serious threat problems...

[Deleted]

So i like to think im a decent prot warrior, but we are now muddling through heroic progress (4/13) and im starting to have real threat issues in certain situations..

the other 2 tanks are a Paladin and Druid.. both are so much better at getting snap threat over me its really getting on my grill.

here is my armory - http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ufang/advanced

First off, any sort of trash, i might aswell afk. I could run in first.. get hit first.. start attacking back first. Then either of them will run in pop one of their aoe abilities and the mobs jump to them after a few ticks of whatever it is, im then miles behind on threat with nothing i can do to catch up.. my rotation on pull is > DR+BB followed by thunderclap, mixing in dev/ss/rev depending on procs... only if i am first to attack a boss do i not lose threat.. and that is only because i have misdirects.. they would easily out threat me without them.. dps often overtake me on threat at the start and its outside of a taunt every 7 seconds, theres not a lot i can do if this happens.

I kinda understnad why i have less threat, these 2 tanks can utilise dps stats to up their aggro.. but it seems to me i am doing something wrong also because the gap is massive.. on bosses like horridon.. i sadly get the shittier job of tanking adds on every door, but outside of using mocking banner i am lucky if i can keep everything on me for more than a few seconds.. as we have dps assigned to many different adds at once to deal with inturrupts etc... During our kill just this evening, i was unable to get more than about 30/40k vengence on these adds and often it was lower, this meant i had no real meat behind my attacks so they were being pulled off very easily by the dps, who although just handled it.. complained that i wasnt doing enough threat.

I know im coming off as a whiner but its kinda hard not too. i love the mechanics of the prot warrior.. its great in certain situations. Im untouchable on Hc ji kun (assuming i can get threat back off our druid or paladin). i just feel like im a 2nd rate tank now esp on heroic stuff where our dps are going all out from the start..

am i missing a trick, or is this something i just have to live with.. am i gonna have to start gimping myself to take more damage just to get my threat up?

if you wanna go through our logs and tell me where i might be going wrong (im not in all fights, i feel like i get benched more often than not.. ive not been included in a tortus kill.. or even more than 1hour worth of tries, some of which i was just dps, as our pally tank is just so much better for the fight and we use a monk tank to kite.)

logs - http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/63159/

.... rant over...

. A frustrated warrior

[Hotsforyou]

I always pull Horridon and let him beat on me for vengeance, then before the first adds come out have the other tank taunt him then i do my thing with a lot of vengeance already built up. And to build up more on down between doors, intervene the other tank and take a hit from the boss.

On trash i cant touch any other tank either unless i get in there first with a Dragons Roar and even then they still manage to out aoe threat me. Just the way it is, but on boss fights they all yell at me to back off on threat because they cannot compete single target. Who cares about your trash threat. Slap on some dps gear for trash and pew pew.

Also intervene works wonders for easy vengeance.

[Deleted]

yea, i dont 'care' about trash threat other than the fact it makes me feel useless which puts me in a shitty mood for the raid... i use intervene on bosses.. but theres no way i can do loads of boss threat single target.. they take over if i dont really push.. probably just me

[Kaosadvokit]

probably just me

It's not just you. Prot Warriors deal disgustingly less damage than any of the other tanks. If you and the other tank you're tanking with are equally skilled/geared, there is no case where they wouldn't be able to just take threat back from you if they kept just going full bore after a taunt swap.

[Styl]

It's not just you. Prot Warriors deal disgustingly less damage than any of the other tanks

What?

Ot. You could change some things around, for example 2pc dps tier 15 (Shoulders (exp/mastery) and pants (Crit/mastery reforge the crit) aswell as crafted boots(Mastery/hit) Dps belt from jinrokh (Haste/mastery.Reforge the haste). Could swing the dps meta for the lightning bolts (Imo the tank meta is very .. underwhelming) aswell as for example the dps trinket from primordius (Straight crit > Mastery) for the extra damage to replace your Elegon trinket(Only a ~600 mastery loss). Dps rep cloak(Haste/mastery) or Horridon cloak (Hit/mastery). Tank tier helm (exp/mastery).

You're also over hit cap, and have a hit reforge on your weapon out of mastery, that wouldn't explain threat but figured i'd mention it. (If you take away the hit reforge on your chest you'll be back just over cap. You're also reforging into hit on pieces you could get more mastery on, if you're struggling with hit cap you could swap to hit/mastery gems instead of the stam/masterys /straight stams. *Not really sure on stat weights for 25man*)

I can only really speak from a 10man PoV (3/13 heroic) but I have no threat issues and usually top 4 of our damage done. I don't go out and take extra damage to deal so, just max every global. I take a few dps pieces here and there *the ones I mentioned* because they have more mastery and imho dodge/parry are very lacking compared to mastery(75.60% unbuffed).

Usually a boss for me would just be prepot, charge shieldslam - revenge - thunder clap - shield block - shieldslam - procs /devastate filler. Then once I have my first shieldblock up I use all my dps cooldowns (Bloodbath/Reck/Banner) then dragonroar and shieldslam as priority, revenge on procs and thunderclap on cooldown(I use the glyph for 50% extra) and devastate as fillers, maintaining shield block. Nothing even comes close to threat after that pull, even in pug 25mans with the other good raids on server.

Just my 2c. As said, speaking from only 10 man heroic.

Ps. For Jinrokh, if you're the tank that's getting thrown you can taunt 2 secs until it goes off with a 60 rage shield barrier and it'll soak the melee ( Thus not procing the static wound) so you can keep your vengeance while getting thrown, More DPS that way.

[Deleted]

I decided to take the jikun heroic log as reference, since you mention you do good there and its easier to check single target.

overall you have low ability use.
30% block uptime.
Missed couple bloodbaths, dragon roar, recklessness.
Could hit shieldslam/revenge a lot more.

What i do on taunt swaps: Taunt->HR->SS->Intervene->Revenge->filler/hope for snb
I use intervene just as taunt fixate ends, so even if he rips aggro im ensured that extra vengance boost and can just follow up with taunt.
On pulls: Shout->prepot->charge->SS->Revenge->deva->sit macro->bb+banner+dr/reck->hr->ss->hope for snb/filler
This way i can ensure HR covering recklessness.

Worst case:
ask the paladin to toggle RF on swaps ?
ask a paladin for salv ?
Ask him to slow down a few globals ?

On horridon i never tank any doors cause i whore boss, but i would spec shockwave over dragon roar, with a flow of adds, i'd want 20 second with a stun instead of 60sec and "no" stun, gives you more control imo.

[Deleted]

i actually have 0 access to dps pieces outside of using my coins as we have 2 paladins, 4 warriors (3 dps and me tanking) and 2 dks all fighting for that loot... + the protector tier is the most heavily contested in our raid with said warriors, at least 3 shamans, 2 monks n 2 hunters. I was also told off last night for using my coins for dps gear (i do and have been, n my dps gear is ok..) after a difference of opinion with the GM i dont think il be getting the crafted boots at all... i have a feeling if he notices im using coins on dps gear again i just wont get taken to raid.. anyone looking for a new tanking warrior, ideally horde side?

yea, i didnt think my ability use was low.. i dont know how i could really use shieldslam or revenge a lot more.. what should i be looking for.. because they are on CD most of the time.. i agree with the CD usage.. reck is a tough one as i time it with my skull banner which i am told when to use. The low uptime on shield block could be the fact that firstly half the fight im not tanking (2 tnak fight) some of the time im using barriers instead of blocks due to high stacks of the bleed debuff from Ji-Kun. Is this wrong to do? I am exp capped, but i def cannot comfortably keep block up and weave in extra barriers.. my rage does seem low.

on that note.. am i just not reacting fast enough to the Cds of my SS and revenge.. thus the low rage?

also the hit thing.. i just had a look.. something in my gear must have changed because i am usually around hit cap.. although i was playing around with some other pieces i have (tier head, heroic hit/mastery chest, Do-Tharak and acid spine weapons) and must not have put it back how it was.. il take a look at that now

in 25man sometimes it feels like i should have more stam.. othertimes it feels like its wasted... i could probably completly regem and get up to about 60/70% mastery comfortably and maybe il try it in the week ahead. 25man heroic damage is high.. Being one shot by ji-kun through a last stand never feels good(shield wall not ready.. block ran out just as ability hit.. timer for it is a bit of a gamble sometimes). The meta obviously helps when it lines up, but thats never a gaurentee. im more worried about the uptimes of abilities i can influence.

our other tanks do begrudgingly step back and stop attacking when i take over, but i can tell they dont like it (all rank whores) and it feels stupid that they have too to me.

il use shockwave next time for horridon, using DR as standard only because of the larger amounts of threat i feel i need there.

[Deleted]

Personally i would frown upon raiders who rolled coin for offspec gear if they still had noticeable upgrades left for their mainspec.
Only time i use dps gear is on farm fights when im trying to rank...

Regarding the ability use.
Fight was almost 8 minutes long, bb and dr being 1 minute cooldown but saw 4 and 5 uses.
Shieldslam has a 6 second cooldown (igorning snb procs)
Fight lasted 464 seconds divide it by cd and you get 77 potential uses, You used shieldslam 65 times.
(You should factor in latency, movement/flyin, snb procs etc, but just easy illustration)

Shieldblock, i know its a 2 tank fight, and its debatable if you should save 2 stacks going into a taunt swap, personally I save 1ish lol.
I had 51% uptime on our kill yd, but mainly your not getting full use out of heavy repercussions glyph. Its a big part why your dps is so low.
If you struggle with infected talons, ask for drood symbiosis, helps reduce stacks and if really lucky reset it. You should always have something up for talon..

I dont even gem that much mitigation as 10man tank, go all in stamina.
red: exp/stam
yellow: mast/stam
blue: stam

Also check up on your reforges, do you have reforgelite ?
Cause your reforging parry instead of dodge, and overall looks weird.
You probably just forgot to switch after horridon but tclap glyph is horrible as you rarely need to provide the debuff

With the add flow you wont be able to catch all of them in a dragon roar, i have no math on it but my guess is shockwave provides more threat in addition to control.

[Deleted]

i put the TC glyph in earlier when i was playing around with something.. i also only just changed all my gems and reforges to what you see.. it was different from last night. I was going off AMR.. i have loads of parry but not a huge amount of dodge.. so yea, i was blindly doing what i was told there. il have a look and see what reforgelite suggests. i used to use it, rebuilt ui and never put it back in.

on ji-kun theres very little reason for me to be using shield block when not tanking as im out soaking pools a lot of the time, so again, using barrier to deal with that damage.

with the coins, yea ok.. maybe i should be using them for tank upgrades, but as they go.. they drop pretty reguarly in 25man with far less competition. and the upgrades are not that large, but sometimes im asked to dps to cover peoples afk and i like to be in a position that in not gimping the raid. Thats my arguement on that one.. and my survivability is not an issue.. my threat is, which as you point out, is probably more to do with me hitting the wrong buttons at the wrong times.. and not enough (i am using every global, but probably more/too many devs and TC.

[Deleted]

i put the TC glyph in earlier when i was playing around with something.. i also only just changed all my gems and reforges to what you see.. it was different from last night. I was going off AMR.. i have loads of parry but not a huge amount of dodge.. so yea, i was blindly doing what i was told there. il have a look and see what reforgelite suggests. i used to use it, rebuilt ui and never put it back in.

on ji-kun theres very little reason for me to be using shield block when not tanking as im out soaking pools a lot of the time, so again, using barrier to deal with that damage.

I looked at amr and on the hit/exp build they put parry/dodge equal, i would edit dodge to 0.5 instead, make sure to tick the 'enable atleast mode'.
I made my own weights in reforgelite, it just tends to be more accurate reforges vs amr. (D=1, P=15, Mast=45, exp=50, hit=51)

Probably space issues on 25man when i think about it, but 10man dont soak pools at all and dps is higher priority. :P

[Deleted]

yea, i dont think we ever got close to the enrage.. the focus on 25man is getting the groups right for the nests.. the pools do take up a lot of room when you think he spawns i think 5 each feed.

i put reforgelite in.. used the stock weights for control (moved hit and expertise above mastery).. it did its thing. im sure its fine... spent some time in lfrs really working on getting more ss out. will probaby take a bit of work with it tbh.. on your average boss fight.. what sort of % uptime on shieldblock should i be looking at 50/60? got a log of your recent exploits i can browse?

[Deleted]

Just the way it is, but on boss fights they all yell at me to back off on threat because they cannot compete single target.

Bold statement, my monk cotank regulary pulls off at least 50% more damage than i do*. But i guess the problem is your current progression. You're 1/13 hc with a monk tank that clearly doesn't know how to gear properly (his trinkets... + Zen Sphere???) and is lacking 15 ilvl compared to my threat contender (lots of free dps stats for them while we only gain some strength, nothing else). Wait for the other tanks (especially monk, dk and druid) go get their heroic thunderforged weapons while we gain nothing besides stronger white hits and some dot ticks out of it and see how they run away on aggro.

* because he generally pulls of more i tend to the waterboy jobs to help the raid but on fights with no "main"tank like Megaera or Durumu it becomes clearly visible and it somewhat saddens me to be honest.

Could swing the dps meta for the lightning bolts (Imo the tank meta is very .. underwhelming)

dps meta adds ~ 5-7% dmg for me while tanking meta adds almost +10% physical damage reduction on average. Unless you need the tank damage there's no reason to ever go with the dps meta especially on a warrior tank to be perfectly clear. Even after acquiring the 2 piece prot bonus you will still feel like the most helpless tanking class after hitting your active mitigation buttons... and it's (the meta) nothing that will really help you with the aggro.

What WILL help you or more importantly your co tank is a power/weakaura whatever that tells them (and you) when somebody else taunted the boss. That should be a clear sign to not hit your buttons like a retard because they lighten up or you've achieved a new vengeance record but hold back for some moments... because that's your f*cking job first and formost. Watch Omen after that point and play carefully, the tank won't taunt unless it's necessary (or it's LFR haha ~~). Voila, threat problems on sensitive situations solved.

edit: HR glyph + pooling rage for swap and using intervene some seconds before the taunt should be a nobrainer, without those you'll be clearly lost on the threat race.

I wouldn't bother to much with shieldblock uptime percentages, that depends on how you play a boss and what (+number of) healers your raid uses. But you can check your reaction time to sword'n'board procc & ultimatum and calculate the numbers of shield slams you should have got out in that fight and maybe think of reasons why you couldn't get close to that number.

[Styl]

Honestly, with the selection of heroic (535) belts (and a lot of the plate pieces) one is dodge/parry and the other is haste/mastery. Imho dodge/parry are so weak compared to mastery. I'd take a 'dps' piece that has more mastery over a tank piece with dodge/parry or dodge/expertise etc anyday. Heroic Jinrokh's 'dps' belt is just so much better itemized then the dodge/parry rubbish. Considering crit block is still amazing ( I have ~87% chance to crit block raid buffed) compared to dodge and parry, I personally prefer items with higher mastery even if they have a dps stat (Example is the dps tier pants, mastery/crit vs the tank tier hit/parry or lei shens dodge/mastery (I'd normally take Lei Shens over it but i'm only doing normal Lei Shen but have access to heroic tier pants). With a high shieldblock uptime (While tanking, obviously) it's better survivability then dodge/parry Imho.

Dps meta for me adds ~7-10% of heroic fights, ~5% on normals. Any amount of extra damage, if it be from the crit raiting or the lightning bolt will indeed help you with aggro. Considering critical strike raiting is the biggest dps increase for prot warriors after 15% expertise/hit cap. Lightning bolts can be pretty decent sized too, best I've seen is ~750k on heroic Jinrokh.(Personally I just find the tank meta lacklustre because its only physical damage, and with ~87% crit block I already don't take a lot from melee swings. I have a second helm that I use with the tank meta for hard hitting melee fights, though.) [This isn't to say you should be forced to use the dps meta for threat, your threat is low mainly because of low ability use, imho]