WoW next expansion - Health Pools -> Item squish?

[Deleted]

Hello,

I'd like to hear your thoughts about the next expansion. Since in 5.4 a tank can reach 1 mil HP I wonder what the health pools will be in the next expansion. Personally I would like to see a change in the next expansion and for all of the health pools to be reduced to BC - Wrath levels. This could be achieved through item squish as I remember seeing a post made by GC with options : 3M damage, item squish and so on (before MOP came out). The idea that we would have 2 mil health pools and do 2 mil dps seems off to me... a blood DK right now can do even MOP content solo are we all slowly becoming raid bosses ourselves.

Does anyone have any new info regarding this? Or suggestions? Please share them here (sorry in advance if this topic was already made in the past)

[Deleted]

There are other threads about this, that are very active.

Item squish in the regard you're asking for won't happen, Blizzard have already stated that they like old content soloing.

They also tried to remove a few zeroes out of every number, but it felt weird.

The exponential scaling in every expansion can still not be removed since it would remove the feel of your character getting stronger. As it is now, you can slightly notice when you get an ilvl upgrade of 20 on a new piece and that's wonderful. You really do notice 1-5% damage increase and that's the way it should be.

The downside is that people are very very bad at math and can't subtract a few zeroes without short circuiting their brains, but odds are that they wouldn't be able to use those lower numbers for anything useful anyways.

[Laeryn]

Why does it even matter? 1000 hp 1 million.. just leave it as it is..

Fully nax geared tanks in vanilla were what, 8 or 9k?
BC BT/Sunwell tanks - 20k..ish
WOTLK Icecrown hard mode tanks - 40k?
Cataclysm - I don't know, I was pvping didn't pay attention
Mop - 1 million? That's a retarded jump, I agree it's pretty inflated but really does it matter? There's so many other issues they need to iron out before they play with health and damage ratios..

[Deleted]

There are other threads about this, that are very active.

Item squish in the regard you're asking for won't happen, Blizzard have already stated that they like old content soloing.

They also tried to remove a few zeroes out of every number, but it felt weird.

The exponential scaling in every expansion can still not be removed since it would remove the feel of your character getting stronger. As it is now, you can slightly notice when you get an ilvl upgrade of 20 on a new piece and that's wonderful. You really do notice 1-5% damage increase and that's the way it should be.

The downside is that people are very very bad at math and can't subtract a few zeroes without short circuiting their brains, but odds are that they wouldn't be able to use those lower numbers for anything useful anyways.

he is talking about dk doing sha of fear i think.

[Lucied]

There are other threads about this, that are very active.

Item squish in the regard you're asking for won't happen, Blizzard have already stated that they like old content soloing.

They also tried to remove a few zeroes out of every number, but it felt weird.

The exponential scaling in every expansion can still not be removed since it would remove the feel of your character getting stronger. As it is now, you can slightly notice when you get an ilvl upgrade of 20 on a new piece and that's wonderful. You really do notice 1-5% damage increase and that's the way it should be.

The downside is that people are very very bad at math and can't subtract a few zeroes without short circuiting their brains, but odds are that they wouldn't be able to use those lower numbers for anything useful anyways.

That isn't true. The downside to how it is now is that it is simply getting out of hand for balancing purposes. I don't PvP at all, but the stat inflation is what is causing many of the issues with that, hence the scaling down for PvP. I (and many others) can do the math, though I personally don't feel I should have to go through the trouble for a game. I see the pros and cons comming from both sides of this argument, but be honest with yourself. Being strong or weak in math really isn't the problem. That said, the other things you mentioned are some of the cons that would come with the item squish.

[Deleted]

Item squisch wont come just get over it - they are just numbers.

[Lucied]

Item squisch wont come just get over it - they are just numbers.

The same thing could be said about the item squish actually happening. They are just numbers it doesn't support this debate in either direction.

[klaps_05]

all spells abilities cooldowns etc are %based and every spell has a different coefficient, having 5 or 50000000 intellect doesn't change the formula; same goes for bosses and how their hp pools are created

[Deleted]

Why does it even matter? 1000 hp 1 million.. just leave it as it is..

Fully nax geared tanks in vanilla were what, 8 or 9k?
BC BT/Sunwell tanks - 20k..ish
WOTLK Icecrown hard mode tanks - 40k?
Cataclysm - I don't know, I was pvping didn't pay attention
Mop - 1 million? That's a retarded jump, I agree it's pretty inflated but really does it matter? There's so many other issues they need to iron out before they play with health and damage ratios..

The jump became bigger in Cata and MoP because of new item level systems and because WotLK had 4 tiers. They needed to make players feel stronger every jump in gear levels they got (which wasn't a priority in Vanilla and TBC, which is why the hp levels weren't increased that much). Now with item level increase and such in MoP, the growth is even more exponential than before. 13 item levels have always been a similar increase in stat increase, percentage-wise (if compared within the same expansion).

Ilvl 346 was heroic dungeon gear in Cataclysm, and if I remember right, 416 was the absolutely highest item level you could get. An increase by 70 item levels.

In MoP, they wanted an even bigger feel of increase in gear, so they added more gear to LFR, item upgrades and now Flex, which increases it all even more. It's not retarded in any sense, because it's the only way it could happen. This results in way higher numbers, which apparently some of you feel is very negative.

Considering the very high secondary stat bonuses we'll recieve in 5.4, expect 2 million hp in BiS 6.0 gear as a tank that isn't stacking all stam and almost 3½ million by the end of 6.0. If there won't be any item squish ever, we'll likely have health pools of around 10 million hp at the end of the last expansion with BiS gear, unless there's a fourth tier in any expansion, which may raise hp pools to over 12 mil, so get used to many zeroes.

The same thing could be said about the item squish actually happening. They are just numbers it doesn't support this debate in either direction.

Actually, "they're just numbers" works one way only. We need the exponential growth in every expansion, both to prevent stat capping every new expansion and to still have a sense of progress when you get new gear. That's why the base values go up so much, to still make your character stronger in a new expansion while the crit/haste/mastery can go down again.

he is talking about dk doing sha of fear i think.

I know.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, if the high numbers bother you so much, use percentage values. You don't _need_ to know if they boss has 1600M hp or 34.7G hp.

[Vober]

Considering the very high secondary stat bonuses we'll recieve in 5.4, expect 2 million hp in BiS 6.0 gear as a tank that isn't stacking all stam and almost 3½ million by the end of 6.0. If there won't be any item squish ever, we'll likely have health pools of around 10 million hp at the end of the last expansion with BiS gear, unless there's a fourth tier in any expansion, which may raise hp pools to over 12 mil, so get used to many zeroes.


I know.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, if the high numbers bother you so much, use percentage values. You don't _need_ to know if they boss has 1600M hp or 34.7G hp.

2 Million hp?! Tanks now don't even have 1 million with their gear buffed. I really doubt with in just a few patches blizzard will jump 1-2 million hp.

[KrazyK923]

2 Million hp?! Tanks now don't even have 1 million with their gear buffed. I really doubt with in just a few patches blizzard will jump 1-2 million hp.

Well you see, the people who don't understand and just complain like to pretend because that highly specialized, skilled, geared, and specced DK who used a very specific strategy and soloed the Sha of Fear means everybody can now. Clearly its the end of the World...of Warcraft...again.

[Deleted]

2 Million hp?! Tanks now don't even have 1 million with their gear buffed. I really doubt with in just a few patches blizzard will jump 1-2 million hp.

They need to increase the stats by a lot at the beginning of a new expansion. This is to compensate for the incredibly lowered stat percentage values. As a result, the hp, int, agi and str is increased and since they're not affecting any percentage values, attacks will hit higher and your hp will get a lot higher.

These values are increased more at new expansions than between tiers, since you get increased percentage values at new tiers.

The hp increased by about a third between tier 14 and 15, and it's likely to increase by a third again in 5.4.


I'll make it really simple for you: You have 100 int, 1000 hp, 10% crit, 10% haste and 10% mastery. Your spell's base casting time is 1 sec, and 1% mastery increases the damage by 1% and your spell's base damage is 100% of your intellect. Your stats will increase to perhaps 160 int, 20% crit, 25% haste and 40% mastery at the end of an expansion. This is a huge damage increase which also requires you to get a higher hp pool to avoid PvP imbalances, so now your hp might be as high as 1800.

And now a new expansion arrives. Your secondary stats are lowered to 10% once again, but do you want to feel stronger? Of course you do. That requires an increased amount of intellect to the point where the spells are a bit more powerful than before, even though you only have 10% in all of the secondary stats, which could require an increase as high as 100% if the gear progressed a lot the past expansion, which it has done in MoP (from ilvl 496 normal, to 553(+8 ilvl upgrade) normal. That's quite a big upgrade.

We will do more than twice the damage in 5.4 than we did in 5.0 with BiS gear, we're almost already there.

So, the secondary stats are lowered again in 6.0 to about the same as they were in 5.0. This means that the base damage has to increase by almost the double due to the incredible increase we've had in secondary stats in order for us to feel more powerful than before.

[Baracuda]

There are other threads about this, that are very active.

Item squish in the regard you're asking for won't happen, Blizzard have already stated that they like old content soloing.

They also tried to remove a few zeroes out of every number, but it felt weird.

The exponential scaling in every expansion can still not be removed since it would remove the feel of your character getting stronger. As it is now, you can slightly notice when you get an ilvl upgrade of 20 on a new piece and that's wonderful. You really do notice 1-5% damage increase and that's the way it should be.

The downside is that people are very very bad at math and can't subtract a few zeroes without short circuiting their brains, but odds are that they wouldn't be able to use those lower numbers for anything useful anyways.

You mean like how you feel you become stronger when you replace a legendary with a green item consisting of a shoe tied to a plank?

[Toby451]

Why does it even matter? 1000 hp 1 million.. just leave it as it is..

Fully nax geared tanks in vanilla were what, 8 or 9k?
BC BT/Sunwell tanks - 20k..ish
WOTLK Icecrown hard mode tanks - 40k?
Cataclysm - I don't know, I was pvping didn't pay attention
Mop - 1 million? That's a retarded jump, I agree it's pretty inflated but really does it matter? There's so many other issues they need to iron out before they play with health and damage ratios..

BC about 22k in Sunwell gear stacking stamina on everything.
Tanks had 100k in ICC if I remember correctly.
Cataclysm was around 300k for tanks in Dragon Soul.
MoP I have less than 700k on my monk unbuffed. Ilvl 545.


The jump in HP is right in line with every other expansion, it just seems like more because the numbers are higher.

[Noxina]

In my opinion a item squish would seem weird, we do after all evolve as we level. We become stronger over time, wouldnt it then be weird to get lower stats? I know it's just numbers.. But it just feels wrong. I want my hits to grow more and more for every level and item I upgrade. And so what if my hp go over 1mill? Sounds ok to me.

[Kraenen]

Why does it even matter? 1000 hp 1 million.. just leave it as it is..

Fully nax geared tanks in vanilla were what, 8 or 9k?
BC BT/Sunwell tanks - 20k..ish
WOTLK Icecrown hard mode tanks - 40k?
Cataclysm - I don't know, I was pvping didn't pay attention
Mop - 1 million? That's a retarded jump, I agree it's pretty inflated but really does it matter? There's so many other issues they need to iron out before they play with health and damage ratios..

I feel like the numbers, and thus the impetus for improvement is weakened when they're so insanely inflated

[Deleted]

Personally I don't want to feel stronger, I want to feel like the world is a dangerous place and that I cannot solo an big elite or boss on my own (I don't mean just the Sha or any other solo boss, I mean in general)

I do pull around 40-50 mobs and faceroll them to the ground. It's just too much of too many. Since in MOP there was the trend to macro nuke abilities (trinket, fire elem, wolves, blood fury, ascendance bl etc etc. // pick ur class *hunters*) I really wonder what can they do next? Even more abilities? Even more OPness? I'm not QQing... it's just, everything is bloated... too much of too many -> from items to health pools, to abilities, macros etc... too many instants, too many CCs, too many interrupts, far too less CASTING (PVP wise) so on and so forth. In WOTLK it just seemed more legit (i'm still "human" not a god among trash mobs).

Still, very valid points regarding "just numbers" and the progress of the game. I can't argue with that.

[Deleted]

I don't want to hear about this bullshit any more. Refrain from making such undesirable threads.

[Caladia]

The jump became bigger in Cata and MoP because of new item level systems and because WotLK had 4 tiers. They needed to make players feel stronger every jump in gear levels they got (which wasn't a priority in Vanilla and TBC, which is why the hp levels weren't increased that much). Now with item level increase and such in MoP, the growth is even more exponential than before. 13 item levels have always been a similar increase in stat increase, percentage-wise (if compared within the same expansion).

Actually the jump in health pools is the same reason we jumped so much in TBC. They lowered the stat value of Stamina, so that more Stamina would be found on gear. Which happened again in Cata, which is why it jumped so high again.

Actually, "they're just numbers" works one way only. We need the exponential growth in every expansion, both to prevent stat capping every new expansion and to still have a sense of progress when you get new gear. That's why the base values go up so much, to still make your character stronger in a new expansion while the crit/haste/mastery can go down again.

I disagree, it can work in both directions. Growth is undeniable, that much is certain. Why does it need to be exponential growth? Why can't it just be a normal growth line without shooting so far up that the graph can't show it properly? The answer is, "It doesn't need to." Sure, people like to see big shiny numbers, but that alone doesn't make it a requirement for exponential growth of power.

As for the ability to solo old content, that's really not that hard to solve. Remove the 'boss' flag from bosses that make them +3 levels of the player, regardless of their level. Just make them +3 levels of their original content. Illidan can be level 73, Lich King can be 83. This allows the natural flow of levels and required gear to progress the character past them. However, this is probably to much of the extreme and could make soloing old content too easy. However, numbers are just numbers and they can make it work quite easily.

[Potente]

2 Million hp?! Tanks now don't even have 1 million with their gear buffed. I really doubt with in just a few patches blizzard will jump 1-2 million hp.

Ya. I ran a 5man last week with a warrior tank from illidan and he was over 1mil hp