WotLK to MoP: A Trend Analysis of Raiding Difficulty.

[Glorious Leader]

Exactly. Which is why I brought up the poor recruitment = less progression view a few pages back.

Finding quality raiders is hard nowadays. We've gone through a shaman who didn't use their Ascendance/other CDs properly, and when they did they spammed Lightning Bolt in Ascendance as elemental (they also maxxed out at around 80k DPS in ~510 gear). We had a hunter who had no idea how to AOE as survival... apparently Multishot is a hard concept. Had a mage who barely used his level 90 talents and had no idea what Ice Block was. I can go on and on about other applicants who outright failed miserably. People who have no idea what a hit cap is, etc.

People are just lazy now. You can nerf the content into the ground and they will still probably have problems with it. To be completely honest, if you haven't cleared normal ToT by now then your guild is either happy with it's easy-going pace, your raider don't care, or your leaders aren't very good and you're using horrible strategy.

Downtime between attempts also plays a factor in casual progression. Depending on the run back, my guild pulls again within 3 minutes generally. Some of the casual raids I've seen sit around and tolerate random AFKs between wipes, often taking a large chunk out of their raid night.

Bottom line is there's a million factors in play when it comes to ToT progression. I think it's silly that casual raiders are calling for nerfs. Work harder, friends. Put some effort in. I'm fairly certain that Blizzard doesn't design raids (outside of LFR) for friends and family guilds who refuse to read up on the content and refuse to discipline their raiders.

Yes dad. If I work hard enough will I get my allowance this week? I mean what kind of fucking feedback is this for a developer. You think tmmrw GC can tweet out hey all you zombies who left wtf is wrong with you? just work harder and pay your fucking sub again btw. In principle everything you say is wrong, in practice (even if youy accept the principle as correct) it's empty and in the long run a death sentence for raiding. Well raiding outside of lfr.

[Darmalus]

Can't really see what you want out of WoW frankly, you don't care about gear and just want to "see the content" but complain about the fact that Blizzard doesn't somehow force you to keep repeating LFR or raiding? You kind of seem either like you're playing the wrong game or you're straight up unpleasable.

I think what he is saying (because I subscribe to a similar philosophy) is that I run LFR over and over again because I know that in a few months a new level of LFR will be out with an ilvl requirement. I enjoy the hell out of the content in LFR, so I really want to jump right in when it opens, motivating me to try my luck each week.

However, SoO will be the last LFR of the expansion. I'll run is 2-3 times so I can glory in the art and monsters, but I don't need to grind gear for anything. After SoO is the expansion gear reset. I'll waltz up to the level 90 Adventuring Supplies vendor and sell all my old gear and pick up a new set of whatever the next expansions leveling gear is (assuming my current LFR gear is inferior, who knows).

I'm not unhappy about this, I love the content! But aside from whatever tokens I need to grind for the legendary, I won't have any reason to run SoO with the same dedication I run ToT.

I think what he's saying is Blizzard may see strange new behavior, where the "LFR Crowd" runs SoO at least once, but very little after that compared to previous tiers. It kinda reminds me of High School "Senioritis" where students stop caring because they are leaving in a few months anyway and have already been accepted to a college or have a job lined up.

[voxTree]

Yes dad. If I work hard enough will I get my allowance this week? I mean what kind of fucking feedback is this for a developer. You think tmmrw GC can tweet out hey all you zombies who left wtf is wrong with you? just work harder and pay your fucking sub again btw. In principle everything you say is wrong, in practice (even if youy accept the principle as correct) it's empty and in the long run a death sentence for raiding. Well raiding outside of lfr.

Are you honestly suggesting that people who don't know how to AOE, don't use their CDs, and have no idea how to play their class/spec in it's very basic form, deserve to have a full normal mode clear and potentially a load of heroic clears handed to them on a silver platter?

[Glorious Leader]

Are you honestly suggesting that people who don't know how to AOE, don't use their CDs, and have no idea how to play their class/spec in it's very basic form, deserve to have a full normal mode clear and potentially a load of heroic clears handed to them on a silver platter?

What I'm suggesting is apparently to complex for you to understand because I've said it a million times by now. If it's the terms you listed are easier to understand then yes that's what I'm suggesting.

Apparently increasing complexity of posts cannot be sustained either...

[Deleted]

I actually did post raid logs. We had already killed Horridon by that time though. Were already 11/12 and I don't need or want your help. Effectively though the root of what your saying is that people don't just try enough. They'd rather complain on forums. Well I find that to be far more insulting (it suggests that they are in fact lazy and just entitled and whiners) and also wrong. They quit raiding. They don't come on forums to complain or to get help. They simple leave. It's patronizing in the extreme even if you don't intend it to be that way. hell it's fucking NORMAL. When I get normal is D3 or SC2 I didn't go to a website or forum for it. I just beat the game because well ITS NORMAL. God NOrmal sc2 holds your hand so fucking much. Jesus. I know you want to deflect away from raid difficulty well you can't or at least you can't for much longer. Say it with me now the trend of increasing complexity and difficulty is unsustainable. A correction will have to be made.

You don't need my help, guess it's better to be stuck on Normal Lei Shen than ask for help eh?

What you say about the "trend of increasing complexity and difficulty is unsustainable", I actually hear you put another angle on this whole matter. An angle that I can understand from a more overall view point and not just from someone complaining after having failed on Normal bosses.

I don't play any other games than WoW and thus I can't and won't discuss the difficulty of the games you compare WoW to. I did however try D3, bought the Annual Pass and cleared D3 within the week - not even playing full time, cause we were still raiding and studies etc. But how many people stopped playing D3 after they reached max level? How many people said it was too easy and didn't offer enough content for them to continue playing?

Isn't that the flipside of nerfing raids? That everyone able to work on Heroics will suddenly feel that the game becomes way too easy and thus just quit? I get that you and others think, that people have quit due to the opposite - the raids being too hard. And as such one could argue, that if too easy and too hard cost subs, why did the devs then decide for the hard content over the easy?

But I say this again, how do you (or I, or anyone else for that matter) know exactly why all the people stopped playing? You see some people here on MMO and the official forums saying why, but those people are the minority. Most people don't say anything about why they stopped playing, there's likely more than just one reason. People grow older, get jobs, get married, lose interest or don't have time. You can't just assume that all the lost subs are unhappy players who couldn't defeat Normal bosses.

But lets just play a little with that thought. If too easy and too hard will both cause a decline in subs, why not try to find a middle ground? Why not try to find alternatives to those players, in stead of ruining the fun of others? Maybe LFR needs a change, put in the same mechanics as on Normal, so that people will learn them in LFR before going into Normals. Yes, that would cause another issue - LFR becoming a wipe fest, but with a stacking "wipe" buff, that might not be a bad idea.

Another option would be for Normal mode to turn on some sort of buff, like in ICC. Obviously it wouldn't reward the FoS achievements when killing bosses with a buff. Blizz went from blanket nerfing to target nerfing, perhaps that's wrong - at least on Normals. If they had implemented the increasing blanket nerf for Normals, more people would have killed bosses.

My point is, that finding a middle ground sounds a lot better to me, rather than just going from one side to another.

[Glorious Leader]

My point is, that finding a middle ground sounds a lot better to me, rather than just going from one side to another.

As for our progress we just started lei shen tonight, thanks for the offer but we'll be good. Look even if all you say is true about all those players leaving i've got news for you. For whatever reason they left THEY AREN'T BEING REPLACED and that is a function of raiding being to hard with to little entry. Another difficulty will not serve this purpose, it will only divide the remaining scraps of the raiding community left. Normals simple have to be easier and if that means heroics do to then so be it. My signature has all you need to know. A middle ground is really not necessary. Their will be far fewer players who leave if raids are made easy. Look if you leave because raids are easy guess what their are 10 guys to fill your spot because raids are easy. If you leave for one of your other stated reasons and raids are hard their are less players to replace you. A midddle ground is not needed. To bad. So Sad.

No matter how you square this the complexity of raid design is going to have to come DOWN... way fucking down if you want to introduce a whole new population of players to normal raiding.

[Deleted]

Yes dad. If I work hard enough will I get my allowance this week? I mean what kind of fucking feedback is this for a developer. You think tmmrw GC can tweet out hey all you zombies who left wtf is wrong with you? just work harder and pay your fucking sub again btw. In principle everything you say is wrong, in practice (even if youy accept the principle as correct) it's empty and in the long run a death sentence for raiding. Well raiding outside of lfr.

And there you are again, going all emo cause someone dare point out, that some players are just plain bad and do not research their class or the encounter. But that's a fact, that a lot of players don't. It's their choice and I don't care, as long as I don't have to play with them. But don't pretend these players don't exist and stop the childish act already.

[Glorious Leader]

And there you are again, going all emo cause someone dare point out, that some players are just plain bad and do not research their class or the encounter. But that's a fact, that a lot of players don't. It's their choice and I don't care, as long as I don't have to play with them. But don't pretend these players don't exist and stop the childish act already.

I'm not the one acting childish. I'm not attempting to apply some moral world view about people being just morally bankrupt and "bad" because they don't "try" at a video game. I find that to be far more childish and far more insulting. The principle is childish. The practice (applied from that principle) is and will continue to be harmful.

[Deleted]

As for our progress we just started lei shen tonight, thanks for the offer but we'll be good. Look even if all you say is true about all those players leaving i've got news for you. For whatever reason they left THEY AREN'T BEING REPLACED and that is a function of raiding being to hard with to little entry. Another difficulty will not serve this purpose, it will only divide the remaining scraps of the raiding community left. Normals simple have to be easier and if that means heroics do to then so be it. My signature has all you need to know. A middle ground is really not necessary. Their will be far fewer players who leave if raids are made easy. Look if you leave because raids are easy guess what their are 10 guys to fill your spot because raids are easy. If you leave for one of your other stated reasons and raids are hard their are less players to replace you. A midddle ground is not needed. To bad. So Sad.

No matter how you square this the complexity of raid design is going to have to come DOWN... way fucking down if you want to introduce a whole new population of players to normal raiding.

That's your opinion. I wonder how you would feel, if your raiders suddenly woke up, researched their classes and the fights, and as a result you started to progress a lot faster and easier. Because you're biased as hell, when it comes to difficulty, we all are. If I had to raid with you or other people who were still stuck on Normal ToT, I'd /wrists. If you had to play with my guild and breeze through Heroics, you might get a different angle on difficulty as well.

And again, you assume that all the players who left the game were raiders. Not all of them were. Some were Paragon level, some were just altoholics and some were somewhere in between. And regardless of difficulty level, you can't just say that getting more players to play again, will automatically fix the decline in raiders. Cause what if 1 million new subs suddenly appeared out of the blue and 750k of them didn't wanna do anything but LFR. Then the actual gain to the raiding community would be 250k and out of those, some will go for Heroic raiding and then the rest would be anything between. But you can't just assume, that more players equal more raiders. And that said players will agree with you and play at your level. What would happen if all these new players all wanted to raid Heroic content?

[Pua]

I do not know why the 10 and 25 man separation of Lich King was undone. Was it casuals who complained?

The opposite, actually.

Non-casual players complained that they didn't like doing both lockouts each week, so Blizzard shelved the most successful raiding model in MMORPG history.

But by that point, why bother? I don't plan to do normal final tier regardless of how much they nerf it. I've already seen the story on LFR, and there's no prestige or guild obligation to keep me going after that. I'm not going to raid for the purpose of accumulating meaningless numbers and purple pixels.

One could even argue that it’s less worthwhile in a final tier, given the gear reset heralded by a new expansion.

I could swear that fewer guilds by far cleared Ulduar on the first week than cleared Throne of Thunder on the first week.

That’s certainly my understanding; I think Ulduar was easier in general, but clearing implies a kill on Yogg-Saron (whom I believe, along with Arthas, was harder than Lei Shen).

Lady Deathwhisper was harder than Horridon on release.

This is the difference between mechanics, and tuning. I think Lady Deathwhisper was pretty complex for her place in a tier, but she wasn’t tuned tightly – her abilities didn’t kill anyone quickly.

I believe the interview your're referring to is the one on Legendary? The one with Hollinka and GC right? GC actually said, that 10 man Heroic seemed tuned a bit too hard on some encounters. And you may thing that 10 Heroic is easy as hell but that's very subjective. I dare say that Heroic Spine was way harder on 10 man than 25 man. That Heroic Council is harder on 10 man than 25 man. It goes both ways and there's pro's and con's about both formats. So lets not start the whole 10v25 argument again shall we.

This is potentially the worrying part; nothing I’ve read from the developers, at any stage, makes me think they believe normal modes are too hard.

They’ve spoken about “friends and family” guilds, but they still seem to consistently imply that they think normal modes are okay (other than a bit of overtuning).

That’s a bit frightening, in many ways.

Are you honestly suggesting that people who don't know how to AOE, don't use their CDs, and have no idea how to play their class/spec in it's very basic form, deserve to have a full normal mode clear and potentially a load of heroic clears handed to them on a silver platter?

I sincerely hope that this argument does not take root in this thread.

It's a straw man, and most sensible people know it.

Incidentally, I agree with your commentary about recruitment. I actually happen to think it's attributable to the ransacking of 25-man guilds, but that's a bit off topic.

[Deleted]

I'm not the one acting childish. I'm not attempting to apply some moral world view about people being just morally bankrupt and "bad" because they don't "try" at a video game. I find that to be far more childish and far more insulting. The principle is childish. The practice (applied from that principle) is and will continue to be harmful.

Will you stop putting words in other people's mouth already, it's getting really old. I never once used the term "morally bankrupt", I don't even see the logic behind such a statement. If you can't stick to what people are saying, there's no reason to argue with you. You're the only one here who keep adding your own words to what other people are saying.

[Maelstrom51]

And there you are again, going all emo cause someone dare point out, that some players are just plain bad and do not research their class or the encounter. But that's a fact, that a lot of players don't. It's their choice and I don't care, as long as I don't have to play with them. But don't pretend these players don't exist and stop the childish act already.

I don't think anyone is arguing they don't exist. Merely that the current model does not support these players, and that it will eventually kill raiding due to having such a high barrier of entry.

[Glorious Leader]

That's your opinion. I wonder how you would feel, if your raiders suddenly woke up, researched their classes and the fights, and as a result you started to progress a lot faster and easier. Because you're biased as hell, when it comes to difficulty, we all are. If I had to raid with you or other people who were still stuck on Normal ToT, I'd /wrists. If you had to play with my guild and breeze through Heroics, you might get a different angle on difficulty as well.

And again, you assume that all the players who left the game were raiders. Not all of them were. Some were Paragon level, some were just altoholics and some were somewhere in between. And regardless of difficulty level, you can't just say that getting more players to play again, will automatically fix the decline in raiders. Cause what if 1 million new subs suddenly appeared out of the blue and 750k of them didn't wanna do anything but LFR. Then the actual gain to the raiding community would be 250k and out of those, some will go for Heroic raiding and then the rest would be anything between. But you can't just assume, that more players equal more raiders. And that said players will agree with you and play at your level. What would happen if all these new players all wanted to raid Heroic content?

Then heroic content should be for them. To bad for you. My raiders are fine and know what the fuck they are doing. They dont' need to be patronized by people on forums thank you very much. I mean saying difficulty is subjective is so duh and it's so precisely the fucking point. For to many players current raids are to difficult that means they have to come wayyyyyyyy the fuck down.

I make no assumption. I make clear statements. The increasing trend in complexity is unsustainable regardless of why people leave or stay. if you leave for whatever reason and raids are easy guess what 10 people can replace you in a second. If you leave for whatever reason and raids are hard less people are available to replace you.

[voxTree]

I'm not the one acting childish. I'm not attempting to apply some moral world view about people being just morally bankrupt and "bad" because they don't "try" at a video game.

Now see, this is the mentality that a lot of the raiding population has now, which ends up crippling their guilds in some cases. Yes, it's a video game... just a game. However, you are not the sole player in this game. It takes 9/24 other people to down a boss as a team effort. Yes, if you raid, you should try and put in some effort. If you don't care enough to try (and surround yourself with people that also care/try), then I don't really know how you expect to down bosses in a timely manner.

It seems that some of the WoW population has lost touch with the team aspect of raiding. It's all "me me me" anymore.

[Glorious Leader]

Will you stop putting words in other people's mouth already, it's getting really old. I never once used the term "morally bankrupt", I don't even see the logic behind such a statement. If you can't stick to what people are saying, there's no reason to argue with you. You're the only one here who keep adding your own words to what other people are saying.

No you basically said those players don't try and don't care to. Do you consider that a moral judgement or just a statement of fact? I don't deny that they exist, they do exist and they are far more numerous than you.

[Deleted]

Looks very shocking indeed but I think you should add T11 and T12 to it as they were the harder tiers in the cataclysm. DS HC was easier than parts of ToT normal.

[Deleted]

I don't think anyone is arguing they don't exist. Merely that the current model does not support these players, and that it will eventually kill raiding due to having such a high barrier of entry.

You're right, the current model doesn't support these players. But that's what LFR is for, that's the whole point of LFR - something GC has said several times. If you just want to have fun, don't want to invest time or effort into learning your character and optimizing it, then LFR is the place you go.

Back in ICC where there was no LFR, 10 man Normal was the place to go for people who just wanted to have fun and play the way they wanted. I'd dare say that back then it was worse for really casual players, cause the mechanics weren't dumped down. So you either stepped it up, or you didn't get invited. Now you can go in in blue gear and do LFR, so tell me, is it the raids that have become harder or the playerbase that has become worse or maybe not worse but more used to the easy level of LFR?

[Glorious Leader]

Now see, this is the mentality that a lot of the raiding population has now, which ends up crippling their guilds in some cases. Yes, it's a video game... just a game. However, you are not the sole player in this game. It takes 9/24 other people to down a boss as a team effort. Yes, if you raid, you should try and put in some effort. If you don't care enough to try (and surround yourself with people that also care/try), then I don't really know how you expect to down bosses in a timely manner.

It seems that some of the WoW population has lost touch with the team aspect of raiding. It's all "me me me" anymore.

Really? I am not the sole player you say? You think their are more of yous than their are of mes? Or hell you think their are more of yous out there than then lfr heros? You think the minority of players who this content is actually suitable for actually represents some majority. Trust me you want to start talking about me me me then we lose every god damn heroic boss in the universe because the ONLY people with special entitlement mentalities are heroic raiders. When raids are piss easy guess who can do them? alot more people that's who and when their piss easy and so piss easy your mouth breathing inbred cousin can push one button to down them guess who gets to do them? EVERYBODY. The position you just described is not in your favor.

It's all me me me me me if you like this difficulty. If you think raids should be made easier than it's really not me me me me it's for us the living. Not all you zombies.

[Pua]

And there you are again, going all emo cause someone dare point out, that some players are just plain bad and do not research their class or the encounter. But that's a fact, that a lot of players don't. It's their choice and I don't care, as long as I don't have to play with them. But don't pretend these players don't exist and stop the childish act already.

I think this is where Blizzard really do have a lot to answer for, because this type of comment is symptomatic of the way the community is now (I'm not getting at you, by the way).

The community, for those of us who played WotLK, was much better during those days and particularly from a server standpoint. In Cataclysm, Blizzard pretty much hammered the raiding model that had worked and fostered communities to a point, and then chose to blame the community itself for those changes; alas, it's gone on ever since.

Why did they make such difficult five-man heroics?

"Many of our players didn't enjoy the easy five-mans in Wrath".

Why did they make the gear catch-up so generous?

"Many of our non-raiders don't want stuck to one toon".

Now these are paraphrases of course, but one argument is blaming the top end raiding community that provides a bit of realm gravitas, while the other argument blames the casual players that make servers thrive. Take a look back over the blue commentary from Cataclysm onward, and even into MoP, and you'll see what I'm talking about. At every turn, one group of players is blamed for inflicting woes on another and the result is that a community that used to essentially support itself ended up turning on itself.

And, no.

I personally don't believe that players who don't gem, enchant or bother to learn to play their class at all should be clearing normal modes. Getting through the first quarter is pretty reasonable if there are better players willing to carry their chums, but any further and I reckon players should start to shape up a bit.

[Deleted]

No you basically said those players don't try and don't care to. Do you consider that a moral judgement or just a statement of fact? I don't deny that they exist, they do exist and they are far more numerous than you.

This is a game and moral judgement has no place in this discussion imo. Moral is something you apply to behavior in relation to other people, I don't get why you keep using those words as if they came out of my mouth. I don't judge people for how they play on a moral basis. I do judge them on their skills and the effort they put in, but being bad at a video game doesn't mean you're a bad human being - big difference dude.