1. #2361
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    I have plenty of empathy, as I play this game less than a good percentage of folks do. The difference is that I completely accept the fact that there are many things I won't accomplish because I'm not willing to invest said time in them. That bit of self reflection, apparently, isn't appealing to most folks on the forums, who'd rather demand that the game be brought to down to a time investment level they deem appropriate
    But there are plenty of things LfR-players won't accomplish (Normal and heroic modes with all the better gear, achievements/titles and mounts that brings), but Blizz has decided that lowly LFR-players will get to run raids that at least look like normal and heroic (rather drastic differences in some cases), i agree that legendaries should be normal-and-up only though, you can have the grind-quests for a cloak, but since a lot of the storyline is wrapped up in raids (And most gear-progression is shifted to it), LfR should at least be there and allow people to run raid-like instances to kill the big bads (in trainer-wheels mode, but we still see them kill them and take their stuff :P)

  2. #2362
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    [snip]
    So, the 1% figure was for HEROIC Lich King. That makes much more sense.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  3. #2363
    Currently Wow has different teams working on different content, It has a raid team that has been creating SoO ever since ToT went live and soon it will be open for testing on Beta. These raid tiers have a 6 month turn around. No resources are being put into 5 mans. LFR is there to gear up and LFR requires so little resources that they dont even bother to beta test publicly. If they dont work for perfect strangers thet tweek them live.

    So somebody here, ANYBODY, explain to me how you are going to maintain your Raid content if the resources have to be funneled into making more content for the majority of players who do not belong to Guilds? If you want Raid content every 6 months then you have to deal with an LFR community. If you don't mind getting it every 12 months then problem solved.

    As far as funneling LFR players into guilds to boost their membership;

    You are not going to get people who don't have the time to schedule raids. Those people are not even on the menu.

    You are not going to get the people who don't have the top 12% skill. You don't want them.

    You are not going to get the people who hate guilds because of drama. They don't want you.

    You will get the people who will take the shortest route possible to see the content, the lazy people who dont especially want to be challenged. Do you really want them? They poop in the pool as it is, you want -that- in your raid guild?

    Hell you'd be better off calling for the end of PVP content, at least they have time and skills.

  4. #2364
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    So how can you as a business survive if you have a carnival tent and take money from 1,000 people but only 7 or 8 people actually get to go inside and see the show? Theres going to be some pissed off people.
    Uhhhhh because there's more to the show aside from the very, very, very end of it?

    In the last few pages this discussion has changed to: I should be able to clear heroic raids. HCs are made for the elite few and GC has even stated they will not remove it regardless of the minority who run it. Just like people are with LFR, get over it because they're here to stay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    You're full of shit honey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  5. #2365
    Deleted
    Yes it is certainly a problem that younger/newer gamers who like a challenge won't even pick up wow anymore (or give it a shot beyond lfr) since it's clear to everyone that it's the easiest online game in the market. Doesn't matter that there is hc difficulty or high rated pvp (even Reckfull stated recently that wow is just boring and extremly easy).

    By being accessible to the extreme, Blizzard is luring in all kinds of players, as you described DeadmanWalking. But it also makes it less attractive to the better gamers.

  6. #2366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    Uhhhhh because there's more to the show aside from the very, very, very end of it?

    In the last few pages this discussion has changed to: I should be able to clear heroic raids. HCs are made for the elite few and GC has even stated they will not remove it regardless of the minority who run it. Just like people are with LFR, get over it because they're here to stay.
    Actually not really. Like I wish their was but the one aspect of the carnival basically eats up all the resources and more importantly all the direction. They could have said raids are gonna take a back seat and here's all kinds of other crap that were gonna focus our resources and attention on and most importantly end game on.

    I'd be absolutely thrilled if the developers tmmrw said were gonna provide you with a meaningful significant form of advancement that isn't the rng raid grind. However that would likely mean that raiding would also take a back seat and the 12 boss bloated raid tiers would go the way of the dinosaur. I'd love it. The crying would be deafening however...
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-06-27 at 08:35 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #2367
    So how can you as a business survive if you have a carnival tent and take money from 1,000 people but only 7 or 8 people actually get to go inside and see the show? Theres going to be some pissed off people.
    Because you pay for hours to see the show, and with more things that you don't see and you WANT to see that, you will stay paying. What happen when you see all the content in low time? You just go to your house because there isn't anything to see.
    The difficult about MMOs is putting ingame balance between untouched content and don't become bored while you are trying. Don't give all the pie to the crowd, because people will eat too fast.
    Last edited by Belisaurio; 2013-06-27 at 08:32 PM.

  8. #2368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryva View Post
    By being accessible to the extreme, Blizzard is luring in all kinds of players, as you described DeadmanWalking. But it also makes it less attractive to the better gamers.
    "Better" gamers (and what attracts or doesn't attract them) are obviously relative. The amount of money the game draws is isn't.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #2369
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Actually not really. Like I wish their was but the one aspect of the carnival basically eats up all the resources and more importantly all the direction. They could have said raids are gonna take a back seat and here's all kinds of other crap that were gonna focus our resources and attention on and most importantly end game on.

    I'd be absolutely thrilled if the developers tmmrw said were gonna provide you with a meaningful significant form of advancement that isn't the rng raid grind. However that would likely mean that raiding would also take a back seat and the 12 boss bloated raid tiers would go the way of the dinosaur. I'd love it. The crying would be deafening however...
    There is tons to do in WoW aside from raid. But if you're looking just for endgame progression aside from raiding then yes, there isn't a great alternative (pvp debatably). GC has said they haven't figured out another supplement for endgame progression yet.

    But honestly, WoW has been like this it's entire existence. It shouldn't be a surprise to veterans that end game progression = raiding. It's probably part of the reason subs have been bleeding. Literally repackaging the same game and selling it for 8+ years can get slightly repetitive.

    All the scenarios, pet battles, and brawlers guilds are nice quirks but I agree a different endgame progression would really rejuvenate a stale formula at this point. What or how they could do this? No idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    You're full of shit honey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  10. #2370
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    Heroic epics, heroic only mounts and achievements. Titles. Isnt that exclusive enough? I'm 13/13hc btw.

  11. #2371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    There is tons to do in WoW aside from raid. But if you're looking just for endgame progression aside from raiding then yes, there isn't a great alternative (pvp debatably). GC has said they haven't figured out another supplement for endgame progression yet.

    But honestly, WoW has been like this it's entire existence. It shouldn't be a surprise to veterans that end game progression = raiding. It's probably part of the reason subs have been bleeding. Literally repackaging the same game and selling it for 8+ years can get slightly repetitive.

    All the scenarios, pet battles, and brawlers guilds are nice quirks but I agree a different endgame progression would really rejuvenate a stale formula at this point. What or how they could do this? No idea.
    Theirs lots to do. Little that offers character progression. Character progression is the appeal of wow. Not fishing or pet battles. In that sense cata was LIGHT YEARS ahead of mists. People were progressing their characters extremely well outside of raids in cataclysm.

    It does not come as a surprise to me that in the battle between everything else and raids, raids won. I would submit this was poor decision making on the developers part however.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-06-27 at 09:02 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #2372
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    All they know is if you take loot away from them, it's a bad thing.
    I think you're on to something here. People feel like people doing LFR having the same name and colour text as N/H versions is taking those N/H versions away from them. I've wondered for a while if they used "rehashed" old skins and different names for the loot that drops there, whether people would feel differently about the loot that drops there.

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    How much time the average target customer has is probably a number that no one will come to an agreement on.

    It would be an interesting exercise to have access to stats on what the average play time is for both raiders and non raiders (and everything in between).
    Well I know for a fact there are many, many non-raiders who spend a lot more time on the game than me (and I play too much).

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Mr. Two Hours has a completely unreasonable approach to the game, and probably shouldn't be playing MMO's to begin with.

    Or, conversely: If progress in this game was indeed tailored to be so minimal, then it's no longer worth paying a sub fee for, as I can get more entertainment per dollar from far less expensive titles.
    It's unreasonable for them to expect to progress as fast as Mr 20 hours, but it's not unreasonable for them to get there eventually. As above, I know non-raiders who play more than I do, and I know raiders with better progression who play less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryva View Post
    I didn't think my post was too difficult to understand - maybe ask Blizzard to nerf it for you

    Look at the pugs for T14, there are always players lfm in the forums because it's possible to do it crossrealm. When T16 hits there will be pugs for ToT. So where is the problem?

    Of course if you want a game where you have to put in zero effort to see the latest content, then you need LFR.
    Why do they need to look cross-realm to do T14? It shows how frequently people are doing it. Only a tiny, tiny proportion of players even look cross realm or are prepared to share their battletag with strangers. Are you really expecting experienced raiders to do go back and do content they burned on months ago? It's the ridiculous argument all over from Dragon Soul; "I'm bored of Dragon Soul because I've been doing it for nine months. If I had Firelands and T11 too, I wouldn't be bored of them, I'd have only been farming them for 18 months/2 years."

  13. #2373
    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    Because you pay for hours to see the show, and with more things that you don't see and you WANT to see that, you will stay paying. What happen when you see all the content in low time? You just go to your house because there isn't anything to see.
    The difficult about MMOs is putting ingame balance between untouched content and don't become bored while you are trying. Don't give all the pie to the crowd, because people will eat too fast.
    Except if the line is hours long you're not even going to get in it. You're going to go see the show next door because their show is as good, if not better, and they have plenty of seats for everyone. Sure, you don't give out all the pie, but if you keep most of it locked up somewhere it eventually goes bad before it can be sold.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 04:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    There is tons to do in WoW aside from raid. But if you're looking just for endgame progression aside from raiding then yes, there isn't a great alternative (pvp debatably). GC has said they haven't figured out another supplement for endgame progression yet.
    As far as multiplayer content for healers there is PvP, and that's it. Brawler's guild, pet battles, and dailies are solo content. Scenarios don't require healers. Besides, you can burn through all of them in a day. "Heroic" Dungeons are basically glorified group quests. What's left? Just raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    But honestly, WoW has been like this it's entire existence. It shouldn't be a surprise to veterans that end game progression = raiding. It's probably part of the reason subs have been bleeding. Literally repackaging the same game and selling it for 8+ years can get slightly repetitive.
    Actually, no. In WotLK there were tons of dungeons, and every patch put out a few more. The newer dungeons were progressively harder and had better gear to go with the difficulty. Cataclysm gave the finger to dungeoneers by ratcheting up the difficulty while simultaneously gimping the gear. The fact that a boss like Jin'do whose difficulty was comparable with raid level bosses was dropping 353 loot that wasn't even as good as rep gear was a slap in the face to non-raiders.

  14. #2374
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryva View Post
    Yes it is certainly a problem that younger/newer gamers who like a challenge won't even pick up wow anymore (or give it a shot beyond lfr) since it's clear to everyone that it's the easiest online game in the market. Doesn't matter that there is hc difficulty or high rated pvp (even Reckfull stated recently that wow is just boring and extremly easy).

    By being accessible to the extreme, Blizzard is luring in all kinds of players, as you described DeadmanWalking. But it also makes it less attractive to the better gamers.
    The truth of the matter is you can right now tell the better players to go somewhere else and the game will motor on as before. You tell the rest the same thing and the whole thing collapses and there is no game. The few that are better are dispensable, you know why? It's a business not a beauty contest.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 10:15 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    Because you pay for hours to see the show, and with more things that you don't see and you WANT to see that, you will stay paying. What happen when you see all the content in low time? You just go to your house because there isn't anything to see.
    The difficult about MMOs is putting ingame balance between untouched content and don't become bored while you are trying. Don't give all the pie to the crowd, because people will eat too fast.
    You need some work on your analogies. They will eat the pie too fast? Wtf? If you had a pie baking business and you made 1,000 pies which 1000 people paid for and only 7 got to eat them then you eat 993 pies worth of profit when your customers take their money else where. You can't survive on 7 people buying 7 out of 1000 pies, but you can profit off of 993 people buying pies.

    In a perfect world where only the best count then sure your fantasy raid community works, but in real life it doesn't. Nobody has yet to agree to get 10 bosses every 15 months in exchange for LFR as opposed to 12-14 every 6 months because blizzard would have to sate its 99.3% first except for Glorious Leader and he's a bit biased to begin with.

  15. #2375
    You need some work on your analogies. They will eat the pie too fast? Wtf? If you had a pie baking business and you made 1,000 pies which 1000 people paid for and only 7 got to eat them then you eat 993 pies worth of profit when your customers take their money else where. You can't survive on 7 people buying 7 out of 1000 pies, but you can profit off of 993 people buying pies.

    In a perfect world where only the best count then sure your fantasy raid community works, but in real life it doesn't. Nobody has yet to agree to get 10 bosses every 15 months in exchange for LFR as opposed to 12-14 every 6 months because blizzard would have to sate its 99.3% first except for Glorious Leader and he's a bit biased to begin with.
    I was talking about Pie like a game, you can't have the "eater" eat all, because they will return home. You need to give small pieces slowly. Sorry if I confused somebody with the "pies"
    You need to keep the endgame out of the users hands until they try hard and learn a lot of mechanics, because learning and practising= time spend in the game. But beware, because if that "learning" and "practising" becomes boring to users, then you will fail again. Nobody should stuck so much time trying to advance, but nobody should see the endgame content too fast without dedication. With time, all of player-base should see the content or have something to try it.

    Continue with the bakery business example: You have 1.000 pies but you earn money for time that people are eating them, not for selling them. So, you will put a lot of fruits, maybe some ham and lot of things in this 1.000 pies. In the end, you will have the pies a little "harder" to eat, and people can't finish it with one bite. So in the end, the people with a big mouth can finish the pie faster, but other just need more time.

    P.D: I like pies
    Last edited by Belisaurio; 2013-06-27 at 10:34 PM.

  16. #2376
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    The entire seeing the content arguement is invalid.
    1. Its experiencing the content and a player should be able to experience the content as much as they want.
    That only works when the experience is the same and it isnt the same experience between LFR, normal and heroics with LFR and normal having the largest gap. Even GC has said that LFR doesnt offer the same experience as normal.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post

    No LFR=No reason to spend 90% of your post-leveling/quest resources on 1% of the playerbase that actually gets to experience it.
    BS because the last time that happened was Sunwell and players did go back afterwards which means more than 1% of the population has "experienced" the content. The only content that remains exclusive is the content that gets removed. Where is this 90% of development resources coming from or are you pulling numbers out of your ass again as you continue to make a bunch of overly bloated BS?
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    So, the 1% figure was for HEROIC Lich King. That makes much more sense.
    So apparently normal mode doesnt count to this poster and yet they use LFR as an example of experiencing content.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-06-27 at 10:36 PM.

  17. #2377
    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    Continue with the bakery business example: You have 1.000 pies but you earn money for time that people are eating them, not for selling them.
    And this is where the disconnect is. Don't worry; you're not the only one with this misconception. Blizzard doesn't make money for the time players spend in the game. In fact, the more people play, the more it costs them. They make money when players remain subscribed, and players only remained subscribed when there's something for them to do. The argument that Blizzard should make content require tens of hours of weekly commitments doesn't hold because a player logging in for two hours a week is paying just as much money as the player logging in for 40 hours a week. In fact, the second player is costing them 20 times as much to maintain. So to make the most money Blizzard needs to find out how much time most players want to devote to the game and plan their content in such a way that those players stay busy though the entirety of the expansion.

    Successful normal and/or heroic mode raiding requires hours of research, unless you're a top guild, in which case it requires even more hours of trial and error. The typical player just wants to play. Going with your pie analogy, imagine if, prior to tasting the pie, your customers and their friends were required to take a 3 hour baking class. How many people would bother to try your pie? How about if the baker next door is handing out free cookie samples? When people are hungry they just want to eat.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-27 at 05:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    BS because the last time that happened was Sunwell and players did go back afterwards which means more than 1% of the population has "experienced" the content. The only content that remains exclusive is the content that gets removed. Where is this 90% of development resources coming from or are you pulling numbers out of your ass again as you continue to make a bunch of overly bloated BS?
    Providing content that players return to and faceroll in an afternoon after the next expansion drops doesn't exactly represent the return on investment that Blizzard hopes for when they produce content. Blizzard doesn't make money off the fact that every player experienced their content once. They make money when players log into the game consistently. That's why they have the gearing treadmill. It makes players return day after day for another pull on that lever. If Blizzard is going to invest the majority of their resources in raid content they need to put it to good use. That's where LFR comes in. LFR is the appeal to the masses that justifies the cost of developing raids.

  18. #2378
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    And this is where the disconnect is. Don't worry; you're not the only one with this misconception. Blizzard doesn't make money for the time players spend in the game. In fact, the more people play, the more it costs them. They make money when players remain subscribed, and players only remained subscribed when there's something for them to do. The argument that Blizzard should make content require tens of hours of weekly commitments doesn't hold because a player logging in for two hours a week is paying just as much money as the player logging in for 40 hours a week. In fact, the second player is costing them 20 times as much to maintain. So to make the most money Blizzard needs to find out how much time most players want to devote to the game and plan their content in such a way that those players stay busy though the entirety of the expansion.

    Successful normal and/or heroic mode raiding requires hours of research, unless you're a top guild, in which case it requires even more hours of trial and error. The typical player just wants to play. Going with your pie analogy, imagine if, prior to tasting the pie, your customers and their friends were required to take a 3 hour baking class. How many people would bother to try your pie? How about if the baker next door is handing out free cookie samples? When people are hungry they just want to eat.[COLOR="red"]
    No they don't. They don't need to plan for the guy who plays 30 or 40 hours a week those people are hopelessly addicted that even if they compelte everything on one toon in 10 hours let's say they have 4 or 5 alts they can do it all over again on and often will. The guy who plays 2 hours a day is obviously less addicted and more likely to say fuck you to the developers when the game isn't appealing to them anymore. No middle ground is needed in this case. The guys playing 30-40 hours a week are doing so because they are addicted and were addicted in cataclysm and in wotlk and in bc and in vanilla. In fact their so addicted that evne in mists where they purposely went back to a vanilla style to give players more to do the developers still tell us that people are subbing around patches. In other words those 30-40 hour a week guys WILL NEVER BE SATED. IN the attempt to sate them the developers sacrificed the casual experience and casuals (quite rightly) said fuck you i'm out.

    Better than the question of exclusivity is the question should the developers have saved the raid model (by shoving it down the throats of players) or should they have more or less abandoned it. The latter is obviously a radical (and potentially innovative) change. The former has the advantage of being "safe". I'm of the opinion that the game is in dire need of something NEW. Dailies and raids are STALE. Forcing them down the throats of players while at the same time also telling them they'll get even less reward out of actually investing time to do that stale garbage is obviously not an enjoyable prospect for many. People defend the subscriber loss on the fact that the game is "old", well yea but mists does little to rejuvenate the game and in fact makes it feel even older than it is.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-06-27 at 11:28 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #2379
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Better than the question of exclusivity is the question should the developers have saved the raid model (by shoving it down the throats of players) or should they have more or less abandoned it. The latter is obviously a radical (and potentially innovative) change. The former has the advantage of being "safe". I'm of the opinion that the game is in dire need of something NEW. Dailies and raids are STALE. Forcing them down the throats of players while at the same time also telling them they'll get even less reward out of actually investing time to do that stale garbage is obviously not an enjoyable prospect for many.
    I think the problem here is when they try something 'new', or even revert to something 'old', is that they go a bit crazy with it. Case in point, start of Cataclysm; they say 'Heroics are now hard', and go all out this is fucking hard; there's no easing into the new philosophy, just knee jerk swings from one extreme to the next. It's not really suprising then that players react badly to such a shift and leave the game. They respond by shifting back completely the other way in DS in a manner that fails to really bring back the players they just pushed out, and end up alienating the players who liked it that way; who then went on to complain about the lack of content for 9 months.

    Move on to MoP, we've become accustomed to levelling alts and being able to consume everything relatively quickly, knocking over Deathwing 7 times a week, then suddenly MoP hits and OMG CAN'T DO ALL OF THE THINGS. Just no lead in at all and back to the brick walls raids. Now, if the raids weren't brick walled by Garalon and Elegon, then maybe dailies wouldn't have hurt so much as raiding would have been a viable gearing path on its own; but those two bosses and reluctance to do anything about them meant people weren't progressing their characters and the only way they could became dailies.

    I think they repeated the same mistake with ToT. Horridon was too much for guilds that completed T14, but hadn't done so cleanly or quickly enough to get their upgrades and maybe a couple of Heroic pieces. Again, they're pushed into LFR and dailies to catch up, because gearing from the raid itself wasn't a viable progression path with so few bosses, ie one, open to them; and the past tier is 'old', done with over months, and dropping inferior loot.

    I just hope they don't make the same mistake yet again, or overreact to it in way players feel is too radical a change in direction going into 5.4.

  20. #2380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I think the problem here is when they try something 'new', or even revert to something 'old', is that they go a bit crazy with it. Case in point, start of Cataclysm; they say 'Heroics are now hard', and go all out this is fucking hard; there's no easing into the new philosophy, just knee jerk swings from one extreme to the next. It's not really suprising then that players react badly to such a shift and leave the game. They respond by shifting back completely the other way in DS in a manner that fails to really bring back the players they just pushed out, and end up alienating the players who liked it that way; who then went on to complain about the lack of content for 9 months.

    Move on to MoP, we've become accustomed to levelling alts and being able to consume everything relatively quickly, knocking over Deathwing 7 times a week, then suddenly MoP hits and OMG CAN'T DO ALL OF THE THINGS. Just no lead in at all and back to the brick walls raids. Now, if the raids weren't brick walled by Garalon and Elegon, then maybe dailies wouldn't have hurt so much as raiding would have been a viable gearing path on its own; but those two bosses and reluctance to do anything about them meant people weren't progressing their characters and the only way they could became dailies.

    I think they repeated the same mistake with ToT. Horridon was too much for guilds that completed T14, but hadn't done so cleanly or quickly enough to get their upgrades and maybe a couple of Heroic pieces. Again, they're pushed into LFR and dailies to catch up, because gearing from the raid itself wasn't a viable progression path with so few bosses, ie one, open to them; and the past tier is 'old', done with over months, and dropping inferior loot.

    I just hope they don't make the same mistake yet again, or overreact to it in way players feel is too radical a change in direction going into 5.4.
    I agree with all of that but I think you can also make a case that they don't change enough fundamentally. If you accept that dungeons and raids are the only content they can produce at lvl 90 at this point then yea absolutely. They constantly swing between ridiculous changes and never ease anybody into it. Naturally this leads to exactly as you described it, player shock. You can say the same thing about constant talent changes and adjustments. Nerfs and buffs nerfs and buffs. It all becomes a bit to much.

    By the same token what really has changed? In cata we were doing raids and dungeons and quests. In mists we're doing raids and quests. See I like things like pet battles because while the model isn't anything insanely new it is NEW to the world of warcraft. Like if they added a moba bg, that wouldn't necessarily be a new concept but it is somethign new for warcraft. I understand that apparently innovation is outside of the developers ability but it kinda feels like they've even been phoning it in on the whole rob your competitor of his new innovative idea bit. I'm really curious what they're going to add in the next expansion. I never would have figured pet battles. hmmm
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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