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  1. #201
    Immortal Frozen Death Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    It is call class variety. You want single target heal pick paladin. You want strong aoe heal get shaman or druid. every role had specific skills your class feel uniq and cool.
    Having played a Paladin since Vanilla, TBC was pretty much the worst period for my class ever, one of the reasons being the one you brought up. If uniqueness all comes down to me being a single target healer, then please throw my class out the window and start over.

  2. #202

  3. #203
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    That's pretty interesting. Last time I looked at Xfire was about a year ago. At that time, LoL kicked every other game's ass and was way ahead of WoW with several times more users. Pretty surprising that it's below WoW now.
    I think it is more related to Xfire and not LoL.

  4. #204
    The incentive to raid with the introduction of LFR went down. And LFR in its current form is too easy to provide long term content for ppl. So yeah, lets hope Blizz will come up with ways to rectify the situation. Flexible raid size as 4th difficulty is kind of awkward.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  5. #205
    He's completely right. That's definetly the kind of game I wanted and joined for in the first place, but have since completely vanished.

    Not surprising that many posters on here completely disagree and even get agressive towards the opinion. Can't really see myself coming back for a long time unless changes happen.

  6. #206
    Over 9000! Gimlix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    I think it is more related to Xfire and not LoL.
    Still majority of players who was using xfire was still LoL, and now LoL is below WoW once again, That shows that LoL is declining aswell in how active it used to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shekora View Post
    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam the Wiser View Post
    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?

  7. #207
    Stood in the Fire Bloodfire's Avatar
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    Pfff...
    BC is the "sweet spot" really, in which level of grind was over9000. The numbers were so high at that time because WoW had no competitors on MMO market. And people just looked at something which was new to them. Show me another MMO which held for more than 8 years and had a stable player base. It's just getting TOO OLD. Oldfags are gone, newcomers have NOTHING in terms of interest for lore or other things in Warcraft universe.
    And furthermore, he should've looked into his game instead, as LoL is simply horrible in terms of social interaction. Just simply try create and acc, get into game and do everything right, and say few words to those who do that wrong. Trust me, you'll hear a lot about yourself.

  8. #208
    That was refreshing to read. No "this is the one right thing to do", no "omg its gonna die!". Just an opinion. A good one in my opinion
    "And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five?
    A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head."

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    I think the sub numbers in vanilla wow, and TBC speak for themselves, and blatantly proves that your statement here is false.
    I think you don't have a clue how the market works.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by exriel View Post
    Nobody is forcing you to run LFR. If you have bad players in your raid that are holding you back from Normals and Heroics, boot them and recruit someone new.
    No one is holding my guild back from clearing heroic. Once flex comes out we will have to clear it every week to stay competitive and in the top 10 guilds on my realm. That is what pisses me off.

    Why are they adding flex? To please the bad players that can't kill horridon normal.

  11. #211
    Deleted
    I agree on what he says, very nice explained, he does not Rip or diss WOW, in any real way, but he explains A very solid argument, what player wants and need is 2 different things. To really simpelfy it, a Kid would love to eat only candy, but that is not what a kid need

  12. #212
    I think his largest mistake is trying to use the games numbers and growing to back up the idea of exclusivity. The main reason WoW was growing by massive amounts numbers wise is because they were continually opening in new markets and the game was still fresh. It also was the first expansion of a game that took the world by storm, everyone wanted to be a part of it, or at least try it.

    It kind of makes me giggle that everyone points to WotLK as the point where they started trying to be more inclusive, when in actuality it started with Kara and then ZA. They were both 10 mans, and while much more difficult than 10 man Naxx, they were created with a smaller group in mind.

    I think what others also fail to realize is that they changed the mold of raiding because frankly, they were running out of things to do for the masses that were non-raiders. Now if they would of had things like the farm, pet battles, etc. at that time then they may not have felt the need to. However, in part the change up in Wrath was due to alot of those players that had finally gotten a taste of raiding with Kara and ZA, and had a hunger for their own level of progression.

    Now thats not to say that I disagree with him on everything. There is nothing wrong with having harder content that not everyone will get to experience, however, keeping 90% of your players out of the thing you spend the most time and money on is not really the best place to do it in my mind.

    I'll be the first to admit, that without the addition of 10 man progression that they added, I would of been finished with WoW sometime during the WotLK.
    Last edited by Armourboy; 2013-06-08 at 12:24 PM.

  13. #213
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndor View Post
    His opinion is much more valuable than anyone else. He have huge experience with game desing so dont tell me that your opinion have same value then his.
    Argumentum ad auctoritatem, really? Are we back to the 6th grade? Get a grip.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
    It kind of makes me giggle that everyone points to WotLK as the point where they started trying to be more inclusive, when in actuality it started with Kara and then ZA. They were both 10 mans, and while much more difficult than 10 man Naxx, they were created with a smaller group in mind.
    Actually, I think it was S1, where you could lose your way in arena to "welfare epics" (the origin of that term, from a dev.)

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-08 at 12:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Armourboy View Post
    I'll be the first to admit, that without the addition of 10 man progression that they added, I would of been finished with WoW sometime during the WotLK.
    And if Wrath had been like BC, I would have walked away early in the expansion. I had told myself exactly that, before Wrath came out.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    Why do people think that player pool is dried up? Gaming has become more accepted over the years so older players are getting in to games and as kids grow up, they get in to gaming more than ever now with how accepted it is at a lower age level. Gaming as a whole is bigger than its ever been with numbers of people doing it and how much coverage it gets. There is no reason for "we are out of players" to be an excuse.

    I'm sure most people to this day still try WoW at some point who have an interest in gaming, they just don't stay around because of how the game is now.
    I didn't say the pool of potential players dried up, I said it's smaller than it was back at the end of Vanilla and through BC and WotLK. And it was. Consider the mythical 12 million players at some point in Wrath. If we assume a turnover rate of 30%, meaning that 30% of all people who ever played WoW gave up at some point or another (and that's a very low number!), you'd have a little over 15 million players who were either playing or had already played World of Warcraft at one point or another.

    Personally, I believe that number to be closer to 100%, meaning that except for a few folks who have been playing since Vanilla, the entire playerbase has renovated itself at least once. But I don't think you'll agree with me.

    Either way, that's at least 15 million people by the time Wrath ended, and that number is likely quite a lot bigger now. We don't know how big the pool of players who play MMORPGs is, but there's good reason to believe it's already saturated. Very few new MMOs even manage to reach half of WoW's current subscriber numbers, either because WoW has already claimed . There's talk everywhere that gamers might be losing interest in entire model of MMORPG gameplay.

    So yeah, I believe the shrinking pool of potential new players is one of the reasons World of Warcraft can't recoup its normal losses. Because nobody else can either.


    As an aside, I would have loved to know what percentage of the playerbase plays in which region. I have a feeling the Asian region accounts for far more subscriptions than we give them credit for, and so swings in their membership hit the game numbers harder than swings in the Western regions.
    Nothing ever bothers Juular.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Holtzmann View Post
    There's talk everywhere that gamers might be losing interest in entire model of MMORPG gameplay.
    Folks should not discount shifts in gaming. They can totally change things.

    Remember back before computers, when people played wargames on paper and cardboard maps? That was a thriving industry. Today, it's shrunk by something like two orders of magnitude. It's pretty much dead except for niches.

    The same thing could happen to MMOs, particularly if something more popular comes along to displace them.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  17. #217
    It generally is bad practice to get involved in a discussion about another company, especially in the industry he is in, but he definately raised some good and bad points, but remained very neutral about the whole thing, so well done on that.

    I generally agree with him, but I don't know if he is right. Personally, I love to strive for something, have a goal to move up onto. The best time of my life in World of Warcraft was when I was in a top-realm guild in Tier 11, and was in the top 20 EU Guilds with Heroics & Achievements, but ... I did get burned out, purely because there was nothing beyond Heroic to entertain me.

    For most players, that won't be the case. Going from Normal Dungeons -> Heroic Dungeons -> Looking for Raid -> Normal Mode -> Heroic Mode should provide more then enough content and stuff to do, as long as it is challenging from various aspects and due to minor limitations in gear.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    Argumentum ad auctoritatem, really? Are we back to the 6th grade? Get a grip.
    You're confusing authority with experience. Yes, I would take Stephen King's recommendation for a book over my friend. 10 out of 10 times. He knows how to write a book, he has written best-selling books, he likes writing books. On the other hand, my friends barely read any books.

    Globally recognized scientists are a more important opinion on climate change than my father, too.
    Last edited by Frogged; 2013-06-08 at 02:38 PM.
    "I realized it is the struggle itself that is the most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will never reach our ultimate goal. The effort yields its own rewards." -Data

  19. #219
    I personally am much more of a Dota guy than a LoL guy, but now I have much more respect for LoL after reading his responses to exclusivity of content (ie raiding).



    And, despite what people believe, I am going to trust the opinion of a guy who DESIGNS SUCCESSFUL GAMES FOR A LIVING than I would trust the opinion of some random guy in a random MMO-C thread (my opinion included).

    While his opinion might not dramatically change the way Blizzard looks at WoW, his opinion definitely carries more weight than anyone's opinion in this thread does.
    Last edited by Mammoon; 2013-06-08 at 02:47 PM.

  20. #220
    Notorious and pathological complainers and doomsayers will of course happily see this guy's opinion as the long-awaited validation of their daily WoW-related whine. But it still is, you know ... his opinion.

    One thing I definitely realized here at college: industry guys are - surprise, surprise - just people. They have their opinions and it's not gospel. A lot of our lecturers here are top guys. As a reference: PS4 launch titles that are in development right now. Alan Wake. Crysis. Call of Duty. Darksiders. Spellforce. In cinema: Avatar, Harry Potter, the Avengers ... people who obviously know their shit.

    And guess what, they all have opinions, they disagree, and while they're obviously more knowledgeable than some dweeb on MMO-Champ, it's not as if they tap into some secret grail of wisdom and see the whole thing from a completely inscrutable perspective. Their views are more or less the same you hear from anybody else, somewhere along the usual spectrum between pro and contra.

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