than Thrall, but they went and ruined him with the Tides of War or whatever novel bullsh*t...

Thrall never did anything wrong or misleading in his leadership, except dealing with disgruntled orcs that wanted bloodbloodbloodblood, because they couldn't get over there old hatreds. Garrosh fueled there hatreds, and that is what has lead to the horde rebellion.

Its naive players who made up or fabricated Garrosh's character into believing themselves he was more then he actually was. He was a blank nothing when he came into the main story of warcraft, with multiple writers not knowing what to do with him, a hollow character, and now that his true nature (this development in mists has been the ONLY structured development he's had) has come to light, his fanboys are trying, because it didn't meet to there fabriticated and made up belief in what he was.

Not only did Garrosh destroy the fabric of what the horde use to be, he made dozens of players into fools who believe he was more then he actually was. Its just laughable to still see people trying to defend him, saying 'oh they ruined his character!', NO THEY DIDN'T, this IS his character, deal with it.

[Lovecrafts]

NO....just no!

Ra-den could be excused, because there's no mention of it, except in Lorewalker storytelling and even there it's a nameless silhuate.
But we have ALL seen Y'shraaj's remains, so to have it being included for Heroic Only, would fak up the story... like Ragnaros differance between Normal and Heroic, which FORCES you to play heroic mode to see the TRUE ending; which wouldn't sit well with those who raid just for fun or those who only use LFR, because it would leave a HUGE plothole.

Did you PLAY the dark heart of Panderia scenario at all? Did you fail to notice the part where Y'sharaaj speaks to us, and tells us he only sleeps? That's pretty darn good for a "dead" old god he's alive, he's waiting, he'll be back. He's imprisoned under the Vale, he is not dead, he's very much alive.

[Durandro]

You know the thing I've always found so ironic with the Garrosh, Grom and Jaina angle? Its how in WC3, after Grom drinks demons blood a second time (so he clearly didn't learn his lesson the first), and become fel orc, its Jaina using her magic to contain his soul in a soul gem, allowing the demonic hold to be broken on him, and return him to normal.
Jaina saved his ass, and yet years later, Groms own son destroys theramore aimming to kill her. She saved his fathers soul, which who knows what hellish afterlife he could have gone to if she hadn't, and this is what Garrosh does to her.

This is a damn good point. The Orcs owe Jaina BIG TIME for two reasons:

1/ Saving Grom's soul. Which in turn saved the Orcs from being enslaved by Mannoroth again as it could be argued only Grom was strong enough to defeat him. She took a big risk trusting Thrall to work alongside her.

2/ Turning against her own father to protect Durotar. Without Jaina's assistance Admiral Proudmore would have likely destroyed Ogrimmar.

She essentially helped save the Orcish race on Azeroth twice, both times risking her own neck and even having her own father killed for a flimsy peace. Which in turn helped save the Mag'har in Nagrand since without her the Orcs would never have returned through the Dark Portal and saved Garadar.

Garrosh is a dishonourable pig for not even aknowledging the fact she's saved his ass directly and indirectly so many times, let alone attempting to kill her repeatedly for the crime of being human.

[Mukki]

The main difference between the two Hellscreams is that Grom had FAR MORE respect for Thrall than Garrosh. In fact, I'd be willing to say that if Grom could see what was happening now, his major beef with Garrosh would likely be the fact that he's going against Thrall's wishes and disrespecting him.

[Dreknar20]

Without Jaina's assistance Admiral Proudmore would have likely destroyed Ogrimmar.

The Horde kicked the Admiral's ass fine without Jaina.
She only helped pointing out where a shipyard was since Thrall didnt think he would need ships to cross the ocean

---------- Post added 2013-05-25 at 07:47 PM ----------

That's pretty darn good for a "dead" old god he's alive, he's waiting, he'll be back. He's imprisoned under the Vale, he is not dead, he's very much alive.

well there were blue posts sayin Y'shraaj is as dead as can be

[Sialanne]

I'd disagree with that, OP. I think that Garrosh is very much like his father. Both of them lusted for power, one from the Legion, and the other the Old Gods. They both are very hard, bloodthirsty men. I think that if Grom was is Garrosh's position, he'd likely be doing the exact same thing.

Grom did redeem himself after the battle with Mannoroth, but to think that he would have changed deep down inside after that (had he survived) is naive. People don't change like that, human, orc, or otherwise. If its in your blood, it's who you are.

[Durandro]

The Horde kicked the Admiral's ass fine without Jaina.

Incorrect. The Horde were getting a spanking before Jaina showed up to let Rexxar and Thrall know what was going on.

And even if the Horde would have won, they'd have taken considerable losses.

...also, are you admitting Thrall did something right? Where's that sentiment that Thrall could do nothing right? Or do you only hold that view when it suits you?

[Dreknar20]

Incorrect. The Horde were getting a spanking before Jaina showed up to let Rexxar and Thrall know what was going on.

Jaina only showed up to Thrall toward the end, when the Horde were preping to invade Theramore
And the Horde was hardly getting a spanking, seeing as they defeated Proudmoore's invasion of Durotar

---------- Post added 2013-05-25 at 09:42 PM ----------

...also, are you admitting Thrall did something right? Where's that sentiment that Thrall could do nothing right? Or do you only hold that view when it suits you?

no idea what your tryin to say there

[Lovecrafts]

The Horde kicked the Admiral's ass fine without Jaina.
She only helped pointing out where a shipyard was since Thrall didnt think he would need ships to cross the ocean

---------- Post added 2013-05-25 at 07:47 PM ----------


well there were blue posts sayin Y'shraaj is as dead as can be

Blue posts havebeen wrong before.

What are you going to believe more? Some over-worked, underpaid, burned-out employee who probably doesn't care anymore, or are you going to believe the in-game confirmation where the "dead" old god talks to you and tells you he only sleeps?

Dwell on that for a bit before responding. Or is this going to turn into another one of those "There isn't another Sha" incidents? Remember how that one turned out? All the nay-sayers ignoring the clues in game claiming "there is no 7th sha!" uh oh! Wrong again!

[Spraxle]

Garrosh is developed with the Sins of the Father mentality these days. His dad used anything necessary to help get the job done and Garrosh is doing the same thing. Garrosh is a bit more developed though since Grom was just a semi-side character in WC3. But you can see the parallels.

[Tojara]

The Horde would have destroyed Jaina's father period, she didn't even help them with it. The only 'help' that she provided was that she pretty much blessed them to go ahead with engaging her father. Had she had sided with her father and aided with her own forces, well that might have been a different story. Again her only 'help' was that she stepped aside.

Grom Hellscream wasn't stupid. His clan was one of the only clans to allude capture. He was a brilliant military leader and incredibly cunning.

He has faults though and he was easily drawn to power, no matter how bad it was. He ended up redeeming himself but his blood lust was only sated by the combined efforts of Thrall and Jaina's forces. Both Shaman and Priests were responsible for subsiding his full blown corruption at the end of WC3. But he and only himself was responsible for ending the corruption completely, the same corruption that to that day still effected most orcs to some degree.

Really he did redeem a bunch of Orcs killing Mannaroth. He was one of the first to consume the blood but it wasn't like he forced EVERY other clan into drinking the blood. Obviously he was responsible for himself and his own clam, but his redemption not only cleansed himself and the Warsong, but every other Orc who still had the lingering effects of the blood curse.

While Grom directly disobeyed Thrall a few times you could tell that he was sincere in his apologies to Thrall and that he greatly respected Thrall as a leader. That is the difference between he and his son.

[Dreknar20]

What are you going to believe more? Some over-worked, underpaid, burned-out employee who probably doesn't care anymore, or are you going to believe the in-game confirmation where the "dead" old god talks to you and tells you he only sleeps?

Maybe it was the burned-out employee that did the script and voice acting? =p

[Zulkhan]

Its just laughable to still see people trying to defend him, saying 'oh they ruined his character!', NO THEY DIDN'T, this IS his character, deal with it.

I could almost feel the sadistic pleasure in the statement.

The main difference between the two Hellscreams is that Grom had FAR MORE respect for Thrall than Garrosh. In fact, I'd be willing to say that if Grom could see what was happening now, his major beef with Garrosh would likely be the fact that he's going against Thrall's wishes and disrespecting him.

I disagree. Grom was like Garrosh even in this. Both displayed some kind of respect for him, but readily threw out of the window when both decided to make things as they wanted and didn't give a fuck anymore about Thrall. Grom directly disobeyed Thrall's orders by attacking the human camps, and when forced to deal with Cenarius, perfectly knowing the nature of the water in the fountain, he decided to drink its waters, and when some of his clans said to him that this was against ALL Thrall's taughts, he simply said that such things didn't matter at all, he had to defend his clan from the threat of Cenarius, and for this reason he forced anyone to drink it, condemning all his clan to demon's slavery once again.

Garrosh had a deep and sincere respect for Thrall, but he gradually lost it until the point that, in Tides of War, he even said that the root of all the problems of the Horde is the peace-loving attitude that Thrall had during his reign, and for this he was "weak".
Both of them respected him at some point, until they decided that what Thrall said to them wasn't that important, and promptly discarded it.

---------- Post added 2013-05-25 at 10:16 PM ----------

Blue posts havebeen wrong before.

They lie willingly for avoid spoilers, it's obvious, not "lolincidents", in this way most players don't speculate too much on things that should must be "surprises". The 7th sha is an obvious prove: "that was from an early draft of the story!" sure man, excatly as it turned out. Oh wait.