1. #1521
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Are you really this dumb or just acting like it? I told you I never even finished all the 5 mans because most of the time I was under the level cap.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    I would do maybe one or two 5 mans per night.
    Your words, not mine... So who's the dumb one here? Also, all of vanilla five-mans were tuned into being leveling content, not endgame content, and were totally doable in questing greens at 55 and onwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Are you not aware that you had to run the same 5 man multiple times to reach the level/gear necessary for the next?
    No, because those were tuned all at the same level of difficulty. You could do the instances in any order and get same quality of gear from all of them. To be 100% honest, Dire Maul was tuned the lowest of the bunch (it was added as level 50-55 instance) while having best gear because it came in last and didn't have any ridiculous shit like spirit on warrior set.


    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I would stop pointing to GW2, because ultimately you're just ignoring that these are two fundamentally different games. GW2 defines "endgame" differently and you're not supposed to "be done" with it after a couple of dungeons. It's a casual game for casual gamers. It's not aimed at raiders who define "endgame" as "raid progression". :P
    I'm pointing to it because GW2 did exactly same endgame for non-raiders as vanilla WoW had, and is widely considered to be failed experiment from PvE perspective since it lacks any real endgame progression just like vanilla WoW did outside of raids.
    Last edited by vesseblah; 2013-06-14 at 08:44 AM.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  2. #1522
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Your words, not mine... So who's the dumb one here?
    You. Read what I wrote again. You're not making one shred of sense.

  3. #1523
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    You. Read what I wrote again.
    Can you explain to me how
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    I would do maybe one or two 5 mans per night.
    can be understood in any other way except that you ran out of instances in a week?

    One or two 5-mans per night means six instances is done in six nights max, three nights minimum. Again, your words, not mine.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  4. #1524
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    can be understood in any other way except that you ran out of instances in a week?
    Yes, if you have trouble understanding such a simple thing, I don't think there's any point continuing this further. You can run the same instances multiple times the same day/week. I know this is a terribly complicated concept for you to grasp.

  5. #1525
    Deleted
    every single blizzard official declaration about sub losses mentioned content being too hard, or people getting older so that they don't have time for organized raiding anymore.
    so they know very well that the majority of the playerbase, despite what the vocal minority of raiders on these forums say, want things like LFD and LFR. the main problem in mop was about dailies (far too much time consuming).

  6. #1526
    Quote Originally Posted by Gniral View Post
    every single blizzard official declaration about sub losses mentioned content being too hard, or people getting older so that they don't have time for organized raiding anymore.
    so they know very well that the majority of the playerbase, despite what the vocal minority of raiders on these forums say, want things like LFD and LFR. the main problem in mop was about dailies (far too much time consuming).
    They also said many of the people that quit never even made it to end game content. Further, LFD and LFR have not stopped the subs from continuously dropping, so they're not some miracle cure that absolutely must be in the game or everything is doomed. The game is simply not meaningful and interesting to casuals anymore, especially given the competition offering more value for less money.

  7. #1527
    About the number of vanilla dungeons:

    You could count Strat as 2 dungeons since most people did either a undead or scarlet run.
    Also please dont compare todays 20min dungeons with those back then. Most of them took at least an hour or more to complete for the average joe.
    Some others even more (complete BRD).

    You usually did not grind those dungeons as you spam them today, you did maybe one a day/evening.
    For me it was enough 5men content back then. Sure, those 5-6 wont be enough today but when was the last time we had such lengthy dungeons? I take BRD over 2-3 20min rush dungeons.
    "A fool's paradise is a wise man's hell!"

    WoW leveling/heroic/LFR difficulty in one line of code:
    do {press (AnyKey)} until MobHealth=0;

  8. #1528
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    They also said many of the people that quit never even made it to end game content. Further, LFD and LFR have not stopped the subs from continuously dropping, so they're not some miracle cure that absolutely must be in the game or everything is doomed. The game is simply not meaningful and interesting to casuals anymore, especially given the competition offering more value for less money.
    subs will continue to drop because the game is old, but without lfr or lfd it would have been far, far worse.
    i don't think it isn't interesting for casuals, but they made a mistake with dailies. there is also a need imo for more challenging non-raid content, proving grounds could be an interesting response to that.

  9. #1529
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Every single player who was interested in doing any instances (which was almost all players during vanilla since the alternative was boring mindless grind in poorly designed 55-60 zones)
    Do you have any hard stats to back that up? My impression was just the opposite.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  10. #1530
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Yes, if you have trouble understanding such a simple thing, I don't think there's any point continuing this further. You can run the same instances multiple times the same day/week. I know this is a terribly complicated concept for you to grasp.
    The issue with Vanilla is that it was very limited in dungeon content at level 60.

    You only did BRD at level 60 for FR gear or possibly for fun (or ironfoe/hoj! /relics when they came out) otherwise you had

    Strat Scholo LBRS/UBRS Two of which were raids (10/15) and took a while to get a group for if you had the key! :P

    The progression for the time was great, you had the dungeon gear (wish dungeon set gear made a come back tbh was a nice idea would well with upgrade system) and then tier raid gear. Later on when more casual players got to max level they could not easily get into raids so the dungeon upgrade gear came out which was a progression path. Still you only had those dungeons and a very lucky pug or two for onyxia. You had PVP and that was it really no daily quests maybe farming materials or playing the AH or possibly crafting skills but really there was not an awful lot to do aside from raiding.

    DM was added much later and was pretty tough still it was nice to have another max level dungeon added.

    For its time Vanilla was great but compared to now its not very good.

    LFR/Flex etc will get better as time goes on as they will improve those features.

    People like preach and his cronies who think exclusive content is great fail to realize from a business POV its madness. If your minority gets all the perks and the majority gets nothing it is just a bad idea. Imagine if back in vanilla raid content got a development budget appropriate to its % players participating. You would find that the quality of the raids (at the time) would be low and there would be outrage. i've done all ends of the spectrum when it comes to raiding and while I dislike the fact heroic raids are not available one day 1 (seriously why not just allow heroic raids from release of the raid?)the overall options for raiding are great.

    LFR will not be removed but will be improved.

  11. #1531
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by khalltusk View Post
    LFR/Flex etc will get better as time goes on as they will improve those features.

    People like preach and his cronies who think exclusive content is great fail to realize from a business POV its madness. If your minority gets all the perks and the majority gets nothing it is just a bad idea. Imagine if back in vanilla raid content got a development budget appropriate to its % players participating. You would find that the quality of the raids (at the time) would be low and there would be outrage. i've done all ends of the spectrum when it comes to raiding and while I dislike the fact heroic raids are not available one day 1 (seriously why not just allow heroic raids from release of the raid?)the overall options for raiding are great.

    LFR will not be removed but will be improved.
    From a business POV its also madness to let everyone consume the content the 1st day its available in LFR.

    LFR will be improved by making it less and less appealing compared to flexiraids.

    Although Blizz stated that they currently have no plans to remove tier-sets from LFR, they sure will make some changes in the next expansion.
    Last edited by mmoc92f6456e78; 2013-06-14 at 05:41 PM.

  12. #1532
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The source is Blizzard statements and actions.

    Confronted with sub losses in early Cataclysm, what did they say?

    "That said, we know there are improvements that we can make in game content. The [level up] content in Cataclysm is some of our best work, but it was consumed quickly compared to our past expansion set, Wrath of the Witch King. Once players reach max level, the end game content in Cataclysm is more difficult. Balancing this content for our diverse player base can be very challenging. Our development team is constantly analyzing the game, and we're continuing to explore ways that we can adjust the game to better satisfy both hardcore and casual players."

    (Morhaime, Q3 2011 conference call)

    And what did they do? They added easy end game content.

    It doesn't require Albert Einstein to connect the dots here and figure out what their data were telling them about why people quit in early Cataclysm.
    More like nerf the shit out of things while still keeping them quick to consume. So now we have the same people saying that casuals are leaving because the content isnt engaging. Dang wonder what happens when you take a nerf bat to everything outside of normal/heroic raiding that involves gear progression that the player base spends the most focus on. MoP screwed the players who sit between the pro-mindless grinders and the hardcore raiders.
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They were hard in the context of LFD, which early Wrath didn't have.
    Blizzard also stopped making max level normal mode dungeons in Cata. Even in WotLK there was QQ posts about the heroics being too hard and these players would end up doing the normal modes, in Cata there was no max level normals for them so into the heroics they went. Add in the solo players who quickly consumed the solo grinds and moved into heroics without an interest in being a team player is a recipe for disaster. It was a combination of changes that lead the the issues with Cata heroics. Blizzard tried to shove too many players into heroics that wouldnt normally have been there and it is the customers who ended up suffering from Blizzards greed, particularly those who like engaging five mans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rami-Gilneas View Post

    Although Blizz stated that they currently have no plans to remove tier-sets from LFR, they sure will make some changes in the next expansion.
    The way GC and CMs respond to why the developers cannot take away the rewards makes it sound like there is regret to making LFR so rewarding. Its what happens when Blizzard removed the tier gear from the vendors in order to get players who did not like raiding into LFR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gniral View Post
    every single blizzard official declaration about sub losses mentioned content being too hard, or people getting older so that they don't have time for organized raiding anymore.
    Lack of content was also declared as an issue and that Blizzard was working hard to pump out patches more frequently. What the players got was one daily hub and two five mans to hold over until Firelands and then wait for another dungeon and raid patch. The developers rushed LFR out an expansion early with a good enough loot system to deal with the lack of content issues they had instead of the usual "we release things when they are ready."
    Last edited by nekobaka; 2013-06-15 at 10:53 PM.

  13. #1533
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    And if blizzard did not provide that catch up, then with every content patch, with every expansion there would be an ever increasing curve on the progression to end-game.
    It would benefit long-term players and hurt the play of any new player, getting worse over time.
    As old players burned out or got bored, and new player progress died then game would die very quckly.
    Blizzard provided a perfect amount of catch up in TBC I feel with the introduction of badge gear in 2.4, and crafted gear via random raid drops.

    It accelerated your progress a ton, but you still also benefited a whole lot from raiding Black Temple...even though Sunwell was the current end game.

    These days, the instant a new raid is released...the previous one may as well be removed from all servers unless you've just dinged 90 on a new character and want as many LFR runs as possible in a week for chances at gear.

  14. #1534
    Calling it exclusive is a poor choice of words. Change the title to "Why does the game offering goals a bad thing to some players?"


    Right now, you do your weekly LFR, and that's it. That's your end game. You can get to that goal within a week, once you level up to 90. There's no adventure or journey to that. You're EXPECTED to do it.

    This is the core fundamental problem with the game. People get through everything too fast, and we're in this weird subscribe->unsubscribe->subscribe trend. There shouldn't be a point where players get bored so quickly they stop playing for periods of time and then the next patch is out and they return. They should be entertained the whole way.

    It's even more hilarious that the players quitting aren't even the ones spending hours a day in game, they are probably even players that spend a few hours a couple days a week at most -_-


    I don't even care about my alts doing LFR anymore. Why am I doing it? So next week I do more DPS or Healing in a raid that already lacks a feeling of accomplishment...

  15. #1535
    Quote Originally Posted by nekobaka View Post
    Blizzard also stopped making max level normal mode dungeons in Cata. Even in WotLK there was QQ posts about the heroics being too hard and these players would end up doing the normal modes, in Cata there was no max level normals for them so into the heroics they went. Add in the solo players who quickly consumed the solo grinds and moved into heroics without an interest in being a team player is a recipe for disaster. It was a combination of changes that lead the the issues with Cata heroics. Blizzard tried to shove too many players into heroics that wouldnt normally have been there and it is the customers who ended up suffering from Blizzards greed, particularly those who like engaging five mans.
    I had forgotten about that, but you're absolutely right. In WotLK there were normal dungeons tuned for players who had just dinged 80 and were still in quest greens with maybe a blue here and there. We completely lost that in Cata. You couldn't even queue for lower level normals from what I remember. I remember being kicked from several groups upon dinging 85 with my shadow priest because I didn't know the boss mechanics and people were still in the go-go-go mode from WotLK so no one wanted to stop and discuss fights beforehand. I adjusted pretty quickly, but the loss in subs indicates that many players didn't bother. The current set of "heroic dungeons" should be "demoted" to normal dungeons and they should rework them into a genuine "heroic" tier of dungeons featuring some of the Cata-style 5-man raid mechanics. Unlike Cata, however the gear rewards should match the difficulty. I don't think that's too much to ask for in terms of a progression path for non-raiders.

    This would also provide a way to "audition" potential recruits. Remember when you could run an applicant through a heroic dungeon to gauge how well they would perform in a raid? If you try that today you're not going to learn anything except how well they can do in speed runs. Something like this would be a win-win for PvEers of all persuasions, IMO.

  16. #1536
    Quote Originally Posted by Harmann View Post
    Blizzard provided a perfect amount of catch up in TBC I feel with the introduction of badge gear in 2.4, and crafted gear via random raid drops.

    It accelerated your progress a ton, but you still also benefited a whole lot from raiding Black Temple...even though Sunwell was the current end game.

    These days, the instant a new raid is released...the previous one may as well be removed from all servers unless you've just dinged 90 on a new character and want as many LFR runs as possible in a week for chances at gear.
    How was it perfect when a vast majority of the raiding playerbase were stuck at T4 for the entire expansion?

    I do agree that things move a bit too fast nowadays. But I don't think TBC was good either.

  17. #1537
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    How was it perfect when a vast majority of the raiding playerbase were stuck at T4 for the entire expansion?

    I do agree that things move a bit too fast nowadays. But I don't think TBC was good either.
    Stuck for an expansion? Quite an stretch. Even the durpy guild I was in back then was able to go into Gruul's Lair and clear that. Still, how is better that your entire playerbase is stuck in the current tier of raids in LFR?

    You're doing one raid for months, with no where else to go. Only difference is one raid is memorable, isn't completed in a weeks, has a sense of accomplishment, and there's a higher ceiling to achieve.



    As for the OP, I'll just put it this way. Go to the Warlock forum, or General forum, and post a thread saying the Warlock questline is too hard. You'll get flamed with every following post. That quest is a goal to work towards, and will be memorable for all the players that complete it. It's also open to ANYONE that wants to try it.

  18. #1538
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    The one thing that people forget is a majority of people who go to things like LFR, and sit afk or do piss poor as far as collective dps or healing, or that healer who is supposed to be healing but queued as healer to get a fast queue so they could dps, are the ones who cry about wanting things like Normal/Heroic mounts added to their list of things that they can get for doing terrible in something thats already rollface content. It baffles me. I read a ways back about this on the WoW forums about someone who posted about the ToT mounts not being in LFR. All the while theyre wearing garbage gear, not gemmed or enchanted, or anything of the sort, or wearing that cloth crafted gear when theyre a warrior....

    Ive never once stepped foot into an LFR since it came out where everyone was pulling their weight like they should be, unless it was a group of my guilds' hToT raiders that I queued into LFR with and steamrolled it. I lag like garbage in 25 mans and LFR ToT is a nightmare for me yet I still manage to make top 5 boss to boss and can't see Durumu's maze and still manage to avoid it. Im glad that they didnt stick the mounts in any LFR other than pets, cause then I'd officially be sad to see someone on a Ji-Kun or Horridon mount when it's obvious they didn't give a damn about their char and most likely didn't contribute as well or even as semi ok that they should have.

    Let's be honest, how many of people who raided DS LFR got sad when they saw that DPS who was doing 11k on Madness get that 2H sword?.. I saw it all too often. (Glad they changed it to individualized gearing)

  19. #1539
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Stuck for an expansion? Quite an stretch. Even the durpy guild I was in back then was able to go into Gruul's Lair and clear that. Still, how is better that your entire playerbase is stuck in the current tier of raids in LFR?
    Small note, Gruul's Lair IS part of T4.

  20. #1540
    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Content was actually getting exclusive at the end of vanilla and TBC due to the lack of catchup mechanisms. Game was clearly divided to people who started at the launch (of the expansion) and who started later. Those who started later were effectively denied the content of later patches.
    Not true at all. I picked up the game after a long hiatus in around patch 2.4, and between badge gear, Magister's Terrace, Karazhan/Gruuls/ZA PuGs...I was able to get myself into a Sunwell raiding guild within a month of account reactivation. Even better was that because of how Blizzard handled the progression of ilvls, my guild could still run Hyjal/BT and get tons of upgrades for tons of players. I made it so that we were never stuck raiding the same thing over and over, but also weren't wasting time by changing it up now and then and giving people a break from Sunwell progression.

    It also had the added benefit of keeping Sunwell special and epic feeling. We weren't just capping all the bosses on normal mode if heroic was too hard. Every time we ran up against a new boss, it was the first time any of us had seen it.

    That's a powerful feeling, and one that's sorely missing in the game now. By the time you begin Heroic attempt #1 on a new boss...you've already killed it 12+ times in normal mode, and a bunch of times in LFR possibly too.

    There's no awe inspiring moments anymore because of that.

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