1. #2521
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Blackmore View Post
    People need to stop talking about WoW developers like they're making the design decisions. Most of the developers do the work that they're tasked with. Game designers and management make the actual decisions.
    When I say "developers", I include the designers in there, of course. As for the management, Morhaime has a dev background as well.
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  2. #2522
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    You sound proud of the fact that human beings fail at a very simplistic game, human beings like yourself.
    Where did you get this? You seem to be thinking that if I say "X is true", I'm also saying "I'm proud X is true".

    I think we should discuss factual matters purely on the basis of what is or isn't true, and not refrain from recognizing facts just because we might not want them to be true. Wishful denial is no way to go through life, son.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  3. #2523
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Of course easier content trumps everything. Blizzard's response though (thankfully) is "tough."

    Also, when have class rotations ever been difficult? I could probably play my class blindfolded. DBM tells me when I need to move and I have WA that dings when I need to use up blindside.
    None of that matters as they believe anyone with a synapse firing in their brain is superhuman and that they put in hundreds of hours to clear content lol. I have been through this with many applications and talking to people in vent. They won't accept anything you say even with 5.4 hits and raids are difficult because blizzard doesn't nerf them, they will still be here spewing the same things about subs.

    At the benefit dinner I listened to many converstations between players just like gloriouis and Osmeric and they weren't happy at all. Mmo, manaflask.com and other sites were referenced telling them to go their to learn more about their class and rotation even as the casuals said they didn't have time. Zyahrim, a dev, asked the guy who was getting really pissed, how many pets do you have or rare mounts, he had a lot of them so the dev asked if you have time to farm pets/mounts then don't have time to check out your class. Was Epic@!!!! I wish i would have recorded but i was enjoying it too much, the same things that people on here get mad about are many of the same advice that Blizzard gives.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 10:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Where did you get this? You seem to be thinking that if I say "X is true", I'm also saying "I'm proud X is true".

    I think we should discuss factual matters purely on the basis of what is or isn't true, and not refrain from recognizing facts just because we might not want them to be true. Wishful denial is no way to go through life, son.
    Facts that certain bad/casual players fail at a simple game like Wow. Fact other bad players are simply too lazy to change because they feel they are right even their numbers reflect how wrong they are. Or the person who simply believes something even as the game he plays does the opposite, like yourself.

  4. #2524
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Glorious what is is the name of your toon in Wow? What guild is it?
    Why so you can tell me I'm bad? Terrible even? What possible purpose could it serve for you to have that information other than to do exactly as I said? Shift the burden of responsibility for this games current woes onto the individual and off the developers so that they can continue to serve up exactly the kind of raids you like. To dis empower and disenfranchise consumers by labeling them as terrible or "entitled".'

    You sir should consider a career in politics.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-06-28 at 10:42 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #2525
    Quote Originally Posted by Floopa View Post
    Of course easier content trumps everything. Blizzard's response though (thankfully) is "tough."
    And then the quarterly reports come out. In Cataclysm, the devs did remarkable pirouettes in response to those declines. This time, the declines are even worse. Do you think they're going to stick to their guns?

    I think the end result, if WoW declines enough, will be the board removing Morhaime. I don't think this has happened yet because the cow is still delivering cash and they didn't want a revolt of those under him. But WoW is ailing and Blizzard's alternatives aren't looking all that great. The pullback on Titan is significant in this regard, IMO.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  6. #2526
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Facts that certain bad/casual players fail at a simple game like Wow. Fact other bad players are simply too lazy to change because they feel they are right even their numbers reflect how wrong they are. Or the person who simply believes something even as the game he plays does the opposite, like yourself.
    Fact is, if you can't keep players, they quit. And fact is, casual players are a majority. And fact is, if hardcore players quit, no one will mourn them. Hundreds of thousand of casual players, on the other hand...
    Last edited by Tomana; 2013-06-28 at 10:35 PM.
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  7. #2527
    Quote Originally Posted by Boblet View Post
    I never understand people complaining about not being able to do the content. You can do it if you put in the effort and/or time. "It's just a game", goes both ways, if it's just a game why do you care so much about being able to do it? Were people complaining because they never got to kill Bowser and save Peach?
    They didn't have to rely on nine other people to show up at their house every day and play flawlessly with them in order to do that.

  8. #2528
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Facts that certain bad/casual players fail at a simple game like Wow. Fact other bad players are simply too lazy to change because they feel they are right even their numbers reflect how wrong they are. Or the person who simply believes something even as the game he plays does the opposite, like yourself.
    What's bizarre is that you think you're making any kind of compelling argument there. I could stipulate every slander you make there as true, and it wouldn't do a thing to refute what I've been saying.

    ---------- Post added 2013-06-28 at 10:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Fact is, if you can't keep players, they quit. And fact is, casual players are a minority. And fact is, if hardcore players quit, no one will mourn them. Hundreds of thousand of casual players, on the other hand...
    You mean majority.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  9. #2529
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    You mean majority.
    Oops, it's getting close to 1AM here -_-
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  10. #2530
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Facts that certain bad/casual players fail at a simple game like Wow. Fact other bad players are simply too lazy to change because they feel they are right even their numbers reflect how wrong they are. Or the person who simply believes something even as the game he plays does the opposite, like yourself.
    None of those things are facts. The are, in fact, your opinion.

    In my own experience, playing since classic, there are very few truly bad players. And the truly bad players almost never cross paths with good players, except for the occasional LFD.

    I take long breaks from MMO-C and I'm not at all suprised that upon my return, you're still playing the same tired old record.
    Stating an opinion as fact does not make it fact. Opinions are not fact. So don't be stupid and make a fool of yourself by trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

  11. #2531
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Many people did H DW with a 30% nerf which was a joke. You 10 yr old daughter could have easily have died at the beginning of that fight and still got the achievement.
    Got it. So your raiding advice to me is to wait for 30% nerfs and then spam trade for a progressed guild to agree to take me as long as I attempt to stay out of bad stuff and/or die at the beginning of fights. You're right! WoW raiding is a breeze... I don't know why I didn't come to you for raiding advice earlier.

  12. #2532
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I think the end result, if WoW declines enough, will be the board removing Morhaime. I don't think this has happened yet because the cow is still delivering cash and they didn't want a revolt of those under him. But WoW is ailing and Blizzard's alternatives aren't looking all that great. The pullback on Titan is significant in this regard, IMO.
    I'm telling you:
    Rob Pardo.
    Love him or hate him he's in, and Morhaime is out.

  13. #2533
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The developers are under the illusion that it will. My sincere hope is that they be disabused of this as soon as possible for the sake of their livelihood.
    And that illusion gets supported by all the positive feedback of LFR. Blizzard hears that players want more raid content and therefor will continue to focus on raid content and shove it down peoples throats. We cant have alternatives to raiding if the vocal player base keeps saying give me more raids. The five man players lost out in MoP and who knows if they will come back when Blizzard decides to pay attention to five mans again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Blackmore View Post

    In my own experience, playing since classic, there are very few truly bad players. And the truly bad players almost never cross paths with good players, except for the occasional LFD.
    Sadly its the very few that ruin the enjoyment of the others and stuck in players minds of bad experiences. From then on random queue content is designed around the assumption that griefers will be there. Blizzard has continued to make attempts to punish griefers in BGs but wont take action in LFR and even for LFD GC has defended the kick timer lockout being as long as the dungeons themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I think the end result, if WoW declines enough, will be the board removing Morhaime. I don't think this has happened yet because the cow is still delivering cash and they didn't want a revolt of those under him. But WoW is ailing and Blizzard's alternatives aren't looking all that great. The pullback on Titan is significant in this regard, IMO.
    Depends how much can really be blamed on Morhaime without him putting focus on those bellow him. The reset on Titan looks bad but given the new shooters both MMO and not that are coming out, it very well could be a good thing that Titian got reset and can learn from the others and hopefully not have to directly compete with the ones coming out in the next couple of years.
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-06-28 at 11:00 PM.

  14. #2534
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    And that illusion gets supported by all the positive feedback of LFR. Blizzard hears that players want more raid content and therefor will continue to focus on raid content and shove it down peoples throats. We cant have alternatives to raiding if the vocal player base keeps saying give me more raids. The five man players lost out in MoP and who knows if they will come back when Blizzard decides to pay attention to five mans again.
    I'm not convinced we can have meaningful and rewarding alternatives to raiding at all. If you could then people would forsake lfr and raiding as a whole and then raiding would simple be uneconomical again. That's exactly what the developers are saying when they talked about people gearing around patches and not bosses. They were foresaking raiding content to do stuff outside of raids. The developers insist that this wasn't "fun" it was just "effecient' but their definition of fun in this matter should be looked at very closely.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #2535
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Who are you to judge what is or isn't for people to spend their free time on? I don't care if I only get ONE hour of free time per week, if I choose to spend that single hour on a video game (wow specifically) do I not deserve to have fun?
    The "deserves" argument cuts no ice in either direction. You don't deserve much of anything, and neither to the no-lifes or hardcores. What matters is what works, from a game design and business perspective.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  16. #2536
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I'm not convinced we can have meaningful and rewarding alternatives to raiding at all. If you could then people would forsake lfr and raiding as a whole and then raiding would simple be uneconomical again. ... They were foresaking raiding content to do stuff outside of raids.
    This is really the big thing. People (in general) don't raid because it's fun or because it's something they enjoy doing, they do it for gear. Period. All stop. Discussion over. Why the FUCK do they insist on pumping out content that isn't fun. This is a game, for God's sake! By definition, games are meant to be fun!

  17. #2537
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetersenIII View Post
    This is really the big thing. People (in general) don't raid because it's fun or because it's something they enjoy doing, they do it for gear. Period. All stop. Discussion over. Why the FUCK do they insist on pumping out content that isn't fun. This is a game, for God's sake! By definition, games are meant to be fun!
    Actually, those who just go for loot tend not to stick it out too long; they reach a plateau and eventually reach a point where difficulty outweighs the gear benefits. The raiders who keep going are the ones who do it for the buzz of completing the content. And completing the content is killing the last guy on the hardest difficulty. The buzz of the kill makes it fun.

  18. #2538
    Quote Originally Posted by PetersenIII View Post
    This is really the big thing. People (in general) don't raid because it's fun or because it's something they enjoy doing, they do it for gear. Period. All stop. Discussion over. Why the FUCK do they insist on pumping out content that isn't fun. This is a game, for God's sake! By definition, games are meant to be fun!
    Fun depends on the player. Some people think facerolling LFR bosses is fun. I personally find wiping 100+ times to challenging bosses fun.

  19. #2539
    It's funny how the crowd that gets exclusive content wants to take it further. How would you all like it if the lfr crowd, you know the majority, demanded the removal of heroic? LFR does not give achievements, titles, and mounts. Now you want more not to be given out. There's a simple solution to all this: If you hate lfr then do not do it.

    LFR gave the hardcore crowd everything it wanted. You asked for achievements to be given for beating current content, you got it. You wanted harder raids, you got them. You asked for content to be nerfed far less, you got it. You asked for extra content, you got it. Raiding normal or heroic mode is more exclusive at this point then it's ever been.

  20. #2540
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Actually, those who just go for loot tend not to stick it out too long; they reach a plateau and eventually reach a point where difficulty outweighs the gear benefits. The raiders who keep going are the ones who do it for the buzz of completing the content. And completing the content is killing the last guy on the hardest difficulty. The buzz of the kill makes it fun.
    Mmhmm. That's why you don't extend your first raid lock out until the final boss is dead and instead re-kill the same bosses ad nauseam. Because you don't care about gear. Right.

    Also, please note the context of my comment and the material quoted. By Blizzard's own admission, when you give people an opportunity to circumvent raiding the majority do (circumvent raiding). I dunno about you, but I'm not in the habit of circumventing things I find fun. Ergo, the logical conclusion to draw is that the majority of the player base do not raid for fun, the logical conclusion to draw then must be that they raid for loot; those really are the only two options (except masochism, but I refuse to believe the majority of players are masochists: see lack of tanks. =P).

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