Why is Exclusive content a bad thing to some people?

[Doombringer]

What we do know is that LFD/LFR did not make the game wildly popular, and further, that the game without those features was much more popular than it is today. That does not prove causality of course (to shut up all the "hurrdurr correlation does not imply causation" drones), but it does prove that it's possible to be more successful without LFR/LFD than with them.

It is difficult to pin down LFR as being the cause of the subscription loss. Time has passed, plus a lot about the game has changed (from talents, to theme, to how classes play)... any one of these can be the cause of subscriber loss. Unless you have hard data, i.e. a departing player saying "LFR is why I quit" then it's entirely subjective.

Anecdotal "data": Many of my guildmates left WoW in Cata to play SWTOR for a change of pace. Few have returned to WoW. Fewer still have stayed with SWTOR -- altogether, they've simply moved on to other things. None of this was caused by LFR.

[Austilias]

Entitlement is a propaganda word. It's used to disparage and disempower the average player. Apparently, in this mindset, requiring that a consumer product actually satisfy oneself is asking too much.

That implies I am not myself an average player. The furthest I raided in TBC was Karazhan and the occasional Gruul's Lair. I joined WoW not because the game catered to me, but because I wanted to cater myself to the game. I accepted my limitations and had my best experiences of WoW at that time regardless. I have since learned that this is not a common/pervasive strain of thought among the WoW playerbase, which is quite a shame. Subjective though the term 'quality' is, I believe it has lead to a considerable reduction in it with respect to WoW as a game.

[Nekovivie]

The voice of "I pay the same money, I want the same shit" is louder than the voice suggesting otherwise.

It's sad that's the way it is though.

[khalltusk]

Which brings us all the way round to the title of the thread "Why is exclusive content a bad thing to some people?"

Exclusive content game-design means that it doesnt matter if they budget so much towards the endgame raiding because its the exclusivity of those raids within the game which adds overall value to the game itself. In otherwords, the fact that there is an almost unreachable finale to the expansion actually keeps more players content than allowing everyone to 'see' all of this content (through something like LFR).

Exclusive content gives everyone something to aim at for the duration of the entire expansion. LFR is proving that spoonfeeding the content to everyone without asking them to perform any effort whatsoever is devaluing the content.

Thats my opinion anyway...

For a personal experience back in Vanilla before I raided it did make me want to raid. But I can't pin it on everyone else to have the same reasons.

As i said before raids cannot justify having THAT large a budget. You would either have to take that budget away from raids and put it into content others will play (lets face if you're not leveling and at max level you will want something to do) Thankfuly rather than take away raid budget and reducing quality they instead went the route of opening up raids to more players. Of course this won't make everyone happy. I think with time they can further adjust it to hit that sweet spot in raiding where we can get more people raiding and for longer.

For me I do LFR as I choose not to donate a large portion of my time to heroic raiding like i used (part IRL stuff part not wanting to put that much effort into it) while I know LFR is quite easy and have not done much of ToT, I do like the fact I can pick it up when I want. Transmog does suck up a lot of my time though bloody thing that it is.

[Deleted]

Yes it had larger subs prior to LFR thing is LFR came out with dragon soul and Cata was losing subs with a FAR more hardcore setup than wrath had. The raids and dungeons prior to the nerfs were brutal compared to anything in wrath. Hardmodes in wrath aside that is. So LFR is not the proof that the game was more popular as the decline happened prior to LFR its just continued that downward trend afterwards.

My line of thinking is not useless as you've not disproven or proven anything. Like I said I think theres a few factors that accounts for sub falls but regardless its all opinion. The fact more F2p games exist and are very popular gives some ammunition to this theory.

I define raiding by playing with friends in large groups. LFR allows me to "raid" but not to the level I used to prior. A lot of people never raided prior to the implementation of LFR. For good or bad it has allowed more people to raid than ever before. It in my eyes is the same as any other game with a difficulty level. You choose between easy medium and hard. Same thing in wow. I am hoping flex gives me more of a challenge but still allowing me to play with my friends. I won't ever go back to hardcore raiding as I dont fancy putting that much effort into raiding anymore (by effort I mean time).

Raiding is one of those things though some people think only "the super cool hardcore are allowed" Well if thats the case since the super hardcore make up a vastly smaller amount then raids should receive the smallest budget. Then leveling/questing can receive more as can dungeons etc. This would be a disaster for those people wishing to raid.

The thing is, that LFR is preventing (new) people from getting to know what real rading means: being in TS with other people, overcoming challenges, coordinat your actions, having impact on the success.

LFR provides none of these, just the rewards in epics and kills.

But those are the things that engage you in the raiding content in the first place, not the kills and epics. If you taste real raiding, you will stick to it for longer then if you just experience the content via LFR.

[Osmeric]

I have since learned that this is not a common/pervasive strain of thought among the WoW playerbase, which is quite a shame. Subjective though the term 'quality' is, I believe it has lead to a considerable reduction in it with respect to WoW as a game.

So, your problem is that other people aren't like you, and that your personal preferences define what the game should be?

It's a shame for you, but like your opinion, that's feeling is entirely subjective.

[khalltusk]

The thing is, that LFR is preventing (new) people from getting to know what real rading means: being in TS with other people, overcoming challenges, coordinat your actions, having impact on the success.

LFR provides none of these, just the rewards in epics and kills.

This is the thing, does it really impact it or not? The main reason I can see for people not stepping up from LFR to normal raiding would be : I have already beaten that raid! Why should I go and do normal?

Which I agree could be an issue if people don't see better gear and a more challenge as a reason to take the step up. Thing is most of the people in LFR would never have raided in anyway looking at historical numbers the numbers of people raiding general is just a tiny fraction of the playerbase. It is indeed a double edge sword.

Thats why I think LFR will see changes to improve it and other raid modes hopefully will bring some more incentives to get people into going up to that level.

[Osmeric]

It's sad that's the way it is though.

You use the passive voice to present your subjective opinion as an objective fact.

[Deleted]

So, your problem is that other people aren't like you, and that your personal preferences define what the game should be?

It's a shame for you, but like your opinion, that's feeling is entirely subjective.

wow, do you want to post now under everyone to notify them that their post is their opionion? what do you think forums are for? sry, but mind sticking to the topic instead of destracting? thank you

[Osmeric]

wow, do you want to post now under everyone to notify them that their post is their opionion? what do you think forums are for? sry, but mind sticking to the topic instead of destracting? thank you

Actually, there are perfectly good ways of stating subjective opinions. Stating something "is good" or "is bad" is not one of them. It looks like you're talking about some objective feature of reality, or some commonly agreed to ethics, with the expectation that everyone else will conform to it.

[Ferocity]

But those are the things that engage you in the raiding content in the first place, not the kills and epics. If you taste real raiding, you will stick to it for longer then if you just experience the content via LFR.

Maybe, but in bad sense of the word. And as time passes, it becomes worse. You gonna stick to raiding "for longer than LFR" for a simple reason - out of fear. Consciously or subconsciously. Fear of missing on attendance and getting benched, fear of getting break from game and then finding yourself abandoned and never catching up, fear of getting replaced, and so on.

With raid design paradigm change, and abuse of "new" arcade mechanics, we are embracing new "generation" of successful raiders. Reaction times/adrenaline-based/enrage-restricted encounters are halting any sane social interaction in game even more, giving us such abominations as nerdrage, etc., which existed previously too, but never had such a pro-motion behind them as now. Chill paced raiding with friends/family is unwanted nowadays. I saw all ends of raiding in each WoW expansion, and lately it kept eroding to something, what many people don't want to deal with.

But thankfully, we have LFR, which people can do without fear and, if they can't stand attitude in chat, can simply close chat or requeue, unlike other raid modes. Age of "real" raiding has passed with advance of various "elite" modes and abuse of arcade mechanics.

[Phasma]

Actually, there are perfectly good ways of stating subjective opinions. Stating something "is good" or "is bad" is not one of them. It looks like you're talking about some objective feature of reality, or some commonly agreed to ethics, with the expectation that everyone else will conform to it.

I hope you understand that you are doing the exact thing you are speaking against.

[Deleted]

Maybe, but in bad sense of the word. And as time passes, it becomes worse. You gonna stick to raiding "for longer than LFR" for a simple reason - out of fear. Consciously or subconsciously. Fear of missing on attendance and getting benched, fear of getting break from game and then finding yourself abandoned and never catching up, fear of getting replaced, and so on.

With raid design paradigm change, and abuse of "new" arcade mechanics, we are embracing new "generation" of successful raiders. Reaction times/adrenaline-based/enrage-restricted encounters are halting any sane social interaction in game even more, giving us such abominations as nerdrage, etc., which existed previously too, but never had such a pro-motion behind them as now. Chill paced raiding with friends/family is unwanted nowadays. I saw all ends of raiding in each WoW expansion, and lately it kept eroding to something, what many people don't want to deal with.

But thankfully, we have LFR, which people can do without fear and, if they can't stand attitude in chat, can simply close chat or requeue, unlike other raid modes. Age of "real" raiding has passed with advance of various "elite" modes and abuse of arcade mechanics.

There are a lot of normal and socializable guilds out there, at least on german servers. If you are afraid of raiding then of course it's not for you, at least not on a competitiv level. And that's ok. But going to the other extrem and run in total anonymity without any sort of challenge is something I would never recommend anyone.

Every decent raiding guild understands it when their raiders take time off for a few months and most of them are happy when you come back and join them again. Lack of gear is also not a problem in these guilds.

How is this working out for you, trading in this great feeling when you finaly downed a boss that kept you wiping for some time and cheering on teamspeak for this guaranteed victory farm runs on LFR? Part of beeing a mature raider is accepting the fact that there are times when you have to step away from the game and you will miss a tier or two. Once you realize that this is also not the end of all things, you won't feel this fear you stated anymore.

One more edit: the discussion is not even about you. It's about new players who have never experienced real raiding. You obviously have and if you decide it's not for you anymore then that's totally fine.

[vesseblah]

Entitlement. It began when people began thinking that their subscription fee entitled them to see/do everything in the game, rather than merely granting them access to a server, the right to make an avatar, enter the world and progress in accordance with one's own merits. This mindset is fortunately rarely encountered beyond MMORPGs.

Guess why's that? Because every other game made in last 20 years has had selectable difficulty besides MMORPG's so there's no need to ask for these more casual friendly changes. It's not rocket surgery to figure that one out.

[khalltusk]

There are a lot of normal and socializable guilds out there, at least on german servers. If you are afraid of raiding then of course it's not for you, at least not on a competitiv level. And that's ok. But going to the other extrem and run in total anonymity without any sort of challenge is something I would never recommend anyone.

Every decent raiding guild understands it when their raiders take time off for a few months and most of them are happy when you come back and join them again. Lack of gear is also not a problem in these guilds.

How is this working out for you, trading in this great feeling when you finaly downed a boss that kept you wiping for some time and cheering on teamspeak for this guaranteed victory farm runs on LFR? Part of beeing a mature raider is accepting the fact that there are times when you have to step away from the game and you will miss a tier or two. Once you realize that this is also not the end of all things, you won't feel this fear you stated anymore.

One more edit: the discussion is not even about you. It's about new players who have never experienced real raiding. You obviously have and if you decide it's not for you anymore then that's totally fine.

As a former raider it was something I had come to realize that I just don't want to put the time into that. For that i am glad I can still see the content (albeit on a super easy setting but I still have fun doing especially when its a bad group and we wipe a lot as its more of a challenge to down the boss :P)

For new players its a different situation. We hardly had new players in large numbers go into raiding (by this I mean from the % of players total). We have more people seeing the raid content but still only X amount doing Normal raiding.

Part of the issue I think was 10 and 25 having the same difficulty level. It should have been left the way it was back in Wrath. With 10man being the slightly less difficult level and 25 being the Harder variant. Flex does go some way to address this but is it enough?

[Deleted]

As a former raider it was something I had come to realize that I just don't want to put the time into that. For that i am glad I can still see the content (albeit on a super easy setting but I still have fun doing especially when its a bad group and we wipe a lot as its more of a challenge to down the boss :P)

For new players its a different situation. We hardly had new players in large numbers go into raiding (by this I mean from the % of players total). We have more people seeing the raid content but still only X amount doing Normal raiding.

Part of the issue I think was 10 and 25 having the same difficulty level. It should have been left the way it was back in Wrath. With 10man being the slightly less difficult level and 25 being the Harder variant. Flex does go some way to address this but is it enough?

I rather have /flex came out instead of LFR, but now we'll have to wait and see if people make the jump.

One more thing: if you wipe and wipe in LFR then it gets easier and easier to down the bosses because of the buff Blizzard implemented. Apparently even LFR is too difficult in itself ^^

[LeperHerring]

Yes it had larger subs prior to LFR thing is LFR came out with dragon soul and Cata was losing subs with a FAR more hardcore setup than wrath had. The raids and dungeons prior to the nerfs were brutal compared to anything in wrath. Hardmodes in wrath aside that is. So LFR is not the proof that the game was more popular as the decline happened prior to LFR its just continued that downward trend afterwards.

Your last sentence makes no sense. Also the tightness of tuning to me is a side issue, Cata continued with the WotLK model. Just because it was more tightly tuned for a while does not mean it went back to the TBC model.

My line of thinking is not useless as you've not disproven or proven anything. Like I said I think theres a few factors that accounts for sub falls but regardless its all opinion. The fact more F2p games exist and are very popular gives some ammunition to this theory.

I've disproven the claim the LFR/LFD must be kept in the game, which is often made.

I define raiding by playing with friends in large groups. LFR allows me to "raid" but not to the level I used to prior. A lot of people never raided prior to the implementation of LFR. For good or bad it has allowed more people to raid than ever before. It in my eyes is the same as any other game with a difficulty level. You choose between easy medium and hard. Same thing in wow. I am hoping flex gives me more of a challenge but still allowing me to play with my friends. I won't ever go back to hardcore raiding as I dont fancy putting that much effort into raiding anymore (by effort I mean time).

Fine, I simply disagree. What you and other LFR players are doing is not "raiding" in the sense that I understand raiding. It's more a mechanism to "see the content" without actually having to raid to do so.

Raiding is one of those things though some people think only "the super cool hardcore are allowed" Well if thats the case since the super hardcore make up a vastly smaller amount then raids should receive the smallest budget. Then leveling/questing can receive more as can dungeons etc. This would be a disaster for those people wishing to raid.

Which people? Can you name some? I'm not "super cool hardcore", but personally I'm fine with Blizzard setting aside a small budget to make TBC style progression content. It might bring me back to the game if it's interesting enough. The current WoW does not attract me in any way as a casual nor as a "hardcore".

[khalltusk]

I rather have /flex came out instead of LFR, but now we'll have to wait and see if people make the jump.

One more thing: if you wipe and wipe in LFR then it gets easier and easier to down the bosses because of the buff Blizzard implemented. Apparently even LFR is too difficult in itself ^^

now it does yeh back when I was doing the previous tier we had no such buff.

I am hoping flex is really good. I've spoken to some guys in my guild and im trying to see if we can organize a night a week (like a friday or something) where we do a fun raid. we will no doubt to LFR as well but basically for those of us who want a bit more of a challenge and some chilled out raiding this might be what we've been missing.

[Ronduwil]

The thing is, that LFR is preventing (new) people from getting to know what real rading means: being in TS with other people, overcoming challenges, coordinat your actions, having impact on the success.

I never experienced such a phenomena, but maybe that's because I wasn't a new player. If this is the case they should fix LFR so that it doesn't kick new players from their guild, kill their Teamspeak/Vent/Mumble clients, and lock them out of normal/heroic raids. I have no objection to fixing those grievous issues. What were they thinking, designing LFR to prevent new players from raiding?

[Nekovivie]

You use the passive voice to present your subjective opinion as an objective fact.

It is true. If everything can be achieved/unlocked by someone who plays 2 hours a week, then there is no motivation for the guy who plays 20 hours a week to continue at that pace.