Why is Exclusive content a bad thing to some people?

[Ferocity]

You could read one of my other posts to figure out why it affects me greatly. They're quite detailed, just scroll up. I also have no problem with easier content like Flex Mode, it's LFR which can be AFKed that affects me greatly.

There was very nice post on official US forums:

The other side of the coin is that I am very grateful to Blizzard for making the lower end of content accessible to players like myself who are disabled with a disease that makes it difficult to play. I have chronic fatigue, numbness to my fingers, and chronic joint pain. I am the "demented monkey" you speak of; and for me LFR is fun.

It's obviously a good business decision to make content accessible to the vast majority of players like myself who aren't able to devote as much time to the game due to lack of energy, ability or other commitments.

It really is just a game. It's cool that you are talented enough to be or have been one of the top players at one time...but it really IS just a game. Perhaps it's just time to find a new challenge in gaming or in real life. Perhaps something entirely different.

People who have intense work, they would understand the nature of fatigue and it's various sides, and would agree with poster greatly. RPG, as a genre, was always a relaxing gaming activity after work in such cases. However, with what is being done to game, it is basically denying any serious character progression to the player, who has enough pressure in real-life. If you want LFR to go, then heroic modes should go away too, and in any case - Arcade elements should leave this game or you won't see state of community ever improving.

P.S.: Oh once again speaking of Arcade elements. It is just so happened that those are enjoyed mostly by people with high adrenaline, who aren't really good in social interactions. Probably this is one of reasons why we have no Super Mario Arcade MMO and why current arcade based MMOs aren't really successful. People can speak of "exclusivity" all they want, but then they shouldn't complain about the sad state of community.

[Dreknar20]

However, despite this, Blizzard still heavily encourages Heroic Raiders to run LFR, for Titan Runestones on bosses we sat for, or the occasional upgrade which does happen quite frequently.

Something Blizzard tried to evliviate with certain changes......
Cept now this Flex mode is adding all those problems back in

[Frogged]

There was very nice post on official US forums:

People who have intense work, they would understand the nature of fatigue and it's various sides, and would agree with poster greatly. RPG, as a genre, was always a relaxing gaming activity after work in such cases. However, with what is being done to game, it is basically denying any serious character progression to the player, who has enough pressure in real-life. If you want LFR to go, then heroic modes should go away too, and in any case - Arcade elements should leave this game or you won't see state of community ever improving.

P.S.: Oh once again speaking of Arcade elements. It is just so happened that those are enjoyed mostly by people with high adrenaline, who aren't really good in social interactions. Probably this is one of reasons why we have no Super Mario Arcade MMO and why current arcade based MMOs aren't really successful. People can speak of "exclusivity" all they want, but then they shouldn't complain about the sad state of community.

I totally understand that's where some people are coming from, and would love to support them! That's why I want to keep LFR as it is, but remove all loot and incentives, so people who want to see the content can do so. The issue is that it's part of the progression path of a normal player instead of an alternative to fit some people's needs, like the one above.

Edit: You could even have LFR drop purely cosmetic rewards so people do feel like their character is moving forward. Armor akin to challenge mode sets that can be transmogged. If they aren't moving past LFR, the lack of stats shouldn't affect them, and they can still feel the progression.

Perhaps even keep the loot but severely reduce it's ilevel, so the progression path isn't affected by it. There are tons of alternatives that work, but Heroics > LFR > Normals isn't one that's currently working.

Optimizing your game can sometimes take extra amounts of effort, strangely enough.

You're absolutely right and I would argue that I have no issues with this statement. What I do have an issue with is that the way this is accomplished is through LFR. There could be options and alternatives that are much, much more rewarding for everyone involved. I'm not claiming Blizzard never does anything right, or that I shouldn't have to do extra work as a Heroic raider. I'm saying LFR is not the best way to fulfill that "extra work" requirement, for anyone. Especially when there are no alternatives.

[Horizon]

This one is easy, everyone wants to believe they are the shits, pro as can be, Everyone! Exclusive content may prove them wrong and that would make them sad and unsubscribe -> less dineros to blizzard

[Dreknar20]

Optimizing your game can sometimes take extra amounts of effort, strangely enough.

and if that extra effort is other forms of content (dailies/scenarios/whatever) then thats all fine by me
Cept these flex mode isnt, its the same exact thing of something we already do.
Raiders being bored thus giving them a raid thats the exact thing in all aspects of what they already do isnt helpful

[Deleted]

The amount of people in this thread without jobs or any other life engagements is too damn high. That's all I can say.

[Dreknar20]

I'm saying LFR is not the best way to fulfill that "extra work" requirement, for anyone. Especially when there are no alternatives.

LFR or flex mode "fullfillying the extra work" req is the absolute worse idea. It makes zero sense.
Raiders are bored
Blizz- well here is this raid to supplement your playtime
A new raid?
Blizz - Nope, its the same exact fucking thing of what you already do. Same exact bosses, same exact environment, same exact loot models.
How is that helpful?

---------- Post added 2013-06-09 at 09:03 AM ----------

The amount of people in this thread without jobs or any other life engagements is too damn high. That's all I can say.

The "no life" argument. Used by people who have no argument

[Frogged]

The amount of people in this thread without jobs or any other life engagements is too damn high. That's all I can say.

It's bad for those people who can't get in. It's good for those people who can, so they can feel special.

So many assumptions. All from people who feel like they're lower on some totem pole that they made up for themselves. There may be a few people in the thread that are supporting your claims, but that isn't true about everyone who wants to see challenging content. You can read any of my posts to see the situation from a player that recognizes where everyone else is coming from. I don't make assumptions about them or insult them, I approach the situation rationally. Making sweeping generalizations like this is a bit hurtful and untrue.

[Phasma]

It's so crazy that people don't complain about Gladiator titles in PvP. That's what you would call exclusive content. That drives people to get high ratings, believe it or not. Imagine if everyone could get Gladiator titles for PvPing once a week. Imagine everyone being able to face the top PvPers in the world and were given a buff so they could kill them on an easier difficulty. Who would be driven to do arenas then? Oh, and don't think for a second that PvP gear changes made in MoP didn't drive a bunch of players away.

[Kaleredar]

You're absolutely right and I would argue that I have no issues with this statement. What I do have an issue with is that the way this is accomplished is through LFR. There could be options and alternatives that are much, much more rewarding for everyone involved. I'm not claiming Blizzard never does anything right, or that I shouldn't have to do extra work as a Heroic raider. I'm saying LFR is not the best way to fulfill that "extra work" requirement, for anyone. Especially when there are no alternatives.

and if that extra effort is other forms of content (dailies/scenarios/whatever) then thats all fine by me
Cept these flex mode isnt, its the same exact thing of something we already do.
Raiders being bored thus giving them a raid thats the exact thing in all aspects of what they already do isnt helpful

So you agree it should take work, just... not the kind of work you don't want to do?

That could be argued for any avenue they'd want you to take.

You mentioned dailies. People have already said how much they hate dailies. And bonus rolls, and all that other stuff.

If you want the best, you put in the effort, whatever it may be. That's just the way it works. Why remove the option to do something for someone that's willing to put in more work than you are?

It's so crazy that people don't complain about Gladiator titles in PvP. That's what you would call exclusive content. That drives people to get high ratings, believe it or not. Imagine if everyone could get Gladiator titles for PvPing once a week. Imagine everyone being able to face the top PvPers in the world. Who would be driven to do arenas then? Oh, and don't think for a second that PvP gear changes made in MoP didn't drive a bunch of players away.

And yet people can still fight in the same arena and battleground maps that top ranked PvP players do, just against less skilled opponents.

I think you're shooting yourself in the foot here.

[Phasma]

And yet people can still fight in the same arena and battleground maps that top ranked PvP players do, just against less skilled opponents.

I think you're shooting yourself in the foot here.

Oh, but they aren't the same encounters. I want to face Reckful on easy difficulty mode, please. That's a dead on comparison to the attitude of PvE players that want accessibility.

[Frogged]

Well, I quoted that part that was odd to me, obviously just by not adressing every point in every post you have to assume I didn't read them. You know the part where you think LFR afkers affect you.

So again, I will quote parts and still have read the rest ^^

For the part of what Blizzard"enforces on heroic raiders" - that discussion will never be solved. Some will always feel forced, others can and do decide differently.

I will have to play the card that you do not know what people want LFR To be. What a sweeping generalisation to say they don't want to progress their character. Ofc they do...they have proven it already by levelling to 90. And ofc you progress your character through dailies, through world drops, through 5 man, through scenarios and ofc through the different LFR tiers.

Remove loot from LFR so it is just a way to see content won't happen either. I guess you can just watch a youtube video in that case...or Blizzard can just put it into a cinematic.

You are correct that I should have refined my statement to say "progress their characters deeper into raiding." I apologize. About removing loot from LFR, people have already claimed that they would rather see bosses with their own eyes than watch it on YouTube, which is where the cosmetic (or very low ilevel) loot comes into play. If players don't want to progress their characters deeper into raiding (by starting up Normal mode) then their loot is essentially cosmetic already. The ilevel doesn't affect them, but it does affect other people.

So no, removing current-tier level loot from LFR wouldn't be the same as forcing everyone to watch YouTube.

So you agree it should take work, just... not the kind of work you don't want to do?

That could be argued for any avenue they'd want you to take.

You mentioned dailies. People have already said how much they hate dailies. And bonus rolls, and all that other stuff.

If you want the best, you put in the effort, whatever it may be. That's just the way it works. Why remove the option to do something for someone that's willing to put in more work than you are?

You're misunderstanding me. I do everything to keep my character top-notch and will never complain that I have to do so. I'm simply trying to find a way that's more fun for everyone. I'm not saying I don't want to have to do content. I'll run LFR gladly, it can be fun with friends because I enjoy their company. I still think there's a better way to set up the whole situation.

[Kaleredar]

Oh, but they aren't the same encounters. I want to face Reckful on easy difficulty mode, please.

Then go fight some scrub PvPer named Яêckfül.

It'll be easier, you wont have access to the best gear by defeating him, it occurs on the same map in which you could fight the real Reckful... How many rounds are you going to lodge in your foot, exactly?

[Kaleredar]

You're misunderstanding me. I do everything to keep my character top-notch and will never complain that I have to do so. I'm simply trying to find a way that's more fun for everyone. I'm not saying I don't want to have to do content. I'll run LFR gladly, it can be fun with friends because I enjoy their company. I still think there's a better way to set up the whole situation.

I was also talking to the other guy I quoted.

But on that note, Blizzard doesn't "design" things like LFR, dailies, and yadda yadda to be "required avenues," they design them to be what they are, and, for people that don't have them as the only content to pursue, little bonuses. But people instantly hop on those bonuses as being required. And people will instantly jump on the most efficient way of acquiring them as the only "possible" way. For instance, it's completely viable to grind up lesser charms of fortune through nothing but pet battles. And yet people don't often see that as a "possible" solution, they maintain that dailies are "the only way."

[nekobaka]

Well so sorry, but people with time constraints and RL responsibilities, or simply hate "raiding", would like to advance their gear too you know? Gear advancement (or more accurately character advancement; but in WoW gear is the only form of character advancement @ level cap) is the main point of games like these.

Okay so why do players who hate raiding have to advance their gear by raiding? Why cant these players have other methods of similar efforts that are not raiding and something they actually enjoy? Why are these players forcing themselves to do LFR if they dont like group based content like raiding? Why are players defending players doing shit they dont enjoy doing for the sake of gear?

[Deleted]

So many assumptions. All from people who feel like they're lower on some totem pole that they made up for themselves. There may be a few people in the thread that are supporting your claims, but that isn't true about everyone who wants to see challenging content. You can read any of my posts to see the situation from a player that recognizes where everyone else is coming from. I don't make assumptions about them or insult them, I approach the situation rationally. Making sweeping generalizations like this is a bit hurtful and untrue.

It's not about challenging content. There is challenging content. It's about exclusive content. And that does not mean heroic difficulty bosses. It means bosses like Algalon, Sinestra and Ra-Den. It means raids like the old Naxxramas and Sunwell, that people, who only spend a couple of hours a week playing, because they can't and didn't want to spend so much time on this game, because other things are more important to them, would never see. And by "seeing" I mean "fighting against them when it was actually current content". Not watching a video on youtube of someone else killing it or going back to that raid one or two expansions later.

[Horizon]

Then go fight some scrub PvPer named Яêckfül.

It'll be easier, you wont have access to the best gear by defeating him, it occurs on the same map in which you could fight the real Reckful... How many rounds are you going to lodge in your foot, exactly?

and if I can kill Яêckfül while AFK'ing I will go to the forums and cry for nerf!

[Frogged]

I was also talking to the other guy I quoted.

But on that note, Blizzard doesn't "design" things like LFR, dailies, and yadda yadda to be "required avenues," they design them to be what they are, and, for people that don't have them as the only content to pursue, little bonuses. But people instantly hop on those bonuses as being required. And people will instantly jump on the most efficient way of acquiring them as the only "possible" way. For instance, it's completely viable to grind up lesser charms of fortune through nothing but pet battles. And yet people don't often see that as a "possible" solution, they maintain that dailies are "the only way."

Right, and I think us hopping on those bonuses as being required is the issue. It's mucking up the game for everyone. Unfortunately, that's something that won't change, as it's just an approach to the game, much like playing casually is. Whether they designed it that way or not, we've now run into an issue. It's in Blizzard's interest to separate the two groups of players and it's also their responsibility. You can't tell one type of player they're wrong.

So, some division of content should happen. An easy solution to that would be no requirement to run LFR for Titan Runestones or gear. Have LFR drop cosmetic items or items that are reduced ilevel so that players still feel progression but it's not at the cost of other people.

People who do have time to dedicate to the raiding progression path can do 5-mans > Flex > Normal > Heroic. People who do not have time to dedicate to raiding progression can run 5-mans > LFR > Maybe even Flex or Normal. The important part is the fact that LFR isn't a part of the first progression path.

Rather than forcing every system on everyone who plays the game (whether intentional or not), they could recognize the division in their playerbase and create a division within types of content. You reach the fork in the road and decide if you have the time or not and choose your path. Blizzard loves to think that this is how LFR currently is, but it's not. That's why there are so many LFR threads that pop up. Nobody cares one way or the other if casuals run LFR. It's that it directly affects us that's an issue.

I personally don't find Mining very fun, but you don't see thousands of threads a day asking Blizzard to remove Mining because it's not fun. That's because Mining is entirely optional. Some people love it! It shouldn't be removed from the game, but it also shouldn't be forced on everyone.

[Kaleredar]

Right, and I think us hopping on those bonuses as being required is the issue. It's mucking up the game for everyone. Unfortunately, that's something that won't change, as it's just an approach to the game, much like playing casually is. Whether they designed it that way or not, we've now run into an issue. It's in Blizzard's interest to separate the two groups of players and it's also their responsibility. You can't tell one type of player they're wrong.

So, some division of content should happen. An easy solution to that would be no requirement to run LFR for Titan Runestones or gear. Have LFR drop cosmetic items or items that are reduced ilevel so that players still feel progression but it's not at the cost of other people.

People who do have time to dedicate to the raiding progression path can do 5-mans > Flex > Normal > Heroic. People who do not have time to dedicate to raiding progression can run 5-mans > LFR. The important part is the fact that LFR isn't a part of the first progression path.

Rather than forcing every system on everyone who plays the game (whether intentional or not), they could recognize the division in their playerbase and create a division within types of content. You reach the fork in the road and decide if you have the time or not and choose your path.

Except that produces a problem for people who want to raid, but can't, and are merely waiting on the opportunity to. It effectively prevents them from raiding, as they have no realistic method in which to acquire the item level sufficient enough to eek their way into PuGs or even guilds. Heroic Dungeons wouldn't be good enough (they certainly aren't now,) and if LFR offers even remotely viable raiding gear, even entrance level, there will always be some crop of raiders that deem it "necessary" to run ad nauseum.

[Frogged]

Except that produces a problem for people who want to raid, but can't, and are merely waiting on the opportunity to. It effectively prevents them from raiding, as they have no realistic method in which to acquire the item level sufficient enough to eek their way into PuGs or even guilds. Heroic Dungeons wouldn't be good enough (they certainly aren't now,) and if LFR offers even remotely viable raiding gear, even entrance level, there will always be some crop of raiders that deem it "necessary" to run ad nauseum.

You're right in the current iteration, but ilevels could easily be smoothed out from 5-mans > Flex > Normals > Heroics. I'm not proposing that we keep ilevels exactly the same and make the LFR/Flex swap. That would be incredibly stupid and make the path harder than it should be for a majority of people. I'm saying LFR should be removed from the progression path, and then the progression path should be smoothed out afterward to work correctly so that you can go from 5-mans > Flex > Normal > Heroic without having ilevel problems.