There is no problem with that but you realize that you need the easy accessible content even if it is just to generate recruits for the content you prefer.
Sure in the case of firelands it wasn't gradual - it was just a flat nerf. The latter is my perception - every raid I previously played seemed way easier in former normal gear.
Last edited by cFortyfive; 2013-05-30 at 04:46 PM.
Well, I disagree 100% LFR has hurt the game on so many levels and its not really considered "raiding". LFR lets a lot more people get gear very easily, it is really not about seeing content. I call bullshit on that. That being said, Blizz cannot get rid of it now...its too late and the subs work ethic expectations has changed too much.
I agree with you that LFR is also a huge drain on the normal raiding community
"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
"Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"
no.....nerfs have been in place in icc...you could turn them off if you wanted but there were nerfs in place all the way through that content. sorry if i won't look at numbers that contain nerfs as it null and voids this whole discussion. sorry if that bursts your ToT is too extreme bubble but its fact. go back and get numbers pre-nerf and you will have a case. but numbers that contain nerf kills are not. Also timeframe...it would have to be the first 2 months of the content as well, not 4 months or 5 months or 6 months. as obviously guilds will kill stuff more the longer its out. these are VERY IMPORTANT NEEDED things to even make this valid imo. otherwise its all trash statistics.....
correct me if im wrong but didnt lich king heroic get killed AFTER the 5% nerf? if that is the case as I think it is...that would mean since H Lei Shen has been killed pre-nerf that ToT would be easier?
from MMO.......
Paragon was the first guild in the world to defeat the Lich King in 25-Heroic mode! The 5% buff was used and it definitely confirms that guilds do not need the 10% version to kill him.
also the 10 man heroic was killed the week prior to paragons 25 man
Last edited by pallyopness; 2013-05-30 at 04:54 PM.
"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
"Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"
You mean that we should nerf tot with a stacking debuff, I think.
yes, lets look at the final bosses on heroic to decide about general normal mode difficulty and it's effect on raider attrition.correct me if im wrong but didnt lich king heroic get killed AFTER the 5% nerf? if that is the case as I think it is...that would mean since H Lei Shen has been killed pre-nerf that ToT would be easier?
lolzzz
--- To the OP - sterling work, sir. I salute ye.
The OP doesn't seem to realize that the reason more people did the last tier of the last 2 expansions is due to the increasing nerf. He seems to think that something has fundamentally changed in the system from then to now.
In fact it has not. Naxx, Ulduar and ToC were left alone, without a stacking increase (though there were, of course, hotfixes) during their tier. T11 was left alone until after Firelands was out.
For the last 2 expansions the only raids to be nerfed by a significant amount during their lifecycle were the final tiers. Why? so people can finish the story. You can't go back and complete ICC with the next tier's gear in the same way you could go back and complete Ulduar with ICC gear. By the next tier you're in a different expansion and it's not the same.
The question is whether or not this is a GOOD thing. I think it is a good thing to have harder normal and heroic modes and an easy LFR. I get the content I want, they get the content they want.
People join guilds to hang out, as a result, instead of solely a way to raid. I think that's a good thing too. I'm in a guild of people I like, and we like to raid. If you don't want to find a new guild to raid, but still want to see the content, well there's LFR, and it's much easier to get into than pugs were in the past.
no injin....i think ToT should not be nerfed until new tiers are out if they really NEED to....leave it alone in progression id say...its not too hard and any easier would be plain boring
Its not a matter of "raiding is too hard now". Its a number of factors. And former raiders will have different views as to why its going down hill.
Personally it has nothing to do with how "hard it is". The fights aren't hard, they are tedious. 10 fucking minute fights? They supplemented time for mechanics. Just make the fight take longer, that is hard right? Well sort of, its harder because wiping 8 minutes in for the 5th time makes me not want to do this any more. Wiping 2-3 minutes in 30 times wasn't that bad. Yea, you got sick of watching the same player screw up the same mechanic the same way every time. But it was a quicker reset and go.
There are other reasons I quit raiding outside of my weekly run throughs of LFR but the point is there are a bunch of reasons why raiding has dropped off. Its not simply less people have killed x bosses so its obviously harder. Thats not the case or at least thats not a complete answer.
T7 and T9 (Naxx and ToC normal) were easy raid tiers. They came pre-nerfed, you might say.
T8 was actually fairly hard. For some reason -- perhaps because people were brickwalling on it -- Blizzard rushed out patch 3.2 less than four months after 3.1.
T12 was nerfed 20% before it ended.For the last 2 expansions the only raids to be nerfed by a significant amount during their lifecycle were the final tiers. Why?
I think the experience shows that when raids are hard, fewer people do them. MoP normal mode raids are rather hard, so the normal mode raiding population has crashed. People don't like frustration and failure. This does not require a PhD in game psychology to understand.
I don't think it's a good thing for the game overall, or for the performance of the game as an entertainment product. In fact, I consider the design philosopy leading to harder raids to be obsolete. The great majority of players recognize it and won't play along. I believe the inclusion of difficult raids damages the level of attachment non-hardcore players have to the game, even if they never attempt those raids themselves.The question is whether or not this is a GOOD thing. I think it is a good thing to have harder normal and heroic modes and an easy LFR. I get the content I want, they get the content they want.
Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-05-30 at 05:06 PM.
"There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
"The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
"Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"
I never said I blame LFR for this. In fact, IMO, it's quite the opposite, which is why I said I dreaded to see what these numbers would have been were it not for LFR. Just throwing a possible thought process out there:
With LFR: "Holy hell these normal modes are freaking retarded...eff this, I'll just do LFR"
Without LFR: "Holy hell these normal modes are freaking retarded...think I'll go pvp, or do pet battles...meh eff that I'll just quit"
Such thought process does not apply to everyone, obviously.
My guild basically called it quits over T14 due to lack of motivated players to continue progression. The game is bleeding ATM.
Huh, i thought T12 was nerfed after DS was out, my mistake.
That doesn't mean they quit, we didn't see these kinds of massive player losses during Wrath or Cata. It's not why we're seeing them now.
I contend that LFR has allowed the non-hardcore players to have more to do with end-game raiding than ever before.
I still don't buy that normal mode raiding has crashed, these numbers could support that, but they don't account for the number of people who cleared/began to clear bosses in ICC or DS BEFORE the stacking nerf came out.
I think we are probably at a similar level to before, with vastly more people participating in LFR than ever raided normals.