The 5.4 Shaman Thread

[wordup]

On the new datamined patch notes, the Thunderstorm mana buff is reverted. They also changed Totemic Persistance to not affect Fire Totems.

I think people are really going to regret the amount of feedback that was given on the talent being mandatory for DPS. Removing fire totems from the talent makes it a useless PvE talent for every spec except Resto. When would DPS specs use it in PvE now? If you need double Tremor Totem or Windwalk Totem or something for a specific fight, you will take Call of the Elements. The only situation I can see it being remotely viable is if you want to spec Stone Bulwark and use Earth Elemental or Tremor at the same time. However, using SBT over Astral Shift is a much larger DPS hit than the DPS increase having fire totems on Totemic Persistence would be.

If it went live affecting all totem schools, it would be an interesting choice between persistence (higher theoretical target dummy DPS) and projection (higher actual DPS in a lot of real raid situations). With it not affecting fire totems, projection remains a near mandatory talent and persistence is completely useless except for Resto and for PvP.

In context of enhancement, I loved the idea of the new talent, however, I can understand their point. In terms of Call vs. Projection, I virtually never took projection as the increased survivability combined with SBT was really awesome with Call. Again though, it does irritate me that when they finally put in a totem that provided some semblance of DPS input, they have gutted it's only use. Essentially now, this talent is completely useless (even moreso than restoration) for anyone other than resto, and even then they're going to be taking COTE because it's simply superior. I'm holding back and hoping that this is a mistaken PTR datamine or a bad decision on an old build, but if they go through with it, it goes from an old niche talent, to a completely worthless talent, because they gutted the number of totems available.

[Teriz]

Honestly, I'm amazed that we still have the elemental limit on Totems still. The limit was originally put in place to prevent multiple buffs being up at once. Now it just doesn't make sense, because all the totems are cooldowns.

[Tiberria]

In context of enhancement, I loved the idea of the new talent, however, I can understand their point. In terms of Call vs. Projection, I virtually never took projection as the increased survivability combined with SBT was really awesome with Call. Again though, it does irritate me that when they finally put in a totem that provided some semblance of DPS input, they have gutted it's only use. Essentially now, this talent is completely useless (even moreso than restoration) for anyone other than resto, and even then they're going to be taking COTE because it's simply superior. I'm holding back and hoping that this is a mistaken PTR datamine or a bad decision on an old build, but if they go through with it, it goes from an old niche talent, to a completely worthless talent, because they gutted the number of totems available.

It's probably equal to if not better than Call for Resto, because CoTE is only effectively an extra HST every 6 minutes. In a real raiding situation, you are probably clipping the duration or delaying the use of HST more than 15 seconds every 6 minutes because of HTT/MTT. However, making it a useless talent for PvE DPS specs is a terrible idea. If they are not going to put fire totems on the talent, they may as well just scrap it. Or alternately make Totemic Projection baseline and scrap the entire talent tier.

[Lavindar]

It's funny to see people argue that the DPS gain is so small that fire totems should be included, but when they don't the talent is now useless...

I am happy that they took fire totems away, now it's a good quality of life talent like the other two, I prefer that tier like this, leave DPS throughput to tier 4/6

[wordup]

It's probably equal to if not better than Call for Resto, because CoTE is only effectively an extra HST every 6 minutes. In a real raiding situation, you are probably clipping the duration or delaying the use of HST more than 15 seconds every 6 minutes because of HTT/MTT. However, making it a useless talent for PvE DPS specs is a terrible idea. If they are not going to put fire totems on the talent, they may as well just scrap it. Or alternately make Totemic Projection baseline and scrap the entire talent tier.

COTE is a 3 minute cooldown however, meaning it perfectly syncs with HTT cooldown of current, which also means there's never any risk of you fully losing a HST by placing a bad HTT because you always have COTE to refund it, which in turn makes the new talent completely redundant. Essentially, removing fire from it means it's going to be even less popular than the current alternative, which is an impressive feat given how awful the current option is. I've defended their shaman design fervently right up until this move, because it makes zero sense, it's a restriction that nullifies the talent switch.

Lavindar, it isn't a QoL change with fire totems removed. It is now 100% inferior to CoTE. Any totem regularly used that blocks other totems usage are on a low enough CD to be affected by CoTE. Having the talent not affect fire means that it removes the biggest advantage, which was the danger of usurping FET with another totem at bad times. Now, what, we might replace our SBT with Earth Ele? Nvm, CoTE refreshes the SBT CD so we're all fine. The talent without fire being affected is pointless, as is the whole tier given that projection is the only talent with a use unless you're using SBT for anything but resto. It's like you're happy with a completely redundant talent tree for the sake of spiting the remainder of the populace who play shaman that aren't Resto. I guess I should bitch because resto gets throughput through tiers 3,4,5, AND 6 right? Or did you completely neglect that when you made your asinine post?

[Sarevokcz]

It's funny to see people argue that the DPS gain is so small that fire totems should be included, but when they don't the talent is now useless...

I am happy that they took fire totems away, now it's a good quality of life talent like the other two, I prefer that tier like this, leave DPS throughput to tier 4/6

then again why wasnt HST taken off the CotE months ago? it obviously isnt supposed to be HPS increasing tier either. And why the new talent doesnt limit water totems, too? You can have both HTT and HST at the same time now if the situation calls for it, thats hps increase aswell.

simply put the change doesnt make sense, because its cherrypicking excluded abilities based on seemingly random basis instead of logic and previous experience with similar abilities.

And of course its uselessin pve now, it brings very little benefit in the first place, as the pve situations, where you would want to use two utility totems at the same time from the same element (and at the same time NOT want to TP earthbind or capacitor to proper place) are so extremely rare and the biggest plus of this talent is, ironically, making viable taking SBT and PE talents together...

[Rafal]

Well, I have to say I'm strangely relieved they didn't go through with that 60% mana return on thunderstorm.... Elemental heals were already insane to begin with without the extra regen.

[Tiberria]

COTE is a 3 minute cooldown however, meaning it perfectly syncs with HTT cooldown of current, which also means there's never any risk of you fully losing a HST by placing a bad HTT because you always have COTE to refund it, which in turn makes the new talent completely redundant. Essentially, removing fire from it means it's going to be even less popular than the current alternative, which is an impressive feat given how awful the current option is. I've defended their shaman design fervently right up until this move, because it makes zero sense, it's a restriction that nullifies the talent switch.

Lavindar, it isn't a QoL change with fire totems removed. It is now 100% inferior to CoTE. Any totem regularly used that blocks other totems usage are on a low enough CD to be affected by CoTE. Having the talent not affect fire means that it removes the biggest advantage, which was the danger of usurping FET with another totem at bad times. Now, what, we might replace our SBT with Earth Ele? Nvm, CoTE refreshes the SBT CD so we're all fine. The talent without fire being affected is pointless, as is the whole tier given that projection is the only talent with a use unless you're using SBT for anything but resto. It's like you're happy with a completely redundant talent tree for the sake of spiting the remainder of the populace who play shaman that aren't Resto. I guess I should bitch because resto gets throughput through tiers 3,4,5, AND 6 right? Or did you completely neglect that when you made your asinine post?

But you have to also consider that you have MTT too that interferes with HST, and you are often forced to either delay MTT to wait for HST to finish (which could result in less uses over a fight), clip HST off early, or delay HST to wait for MTT to finish. The new talent just lets you not worry about watching totem duration timers (well at least outside of totemic recalls) and not worry about accidentally fat fingering HST and overwriting HTT or something. Yes, you shouldn't need that safety net and it's poor play, but it does add value.

The other real benefit of persistence as Resto is it lets you take and use Stone Bulwark Totem while Earth Elemental totem is up. SBT is buffed pretty significantly in 5.4, and using it on CD on fights with a lot of AoE damage is probably a lot of extra output if the fight doesn't require Astral Shift.

I personally have never felt that Call of the Elements outweighed the flexibility of Totemic Projection (outside of a fight where I need double Tremor or Windwalk totems), but I would consider using Totemic Persistence over projection some of the time.

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then again why wasnt HST taken off the CotE months ago? it obviously isnt supposed to be HPS increasing tier either. And why the new talent doesnt limit water totems, too? You can have both HTT and HST at the same time now if the situation calls for it, thats hps increase aswell.

simply put the change doesnt make sense, because its cherrypicking excluded abilities based on seemingly random basis instead of logic and previous experience with similar abilities.

And of course its uselessin pve now, it brings very little benefit in the first place, as the pve situations, where you would want to use two utility totems at the same time from the same element (and at the same time NOT want to TP earthbind or capacitor to proper place) are so extremely rare and the biggest plus of this talent is, ironically, making viable taking SBT and PE talents together...

If you put a "doesn't work on both Fire and Water totems" restriction on Totemic Persistance, it becomes a really crappy talent that only works on two of the four elements. If they have to restrict it from half of the potential uses, it's a pretty good indication it has to be scrapped.

[wordup]

But you have to also consider that you have MTT too that interferes with HST, and you are often forced to either delay MTT to wait for HST to finish (which could result in less uses over a fight), clip HST off early, or delay HST to wait for MTT to finish. The new talent just lets you not worry about watching totem duration timers (well at least outside of totemic recalls) and not worry about accidentally fat fingering HST and overwriting HTT or something. Yes, you shouldn't need that safety net and it's poor play, but it does add value.

The other real benefit of persistence as Resto is it lets you take and use Stone Bulwark Totem while Earth Elemental totem is up. SBT is buffed pretty significantly in 5.4, and using it on CD on fights with a lot of AoE damage is probably a lot of extra output if the fight doesn't require Astral Shift.

I personally have never felt that Call of the Elements outweighed the flexibility of Totemic Projection (outside of a fight where I need double Tremor or Windwalk totems), but I would consider using Totemic Persistence over projection some of the time.

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If you put a "doesn't work on both Fire and Water totems" restriction on Totemic Persistance, it becomes a really crappy talent that only works on two of the four elements. If they have to restrict it from half of the potential uses, it's a pretty good indication it has to be scrapped.

CoTE provides a double dip advantage of SBT that for enhancement can provide a pretty hefty (250k+) absorb shield that means it outweighs the on demand reduction of AS on some fights, plus the extra HST here or there. Without this new talent affecting fire, I'd never take it over CoTE simply because if I wanted to use a talent that affected the 3 other vital totems trees, it would be call in every circumstance nearly without fail. SBT already combined with call can be pretty fantastic, but come next patch, having this talent won't make SBT any more appealing vs. Call, because what is basically an extra defensive vs. being able to EE + SBT seems fairly niche at best.

Had this affected fire, I could see the niche. You sacrifice healing and defense and even utility for a very marginal increase that will only on occasion be worth it. Now? I can't see how this could possibly be a viable option for anyone but resto, and even those who take it as resto will be for the wrong reasons.

[Irisel]

My question is... Are there really any other tiers for another class that are by and large QoL changes, and marginal throughput changes at best, like the totem talent tier is for Shaman?

[Lavindar]

COTE is a 3 minute cooldown however, meaning it perfectly syncs with HTT cooldown of current, which also means there's never any risk of you fully losing a HST by placing a bad HTT because you always have COTE to refund it, which in turn makes the new talent completely redundant. Essentially, removing fire from it means it's going to be even less popular than the current alternative, which is an impressive feat given how awful the current option is. I've defended their shaman design fervently right up until this move, because it makes zero sense, it's a restriction that nullifies the talent switch.

Lavindar, it isn't a QoL change with fire totems removed. It is now 100% inferior to CoTE. Any totem regularly used that blocks other totems usage are on a low enough CD to be affected by CoTE. Having the talent not affect fire means that it removes the biggest advantage, which was the danger of usurping FET with another totem at bad times. Now, what, we might replace our SBT with Earth Ele? Nvm, CoTE refreshes the SBT CD so we're all fine. The talent without fire being affected is pointless, as is the whole tier given that projection is the only talent with a use unless you're using SBT for anything but resto. It's like you're happy with a completely redundant talent tree for the sake of spiting the remainder of the populace who play shaman that aren't Resto. I guess I should bitch because resto gets throughput through tiers 3,4,5, AND 6 right? Or did you completely neglect that when you made your asinine post?

Read my post again, I clearly stated DPS throughput, healing is not throughput. But fine, I think water needs to ne affected by this because of the relation between Healing Tide Totem and Mana Tide Totem, You could argue that it could affect water totems only for Restoration, and I would agree with you.

And you said about redundant talent tree, if you mean more than one talent in the tree doing the same, well that's the whole purpose of the tier, doing the same thins (QoL for totems) in different ways. If that was not what you meant then ignore this part.

Just an addend, I would like to see projection made baseline and the removal of the one totem per element at a time limitation, and maybe go away with searing totem. But as it will not happen, at least in 5.4, the way the talent is now is for the best. with maybe water totems only working for Restoration.

[Teriz]

My question is... Are there really any other tiers for another class that are by and large QoL changes, and marginal throughput changes at best, like the totem talent tier is for Shaman?

Definitely not in the Monk class. I can't speak for the other classes. Maybe level 90 warlock?

[Tiberria]

My question is... Are there really any other tiers for another class that are by and large QoL changes, and marginal throughput changes at best, like the totem talent tier is for Shaman?

At least looking at all of the other healing/DPS hybrid classes, there is not another talent tier for another class that is as weak and inconsequential as the Shaman L45 talents. There are tiers that are all CC/control type abilities that are of only situational PvE value, but not a tier that is as inconsequential and generally terrible.

The biggest issue is that both Totemic Projection and Totemic Persistance are effects that should be baseline to begin with. Projection is just a weaker version of Trap Launcher, that has been baseline for 2 expansions. No other class has to deal with their major buffs/cooldowns being tied to a static totem instead of being self buffs or targetable abilities. We shouldn't have to use a talent to get some basic flexibility to move them. The MoP totem redesign has also rendered the restriction of one totem per element obsolete given that all high impact totems are cooldown restricted in the first place. Druids can cast Tranq with Innervate up; Priests can cast Divine Hymn with Shadowfiend out. Paladins can use Devo Aura with Divine Plea, etc. It doesn't make sense to make Shaman use a talent for a QoL fix that is something that every other class effectively has baseline.

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Read my post again, I clearly stated DPS throughput, healing is not throughput. But fine, I think water needs to ne affected by this because of the relation between Healing Tide Totem and Mana Tide Totem, You could argue that it could affect water totems only for Restoration, and I would agree with you.

And you said about redundant talent tree, if you mean more than one talent in the tree doing the same, well that's the whole purpose of the tier, doing the same thins (QoL for totems) in different ways. If that was not what you meant then ignore this part.

Just an addend, I would like to see projection made baseline and the removal of the one totem per element at a time limitation, and maybe go away with searing totem. But as it will not happen, at least in 5.4, the way the talent is now is for the best. with maybe water totems only working for Restoration.

Why would it even matter if they made the water totems only work for Resto? Resto is the only spec that will care about being able to drop 2 water totems at once anyway. DPS specs rarely use HST anyway, and the ability for DPS to have HST and HTT up at the same time is something that makes no real difference.

[Lavindar]

At least looking at all of the other healing/DPS hybrid classes, there is not another talent tier for another class that is as weak and inconsequential as the Shaman L45 talents. There are tiers that are all CC/control type abilities that are of only situational PvE value, but not a tier that is as inconsequential and generally terrible.

The biggest issue is that both Totemic Projection and Totemic Persistance are effects that should be baseline to begin with. Projection is just a weaker version of Trap Launcher, that has been baseline for 2 expansions. No other class has to deal with their major buffs/cooldowns being tied to a static totem instead of being self buffs or targetable abilities. We shouldn't have to use a talent to get some basic flexibility to move them. The MoP totem redesign has also rendered the restriction of one totem per element obsolete given that all high impact totems are cooldown restricted in the first place. Druids can cast Tranq with Innervate up; Priests can cast Divine Hymn with Shadowfiend out. Paladins can use Devo Aura with Divine Plea, etc. It doesn't make sense to make Shaman use a talent for a QoL fix that is something that every other class effectively has baseline.

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Why would it even matter if they made the water totems only work for Resto? Resto is the only spec that will care about being able to drop 2 water totems at once anyway. DPS specs rarely use HST anyway, and the ability for DPS to have HST and HTT up at the same time is something that makes no real difference.

I don't really mind it that much, I just think is for the better not really needing to keep juggling the fire totems for just a bit of DPS gain, I would not do it, but not really be possible is for the better IMO.

Anyway, I think everyone agrees that this tier is weak, CoTE is in the category of spells that Blizzard said would be better removed (ala Readiness), TP should be baseline, and the limitation gone. I would love to see a Ghost Wolf tier, but as the talent is what we got for this patch, least it don't increase our problems.

[Deleted]

In what crazy situation would a shaman be used to take this talent now?

Ok resto can have somewhat more healing output (which shouldn't be possible too, same problem), but the use is very very minimal. We already have only very short totems with long CDs now so there are nearly no realistical situations to put ob both totems, especially in PVE, but also in PVP.

As others mentioned, the limitation was only in use because they didn't want us to use two buff totems at the same time. But now, it's just of no use anymore and it could easily be made baseline. This talent just sucks and i want my old TR back.

[Jacob6875]

O good it was pointlessly nerfed making the talent largely useless for elemental. The only real purpose now is to allow us to use tremor when our earth ele is dpsing. (that I dont think is needed on any recent boss fight)

I guess I will be sticking with projection on all fights like I do currently. Being able to place stormlash (and next patch healing tide) in the middle of the raid so everyone gets it is to good.

[Deleted]

O good it was pointlessly nerfed making the talent largely useless for elemental. The only real purpose now is to allow us to use tremor when our earth ele is dpsing. (that I dont think is needed on any recent boss fight)

I guess I will be sticking with projection on all fights like I do currently. Being able to place stormlash (and next patch healing tide) in the middle of the raid so everyone gets it is to good.

The point of talents, at least to me, is to be situational or throughput increase. Its not supposed to be that this new talent would surpass Cote / Proj. in every situation. There are multiple instances, as you said, where it might come in handy.
At least I see already one fight where this talent would work in my favor, Council of Elders. I drop pretty much the Earthgrab totem on cd near Sul to ensure the healing loa doesnt make it there. There is little to no gaps to use SBT/EET.

[nazrakin]

I'm surprised so many are upset, it was obvious they had to make the change. The whole point of this talent pass is to balance them out and if Fire Totems are included its just too much of a damage increase for Enhancement. I'm glad they did, I was no looking forward to Magma totem making its way back into the single target rotation.

[Omanley]

Even before the "nerf", which was bound to happen, I thought this new talent bad (unless they make totemic restoration baseline).

Are they in some kind of way planning to recompensate shamans for losing the very strong ability to reduce a totem's cooldown a lot in certain situations? (tremor, grounding, earthgrab ...)

[Deleted]

The biggest issue is that both Totemic Projection and Totemic Persistance are effects that should be baseline to begin with. Projection is just a weaker version of Trap Launcher, that has been baseline for 2 expansions. No other class has to deal with their major buffs/cooldowns being tied to a static totem instead of being self buffs or targetable abilities. We shouldn't have to use a talent to get some basic flexibility to move them. The MoP totem redesign has also rendered the restriction of one totem per element obsolete given that all high impact totems are cooldown restricted in the first place. Druids can cast Tranq with Innervate up; Priests can cast Divine Hymn with Shadowfiend out. Paladins can use Devo Aura with Divine Plea, etc. It doesn't make sense to make Shaman use a talent for a QoL fix that is something that every other class effectively has baseline.

Other classes can't traplaunch their tranq or hymn of hope to the boss on spread out fights like we can do with totemic projection. They also need to actually channel these spells, while we're free to move out of bad effects without cancelling the spell. Traps and totems are also fairly different beasts, as all our totems except magma, spirit link, conductivity and earthbind are inherently ranged and don't require anything to trigger them. It's often actually better to be able to move totems after you spawned them, than it would be to move them before casting them (CT and Earthbind come to mind).

Totemic Projection already gives your HST, HTT, Stormlash, and MTT an effective 80 yards range. On most spread/mobile fights, TP isn't just a QoL change, but a direct increase to the effectiveness of these totems. Arguably, PvE Enhance and Elemental might not care enough about totems in general to have a full tier based around them. The original persistence talent would have given those two specs something interesting for pve, which is far better than having all talents so bad you just pick one randomly and forget the tier exists.

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I'm surprised so many are upset, it was obvious they had to make the change. The whole point of this talent pass is to balance them out and if Fire Totems are included its just too much of a damage increase for Enhancement. I'm glad they did, I was no looking forward to Magma totem making its way back into the single target rotation.

They could have also just limited the talent to make MT always replace ST and vice versa, without affecting the QoL / minor dps gain from ST/FET.