Edward Snowden identified as source of NSA leaks

[StayTuned]

you demand as much safety as possible? sooo you want to be locked up in a bunker?

If houses could be as safe as bunkers and not as ugly as one, I'd live in them in a heartbeat.


The government has to identify threats before they can act. I don't like being blown to bits, so if they can identify incoming attacks by listening to a conversation, so be it. But I can't tell them "but don't listen to me". It's either all of us, or none.

I advocate more transparency. I want my government to stop with those constant lies. Be upfront about what you are doing, and then we can go and democratically change something if the majority has such a huge issue with it.

[Austilias]

I advocate more transparency. I want my government to stop with those constant lies. Be upfront about what you are doing, and then we can go and democratically change something if the majority has such a huge issue with it.

Unfortunately we don't live in a dream world. You either trust what are inevitably corrupt governments with your private/public information, or you don't. Frankly, there's been more than enough evidence to err in favour of the latter.

[StayTuned]

Unfortunately we don't live in a dream world. You either trust what are inevitably corrupt governments with your private/public information, or you don't. Frankly, there's been more than enough evidence to err in favour of the latter.

Again, it's all or nothing. If you chose nothing, you also forfeit safety on a higher level. Don't cry for the government when the next major shit happens.

I don't have an issue with either. It's a personal choice to either trust or distrust your government. I don't trust them 100%, but I know that they do keep me safe from attacks on my soil.

[Mayhem]

Again, it's all or nothing. If you chose nothing, you also forfeit safety on a higher level. Don't cry for the government when the next major shit happens.

I don't have an issue with either. It's a personal choice to either trust or distrust your government. I don't trust them 100%, but I know that they do keep me safe from attacks on my soil.

don´t cry for government when the next major shit happens "why haven´t you done anything" .. true, but i doubt there are many that would, the boston bombings weren´t stopped by prism... so what is it worth then?

i wonder how you know that

[God8010]

I keep wanting to post about how a country becomes the choices it makes and play out the next 50 years in hypotheticals. Honestly, no one would care..

America can only lose the faith of so many citizens before it's just another rock above sea level.

[StayTuned]

don´t cry for government when the next major shit happens "why haven´t you done anything" .. true, but i doubt there are many that would, the boston bombings weren´t stopped by prism... so what is it worth then?

i wonder how you know that

Logical fallacy. You can't know what has been stopped by prism if they don't exactly tell you "we stopped this and this because of prism". Boston Bombing is no proof that prism is useless, it only shows that it's not perfect.

[God8010]

Logical fallacy. You can't know what has been stopped by prism if they don't exactly tell you "we stopped this and this because of prism". Boston Bombing is no proof that prism is useless, it only shows that it's not perfect.

If we're teaching people about logical fallacy at least call it the sweeping generalization that it is. Still, you trade freedom for security at the expense of lives you've never met for the last 11 years while striking down personal freedoms in support of obvious corruption; as if being burned is ok so long as it stops the bleeding all while in the medical age of 2013. According to my logic, that's testimony, statistic and analogy. Hell I add a couple links and we're on to compelling evidence.

It's easy to pick sides now without civil war. Would you bleed for your beliefs though?

[Mayhem]

Logical fallacy. You can't know what has been stopped by prism if they don't exactly tell you "we stopped this and this because of prism". Boston Bombing is no proof that prism is useless, it only shows that it's not perfect.

hold it, easy easy

because you can´t know what has been stopped by prism either

it could be nothing, because, nothing happened in the past

if they present anything, well than my position would be stupid, but as no one knows, my position is as true as yours

[Wikiy]

No, I knew it because I knew that it was technically possible. Whatever is technically possible is being done by the government. It has always been this way and it will always be this way.

It's technically possible for the governments of Europe to be executing murders. However, just because something's technically possible doesn't mean governments are going to be doing it. There are laws in place which forbid executing criminals and breaking those laws is technically possible and extremely easy and yet they aren't being broken in Europe. Same how there are international laws in place which forbid privacy being broken with such brashness.

People have gotten too used to the idea of spying. It was a normal practice back in the days of the Cold War for reasons which don't have to be explained and it's continued on to this day with mutual enemies spying on each other. Who got the idea of spying on allies or spying on Western civilians, I have no idea.

Chance to change something? I think people are trying to tackle this issue way too naively. What we achieve on the surface means nothing. The president comes out and lies into your face about this whole fiasco, and you want to "change" something? How are you going to know that you won? Because someone (CIA, NSA etc) is going to tell you "ok, from now on no more spying!"?

I'm not really talking about stopping the NSA or CIA from doing things like this. They aren't going to be stopped because the government of the US more or less fully support it while the citizens largely support it as well. The change I'm talking about is making Europe somewhat less of a lapdog for the US. Maybe you haven't noticed, but the European stance on the US and to what lengths we want to cooperate with the US has changed extremely in the last 10-15 years. It's changed because Europeans are speaking up and debating about it. Criticizing. Debates are never bad.

- - - Updated - - -

sounds great, but at best we'll be offered a fall guy. nothing will change

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q

Look. A lot of you are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying things will change directly because of Snowden. I'm saying debating whenever something "bad" happens can help change the public opinion and can influence the future greatly if those debates never stop.

- - - Updated - - -

What's the difference? Why stop at phone calls? If they would make Skype, or emails an exception, terrorists and others would just switch to those.

I would love to live in a world where nobody is listening to my phone calls. But just as I demand that everyone is being treated equally, I also demand the government to keep me safe from as much harm as possible.

What you don't understand is that it's not your government listening to your phone calls. It's the AMERICAN government which has 0 right to do so. What's funny is that they (the people in the NSA and the American government) are so deluded by prejudice that they're treating Germany as if it's still run by Hitler by marking it as the potential target for spying which is the most dangerous. It's the only European country in that rank. Like, that's enough for me to conclude that the NSA people have absolutely no clue what they're doing or what the European situation is.

I've already made this argument. If there are terrorists that can threaten America, they aren't in Europe. They're in America. The 9/11 terrorists lived in America for a few months before making their move, some for a year or two. You see, this isn't even about terrorists. They don't spy on Europeans for potential terrorist threats. There isn't even a specific reason they're doing it. They do it ONLY because they can. They have to be in control of everything.

[Kraenen]

Again, it's all or nothing. If you chose nothing, you also forfeit safety on a higher level. Don't cry for the government when the next major shit happens.

I don't have an issue with either. It's a personal choice to either trust or distrust your government. I don't trust them 100%, but I know that they do keep me safe from attacks on my soil.

Your soil doesn't belong to you

[Duronos]

I hope people realize this kind of thing has been happening for years, for decades. There is a reason things are classified as confidential, secret, and top secret. This caused an issue publicly and therefore it was wrong that Mr. Snowden did this, he made an oath when he received that type of clearance and purposely took that job just to get that kind of information. Saddening that people think they should have the "right" to know everything, sorry but the kind of people who get top secret clearance can handle top secret information appropriately and Mr. Snowden was fully wrong in what he did.

P.S. If only you people actually knew what the government does all the time.

[StayTuned]

It's technically possible for the governments of Europe to be executing murders. However, just because something's technically possible doesn't mean governments are going to be doing it. There are laws in place which forbid executing criminals and breaking those laws is technically possible and extremely easy and yet they aren't being broken in Europe. Same how there are international laws in place which forbid privacy being broken with such brashness.

You are confusing top secret operations with capital punishment. I am pretty sure we have some intelligence agencies in Europe which did assassinate the one or another person.

To everything else you wrote: I largely agree. I think debating is always a good thing, but I think many people debate (the fact that someone is spying on us) the wrong topic. It's not about the question whether or not someone will spy on us, it's about the "how" and about transparency.

[Wikiy]

You are confusing top secret operations with capital punishment. I am pretty sure we have some intelligence agencies in Europe which did assassinate the one or another person.

Doesn't really matter, you said whatever the government can do, it's doing. That doesn't make sense. If it were true, they'd be throwing nukes at people randomly because they can do that.

It's not about the question whether or not someone will spy on us, it's about the "how" and about transparency.

I don't think transparency and spying really go together. If you make your spying activities transparent, you're alerting your "target" either by letting them know that you're generally spying or if you're taking transparency to such a high level that you're actually saying who you're spying on, you're letting your target know you're spying on them. Both result in reduced efficiency of the spying and since governments usually don't have problems with hiding secrets from their citizens they're not going to make the spying any more transparent since that would be inefficient.

Edit: Also, you seem to be under the impression that I'm upset that someone's spying on us. I'm not. I'm upset a government 5000 miles away across an ocean is spying on us. It'd make sense if we were a threat. But again, we're not, which is exactly why the spying isn't happening for any other reason than the fact that it's possible.

[smelltheglove]

Look. A lot of you are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying things will change directly because of Snowden. I'm saying debating whenever something "bad" happens can help change the public opinion and can influence the future greatly if those debates never stop.

i hope i didnt come across the wrong way. im not knocking you at all, your optimism is actually kind of refreshing. i just dont share it. sure, politicians will dialog over it publicly, run on campaigns to put an end to it, and get exposed doing the exact same thing

[StayTuned]

Doesn't really matter, you said whatever the government can do, it's doing. That doesn't make sense. If it were true, they'd be throwing nukes at people randomly because they can do that.

You can do better than that, Wikiy. You know exactly what I mean when I say that. Obviously they don't do suicidal things. They do things that they can hide and pretend they never did them. Nuking countries and handing out capital punishments obviously doesn't happen. Assassinations on the other hand...

I don't think transparency and spying really go together. If you make your spying activities transparent, you're alerting your "target" either by letting them know that you're generally spying or if you're taking transparency to such a high level that you're actually saying who you're spying on, you're letting your target know you're spying on them. Both result in reduced efficiency of the spying and since governments usually don't have problems with hiding secrets from their citizens they're not going to make the spying any more transparent since that would be inefficient.

I don't know and don't really care about who they are spying on. I want them to make it official that they are doing it, how they are doing it and what data they are using. Obama telling me that they just look at meta data, which apparently is only phone number and length of a call, is complete bullshit. You can't say if someone is a threat based on this alone. There has to be more, there is more. I want them to come clear.

Edit: Also, you seem to be under the impression that I'm upset that someone's spying on us. I'm not. I'm upset a government 5000 miles away across an ocean is spying on us. It'd make sense if we were a threat. But again, we're not, which is exactly why the spying isn't happening for any other reason than the fact that it's possible.

That's what you think... You don't know their reasons, I don't know their reasons, only they know their reasons. We shouldn't speculate about them.

[Wikiy]

You can do better than that, Wikiy. You know exactly what I mean when I say that. Obviously they don't do suicidal things. They do things that they can hide and pretend they never did them. Nuking countries and handing out capital punishments obviously doesn't happen.

Well, how am I supposed to know what exactly you mean by the government doing technically whatever they can? Obviously, I brought up capital punishment and nuking countries to make a point, but here's another point; I have no idea to what lengths people like you (who are rather pessimistic about governments) think governments are willing to go and think they actually do go. (Western) governments assassinating people is as silly a concept to me as those same governments nuking countries at random.

Assassinations on the other hand...

I tend to consider assassinations happening and us not knowing about it as a conspiracy theory, not far from the 9/11 conspiracy theories. Probably not a widely held stance, but whatever. Like, go ahead and believe it if you want, I prefer to assume they're not happening until I see some evidence. Maybe I am wrong, maybe my naive outlook on the world is a bit silly, but to be honest what do I gain by considering the world such a grim place (when it's a matter of deciding for yourself and when you don't have direct evidence, i.e., when all you can do is believe that something is or isn't true, and not know it based on evidence).?

Also, there's difference between an assassination (which is always politically motivated) and a preemptive strike or murder meant to directly neutralize a threat (drone strikes for example).

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Also, there's difference between an assassination (which is always politically motivated) and a preemptive strike or murder meant to directly neutralize a threat (drone strikes for example).

How is issuing the authorization to kill a specific target in some terrorist organization by the government not ordering an assassination?

[Deleted]

In my eyes he's a national Hero. Nothing less, nothing more. I watched the interview on page 1 and the look in his eyes .. He looks absolutely terrified eventhough he claims not to be. He left everything he had, and he was fully aware of that he wasn't going to live a normal life from that day. Ever. He probably knows he won't be pardoned by th current president, perhaps and most likely not the next either. People who see him as a terrorist or traitor are spineless cowards who wouldn't stand up for anything remotely close to what he has done. The spineless people are the reason the US is in this condition at all. Speak up god damnit. I used to love the idea of living in the US one day, (I'm from Sweden) because of all the freedom and opportunities you can make for yourself, but that's totally an illusion. A government should have voted this thing in and included all the details. There's nothing more to say about it at all. He's a god damn hero and my dreams of ever "living" in America has since vanished. Look into his eyes and hear the sound of his voice. He's fucking terrified but still came out with what he had. Cut him some slack, grow some balls and stop being so repulsive. His actions shows more bravery than some of you, and I will ever make.

[This name sucks]

In my eyes he's a national Hero. Nothing less, nothing more. I watched the interview on page 1 and the look in his eyes .. He looks absolutely terrified eventhough he claims not to be. He left everything he had, and he was fully aware of that he wasn't going to live a normal life from that day. Ever. He probably knows he won't be pardoned by th current president, perhaps and most likely not the next either. People who see him as a terrorist or traitor are spineless cowards who wouldn't stand up for anything remotely close to what he has done. The spineless people are the reason the US is in this condition at all. Speak up god damnit. I used to love the idea of living in the US one day, (I'm from Sweden) because of all the freedom and opportunities you can make for yourself, but that's totally an illusion. A government should have voted this thing in and included all the details. There's nothing more to say about it at all. He's a god damn hero and my dreams of ever "living" in America has since vanished. Look into his eyes and hear the sound of his voice. He's fucking terrified but still came out with what he had. Cut him some slack, grow some balls and stop being so repulsive. His actions shows more bravery than some of you, and I will ever make.

The american people are overall way too apathetic about their government's love burning bridges with literally every single country with their "you're all fucking terrorists" attitude for anything to change.

Its not even Obama's fault. Its been the same people behind the scenes who don't get elected every 4 years who have caused this disaster over the last 2 decades.

[Flower Milk]

We always give up liberty for security, it's just a matter of degrees. They are called laws.

And those "laws" were only recently put in. Laws that the "people" didn't necessarily have any say in or approve of.

I think the worst part about this is that the NSA very clearly knew about the plans to attack on 9/11 (they had been monitoring Bin Laden's headquarters in Yemen for months, saw people from Arab nations who were in America call to the Yemen headquarters and monitored and transcribed their calls) but for whatever reason, didn't give this information to the FBI. The CIA knew about it slightly because they knew terrorist operatives had been approved to enter the country, but they couldn't release that information to the FBI because it was out of their jurisdiction and they had no idea what those terrorists had planned to do. The only intelligence agency that could was NSA, but for whatever reason, they didn't. And then after 9/11, they passed laws to allow NSA to spy on American phone calls, and also to receive more funding (like billions of dollars we're talking here).

To me, that is extremely suspicious. There was no laws back then preventing them from releasing the information that they DEFINITELY had to the proper authorities. Having an intelligence agency who doesn't release their intelligence to the proper authorities to prevent tragedies seems pointless to me.