WotLK to MoP: A Trend Analysis of Raiding Difficulty.

[Iso]

That's a good question. Short term I'm not sure it will. Long term potentially it will stop the bleeding. In the long term if normal raiding is more accessible in terms of difficulty people will form social bonds that keep them in the game or at least you hope they do. I got lucky and found a group of players I like and that's why I stuck with the game. That's the point of beer league. I met these guys in wotlk. If I met them in ToT probably wouldn't have stuck around. In the long term if normal raiding is more accessible from a difficulty perspective I think it's fair to say more people will try it. The more people try it the more bonds they make and the more they tell their friends and then their friends tell two friends and those friends tell friends and the community grows. This is also how people discover they are hardcore raiders incidentally (or used to) when they found that the normal mode was easy for them and they moved up. Now they just get crushed in normals and say fuck it.

It makes alot of sense, but there's always going to be a group that will feel somewhat left out. Say you do lower normals to invite more people in, wich would most likely be the case. The gap between normals and heroic will now be even larger, and fit more people.

It's hard thing to balance, as outside of LFR, wich honestly isn't what anyone who might be interested in raiding should be looking for, you only have two options. One is always going to be very difficult, and the other has to be both welcoming to people who want 'proper' raiding but at the same time difficult enough to warrant a challenge for the majority of people who wants to raid.

In my opinion this a playerbase problem. I'll play the vanilla card here, I'm sorry, there is no reason why you can't do normals or even heroics of the previous tier as your source of raiding content if normal current tier is above your comfort zone. This was the norm back in the day, you had guilds just starting MC whilst other more experience guilds were breezing through AQ. I just don't see why the second a patch is out, even if you didn't step into the previous this, it's already deemd "outdated".
I had a friend of mine back in TBC whom I got into the game, he found himself a guild and started working on karazhan and up while my guild were working on Illidan. And he was very content with that, he felt no need to go straight to the top and struggle to get into BT from the getgo.
Obviously the way gearing works now you can't really compare it side by side, but I'm just curious why so many people whom haven't evne finished normals of the last tier want to get a foothold in ToT already.

[Deleted]

Actually, we immediately replaced them with a friend of a friend who barely did more DPS due to a much lower ilevel, but DPSed the correct targets and didn't keel over dead, instead of running around like a chicken with their head cut off. That was enough to have a repeat Heroic Council kill.

The difference between the poor player and the replacement is that the replacement actively tried to improve themselves, rather than ignoring suggestions and target calls. If a player is looking to improve and eager to learn, I have absolutely no issue with them. Most people, that I've interacted with anyway, aren't like that anymore. One of our last recruits blamed low ilevel for low DPS. Well, his ilevel grew to match our other raiders, and guess what... he still did horrible DPS. Because he was barely using his level 90 talent(s), which are a substantial damage increase. This is the community WoW has now. Nerfing content won't make people use their talents/spells better.

Let's assume that nothing is going to make them better.

So the next logical question would be - why deny them content?

[Deleted]

Let's assume that nothing is going to make them better.

This is a disgusting premise. Humans get better at things.

[Deleted]

It makes alot of sense, but there's always going to be a group that will feel somewhat left out. Say you do lower normals to invite more people in, wich would most likely be the case. The gap between normals and heroic will now be even larger, and fit more people.

It's hard thing to balance, as outside of LFR, wich honestly isn't what anyone who might be interested in raiding should be looking for, you only have two options. One is always going to be very difficult, and the other has to be both welcoming to people who want 'proper' raiding but at the same time difficult enough to warrant a challenge for the majority of people who wants to raid.

In my opinion this a playerbase problem. I'll play the vanilla card here, I'm sorry, there is no reason why you can't do normals or even heroics of the previous tier as your source of raiding content if normal current tier is above your comfort zone. This was the norm back in the day, you had guilds just starting MC whilst other more experience guilds were breezing through AQ. I just don't see why the second a patch is out, even if you didn't step into the previous this, it's already deemd "outdated".
I had a friend of mine back in TBC whom I got into the game, he found himself a guild and started working on karazhan and up while my guild were working on Illidan. And he was very content with that, he felt no need to go straight to the top and struggle to get into BT from the getgo.
Obviously the way gearing works now you can't really compare it side by side, but I'm just curious why so many people whom haven't evne finished normals of the last tier want to get a foothold in ToT already.

Because it's impossible or very difficult to get consistent groups for.

Very few groups of players will busy themselves with chaining through outdated content in order to get to the new stuff.

It didn't happen in vanilla, it didn't happen in TBC and it's not happening now. What actually happens (and what actually happened in TBC) is that any guild that tries to march through the whole progression process rapidly loses it's best players to guild who are doing the latest stuff. Which then makes life harder and so the group never progresses.

Now you might argue the indvidualist screed of "oh well fuck em, the good players should move on" but the next thing you'll be moaning about is a lack of server community.....

---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 12:15 PM ----------

This is a disgusting premise. Humans get better at things.

Then you better tell Voxtree to stop kicking people who are just waiting to improve with the right incentive.

Either people can improve (and Voxtree is impatient) or they can't (and wow needs designing with that in mind.)

[voxTree]

In my opinion this a playerbase problem. I'll play the vanilla card here, I'm sorry, there is no reason why you can't do normals or even heroics of the previous tier as your source of raiding content if normal current tier is above your comfort zone. This was the norm back in the day, you had guilds just starting MC whilst other more experience guilds were breezing through AQ. I just don't see why the second a patch is out, even if you didn't step into the previous this, it's already deemd "outdated".
I had a friend of mine back in TBC whom I got into the game, he found himself a guild and started working on karazhan and up while my guild were working on Illidan. And he was very content with that, he felt no need to go straight to the top and struggle to get into BT from the getgo.
Obviously the way gearing works now you can't really compare it side by side, but I'm just curious why so many people whom haven't evne finished normals of the last tier want to get a foothold in ToT already.

Don't forget that Vanilla, and to an extent BC, was packed to the brim with hardcore EQ players who migrated over. Most of them were in their late teens to early twenties at that time. Hard, grindy content was okay for that crowd. They didn't call for nerfs unless a boss was outright broken.

The EQer's have long since left WoW for careers and families. There are very few of us left who have played since Vanilla, as most people in the game now started late WotLK/Cataclysm, when Blizzard began to implement nerf auras to raids and easier, casually-geared content. That's all this new WoW generation has ever known; nerfs, catch-up mechanics, etc. Like you mentioned, in Vanilla/BC it was common for people to start at the bottom and work their way up to endgame, that was something many of us enjoyed back then because it gave us goals.

When ToT was released, I recall dozens of threads popping up complaining about normal mode difficulty, all from guilds who hadn't even touched ToES or cleared HoF. You cannot expect to make a leap into 522 ilevel content when you haven't even set foot in ToES. Meanwhile, had these guilds gone back and spent a few more weeks in prior instances, they wouldn't have had a lot of trouble in ToT. Instead they hopped in face first and bashed their heads against a wall while crying for nerfs.

That's the issue. The playerbase does not want to work. They want to hit 90 and immediately clear Lei Shen on normal. Then they get bored and quit the game because they lost their carrot. Working for the carrot is frustrating, so they quit. Getting that carrot too soon is boring, so they quit. Catch-22.

It's honestly an endless debate that will exist as long as WoW has a casual/hardcore crowd. There will never be compromise.

[Erolian]

Its not if they can or can't. It is if they want to or don't want to.

[voxTree]

Let's assume that nothing is going to make them better.

So the next logical question would be - why deny them content?

Because as a progression guild, we don't carry people.

[Pua]

I've added Ghostcrawler's commentary in the opening post, and will continue to do so if he says any more on the topic.

[Deleted]

Because as a progression guild, we don't carry people.

Right, so all the people you have kicked. Imagine they are now all together in one clusterfuck of a raid group (probably are!)

Why deny them content?

What do you get out of other people not being able to raid?

[Iso]

Because it's impossible or very difficult to get consistent groups for.

Very few groups of players will busy themselves with chaining through outdated content in order to get to the new stuff.

It didn't happen in vanilla, it didn't happen in TBC and it's not happening now. What actually happens (and what actually happened in TBC) is that any guild that tries to march through the whole progression process rapidly loses it's best players to guild who are doing the latest stuff. Which then makes life harder and so the group never progresses.

Now you might argue the indvidualist screed of "oh well fuck em, the good players should move on" but the next thing you'll be moaning about is a lack of server community....

It did happen, atleast on the larger servers. And if your argument against a mindset like that is guild hoping...then I don't know what to say.
Yes, it's hard to get a consistent group like that going, because as I said, it's a playerbase issues, the options are there and have always been there, there's limit to how much handholding can be done. You can even x-realm old raids now, and with stuff like openraid and whatnot there's really no excuses, people just need to throw in the effort.

[voxTree]

Right, so all the people you have kicked. Imagine they are now all together in one clusterfuck of a raid group (probably are!)

Why deny them content?

What do you get out of other people not being able to raid?

They can see this content you seem to cherish in LFR. That's what it's for, right?

[Deleted]

Unfortunately, most of those players wailing either did not complete ICC in heroic mode or didn't turn off the buff in normal or heroic so of course it was "too easy" for some. Perhaps the real design error here was to have the buff the default instead of needing to talk to the appropriate npc to turn it on. What it did allow was for just about any player regardless of the quality of their internet connection or computer, or personal skill level to make some progress into the raid and see some personal improvements for their characters. (A lot of casual players may have absolutely no time or interest in improving their game play and in all honesty, it's their dime.) That's what this game is all about, right?

Currently, 10s are tuned too stringently and are far too unforgiving to be an entry level for new players, new raiders, or for strict casuals. LFR was added as a necessary entry level that 10s originally fulfilled but is far too easy and does not teach good raiding skills in the way it would need to in order to be a pipeline into normal raiding. Seems to me the original system of easier 10s and more challenging 25s were a better solution but it's not coming back. With a declining population and so many 25s having become 10s it would be a destructive change now.

Perhaps an entry level 10 on its own lockout with loot somewhere between LFR and normal would be in order. I think it's imperative that it have a non-shared lockout so it would be a good mechanism for more experienced players to be able to come along and help without jeopardizing their own normal/heroic runs.

Maybe with declining subs it would be time to be bold and go back admit mistakes and return to a system that worked better. Returning to the wrath system and removing LFR.

[Deleted]

It did happen, atleast on the larger servers. And if your argument against a mindset like that is guild hoping...then I don't know what to say.
Yes, it's hard to get a consistent group like that going, because as I said, it's a playerbase issues, the options are there and have always been there, there's limit to how much handholding can be done. You can even x-realm old raids now, and with stuff like openraid and whatnot there's really no excuses, people just need to throw in the effort.

Well, exactly. It's never been easier for a good player to abandon the less good to their fate.

And the next thing you'll be doing is complaining about server community, lack of. Probably the best thing about TBC was that in order to get anything done you were almost certainly looking at helping someone else learn to play. now? Fuck em, goodbye. ...and raid participation is crashing and hardcores are bewildered because they can't find anyone good to play with as easily as before. (Hint - it's because the normal guilds who used to train your raiders can't do that job for you now.)

---------- Post added 2013-05-31 at 12:27 PM ----------

They can see this content you seem to cherish in LFR. That's what it's for, right?

That wasn't what i asked. I asked why you wanted to deny them content.

Why do you?

[voxTree]

Maybe with declining subs it would be time to be bold and go back admit mistakes and return to a system that worked better. Returning to the wrath system and removing LFR.

(Blah I ate my own post) As much as I hate to admit it, that would probably work. There would be a lot of kicking and screaming from both LFR divas and hardcore raiders, but it would probably work.

That wasn't what i asked. I asked why you wanted to deny them content.

Why do you?

You just don't like the answer. We deny them content because as players, they are not heroic raid material.

A good analogy for this would be like taking a kid who just got into basketball and throwing him onto a professional team. Of course he'll do bad, and he'll massively hinder the team in the process of learning. The team could train him a bit, but in the end that kid just needs to grow by working his way up from the bottom and developing the experience the other players gained over their careers. You can't take a novice and throw them into an experienced role.

Most progression guilds don't carry people to "provide them with content". They boot them and get players that are already on, or close to, their level. If the booted players want to see heroic content, then they need to join some normal mode/early heroic guilds and work up to a high-end level.

[dejaa]

Maybe with declining subs it would be time to be bold and go back admit mistakes and return to a system that worked better. Returning to the wrath system and removing LFR.

One thing I've never understood is just why this development team and its collection of sycophants repudiates Wrath just about every chance they get. It worked, it was fun, and sub numbers were at their peak. All I hear is it was bad, it was too easy, etc., and yet the amount of audible player discontent has continuously increased since then even as sub numbers have consistently dropped. Numbers don't lie.

[Deleted]

Nice charts but... there is no benchmark to which those statistics could be compared. We can't see number of people finishing specific raid's encounters in the certain time frame. Obviously, there are several factors worth considering and a point of reference is a must.

I've started playing MoP after the long break from WoW. It was already late in the expansion, so i've decided to join a random social guild, which could possibly help me with getting used to the fresh environment. It wasn't long after i moved on, changed my guild to be able to participate in the end-game content more frequently. However, i was able to taste this very low level of raiding, face its issues and deal with its limitations.

Basing on my experience, it's all about people staggering to learn basics what prevents guilds from progression. You don't have to be perfect to finish T15, nor infallible in terms of executing tactics. My guild was able to kill Lei Shen with 3 players dead in the last phase and a few additional expendable adds spawning in between. However, every one of us tried hard to make everything as ideal as possible. And that's the reason behind shown numbers. Some don't have certain amount of dedication needed to wipe for a few hours to learn the encounter. Some don't have willingnes to study their class, how it works and what abilities should be used in certain conditions. Some just don't care about "DON'T STAY IN DA FIREEE!" rule.

And that might be the LFR's fault. Difficulty level between this and normal raid is just too much for players.

[Deleted]

Maybe with declining subs it would be time to be bold and go back admit mistakes and return to a system that worked better. Returning to the wrath system and removing LFR.

Or...

1.) Relegate LFR to the previous tier's content. Remove the "Raidfinder" tag and effectively keep loot at previous tier ilvl, giving normal mode raiders the ability to go back and pick up whatever transmog pieces they missed from the tier while it was current. Tiers are released so frequently now that it would hardly be an issue and promote more of a realm community to see current content.

2.) 10/25man normal modes are made considerably easier with "hardmode triggers" on each boss. Would promote pugs and ways to see the instance with an organised/"beer league" type group while keeping higher ilvl items and achievements for the groups that want to attempt the bosses on a higher difficulty. Would also stop people hitting a brick wall on specific encounters during linear tiers.

3.) Heroic modes are unchanged and still provide the pinnacle of raiding difficulty.

[Lei]

A good analogy for this would be like taking a kid who just got into basketball and throwing him onto a professional team. Of course he'll do bad, and he'll massively hinder the team in the process of learning. The team could train him a bit, but in the end that kid just needs to grow by working his way up from the bottom and developing the experience the other players gained over their careers. You can't take a novice and throw them into an experienced role.

In my country we got a handball team with old players, and they rather take an another old player from some Scandinavian country than to take a junior from the junior team. The whole handball team got old, they should go retire, but there is no one to put in place when they're gone. They try to fulfill the spots with people who also should go retire in their own country (as in their country they are not good enough now, they are old), but we rather pay fortunes to them to come to us (well, the sponsor: hello, Audi!) than to pay to train the juniors. Good game.

Anyways. yeah.


But honestly, think about ICC normals and ICC heroics, and compare them with ToT normals and HCs. In ICC heroic difficulty meant good execution of the fight, OR dps race OR heavy healing, but not like in ToT: execution + heavy dps + heavy healing + selfcare (healthstones/personal cooldowns as dps etc etc) also in ICC a dead guy would be okay. In ToT? Especially in 10man? Forget it.

[dejaa]

Like you mentioned, in Vanilla/BC it was common for people to start at the bottom and work their way up to endgame, that was something many of us enjoyed back then because it gave us goals.

I was there, it was ugly and filled with drama. No one ever worked their way up, they just hopped from guild to guild as they got gear to the next highest that had the content you needed on farm. Rinse and repeat. There was poaching and drama because no one wanted to run the previous tier raids to gear up otherwise good players. Oh, you should have heard the fury when one player hopped to a top level guild and got 5-6 pieces of loot in one night, then hopped to another guild the next day... happened all the time and there was much futile raging.

That's the issue. The playerbase does not want to work

I don't believe that. I think perhaps the rewards are not worth the effort.

It's honestly an endless debate that will exist as long as WoW has a casual/hardcore crowd. There will never be compromise.

Eventually, the financial imperative of declining subscriptions will force a compromise. The minority will be unhappy. Maybe, everyone will be unhappy.

[InDecisive]

Personally, I think they need an extra difficulty mode. Normal modes are too hard for organised, competent, but casual guilds, and heroics are brutal even for leading progression raiders (which is fine for them but horrible for the middle-ground guilds who get stuck at the start). I'd say, reduce the difficulty of normal so that any decently organised and geared group should be able to get to the end - works for laid back guilds who don't want a faceroll but don't want to get stuck on Horridon for an eternity either (probably doable by a decent, patient pug group a while into the tier). Then reduce heroic so that it's hard enough to challenge a good group but isn't prohibitively difficult like some of the ones we have right now, so then you've got a difficulty for raid groups that are reasonably dedicated but not hardcore to make progress on. And then add a new legendary (or whatever) difficulty for the world-first chaser level raiders, as hard (or harder) as today's heroic modes.

Having four sub-tiers of gear would be a bit problematic, so have legendary share ilvl with heroic (differentiate them with a tag for prestige purposes) and maybe reduce the gap between the different difficulties a bit.