Warlock patch 5.4 discussion

[Jessicka]

Someone should really bring up the lock trinket issues on the PTR forums. Pets/Wild Imps not benefiting from 3/4 of our trinkets. Certainly doesn't help our scaling this tier.

well wild imps shouldnt benefit, since they are guardians afaik, but the minion should benefit from the trinkets.

Guardian stats update dynamically like pets. If they're not, its a bug.

Also, they usually adjust proc rates based on spec, so if pets don't benefit it should proc more often. Been this way since DTR, so ask for clarification if anything.

[Nivrax]

Also, they usually adjust proc rates based on spec, so if pets don't benefit it should proc more often. Been this way since DTR, so ask for clarification if anything.

Iirc only procs they adjusted based on spec were on DTR (since it's legendary) and Wrathion meta (same issue), +nerf to UVLS for boomkins since it was even stronger that it is for Demo now. Cunning didn't care for your class (in fact, Demo did get better use of it through meta boosting damage), neither did poison-proc dagger from DW.

It will be 'fun' trying to get Amp trinket seeing as it might be bis for every caster after they neutered RRPMs. Then Kadris I guess for everything beside lolranks. Frenzied Crystal cleave activating when you snipe something with shadowburn... as if rankings weren't already RNG enough.

[Werst]

Kadris is doing ****all for demo compared to aff/dest and less for non sac versions of those since it does nothing with guardians/imps or conventional pets (nor is it intended to). If they ever fix destro's numbers/mechanics I could see a destro build w' kadris but as hard as aff gosac took it in the pooper we may never scale out of it though that trinket will certainly favor going petless if you have it.

Devs: we don't care if kadris screws pet builds
Devs: we want warlocks using a pet - gosac is for niche situations when we can't QA our content to work properly w' pets
Players: What about destro as spec?
Devs: Destro was properly nerfed, RoF was never intended to give you 30% more embers, and is now working as intended.
Players: its not even viable, especially after the RoF nerf
Devs: in future PTR patches prepare to have demo and aff brought down to destro's level, this will make specs feel more balanced
Players: what about vs other classes? Especially say firemages?
Devs: we find nerfing them is not acceptable even if they are broken OP since it might offend the lower geared firemages who are not at the crazy OP point yet.
Players: what about pvp?
Devs: we fixed CB but had to nerf it 25% vs players even though it barely breaks 100K w' all CD's for just one 3 sec bolt every 2 mins, however its perfectly acceptable for a firemage to dump 4x 100K pyro's into someone instant cast with a far superior control/escape toolkit.
Players: doesn't that seem a bit hypocritical? Not to mention that is in this season's gear...inflating that another 20'some ilvls is just going to make it worse.
Devs: we agree, chaosbolt may need further nerfs vs players in the coming arena season.

Do we have a source for the static int + crit proc trinket yet? Last I looked on the PTR its still has a generic name while all the other trinkets are now linked to bosses. If its going to be a rep/valor bought thing that may change things since it will not have heroic ilvl counterpart.

[Deleted]

It's supposedly from Timeless Isle, so no heroic version.

Even with the problems on KTT, cleave still doesn't work on your primary target and Black Blood is off Garrosh so not available as hc version for progress.

Despite the huge nerf, GoSac might come out ahead. It scales very well off mastery, which we can get loads of with Bindings. Combine that with 2 trinkets that severely limit pets, I think it might be better than GoSup.

[icecoldsir]

Despite the huge nerf, GoSac might come out ahead. It scales very well off mastery, which we can get loads of with Bindings. Combine that with 2 trinkets that severely limit pets, I think it might be better than GoSup.

Eh, I dont know about that. On Live atm GoSac requires a tremendous amount of uptime with MG to be better then GoSup and with all the add fights/ swapping targets in SoO frequently I think Sup is going to pull ahead.

[Jessicka]

Iirc only procs they adjusted based on spec were on DTR (since it's legendary) and Wrathion meta (same issue), +nerf to UVLS for boomkins since it was even stronger that it is for Demo now. Cunning didn't care for your class (in fact, Demo did get better use of it through meta boosting damage), neither did poison-proc dagger from DW.

It will be 'fun' trying to get Amp trinket seeing as it might be bis for every caster after they neutered RRPMs. Then Kadris I guess for everything beside lolranks. Frenzied Crystal cleave activating when you snipe something with shadowburn... as if rankings weren't already RNG enough.

The tech is there though if necessary. And, if we scale like shit with the trinkets, they should balance around that fact in any case.

[Werst]

The new kadris RPPM aspect is really low (0.4xx) and the proc chance was cut back down. This further kicks it in the nuts for its value to warlocks. Thus I'm thinking amp + timeless isle even with the reduced ilvl. BBoY normal of course competing but I see that as more an aff trinket and its still going to be normal ilvl for progression which is the same boat as static int + crit proc. Sure once you have progression finished the BBoY HC will be good but then its just gear farming/doesn't matter.

I find it extremely hypocritical that gosac is nerfed around the theoretical bis/top end while fire gets a pass to be OP at the high end to avoid gimping the low end. Especially since any fight with multidotting automatically makes pets a better option. Especially since the aff T16 set bonus basically just jacks up gosac's power so we nerf based on that iffy set bonus?

Make a better set bonus, stop the beatdown of gosac based on the theoretical, and let trinkets work better for pet specs IF you want people using pets.

[Diamondeye]

So from what I've been researching and reading about, it looks like the two specs that will mostly be at the top are a crit-demo build with the crit proc trinket (until heroic trinkets are acquired) and an affliction build (2nd BiS trinket I haven't determined yet).

What are the set bonuses looking like for these two specs?
Affliction's 2 piece sounds absolutely idiotic (making affliction rely on crits for a proc?) while Demo's 2 piece sounds really good but also eliminates any choice of GoSac from it's build (unless the 25% bonus is enough to cancel out both pet damage, fury generation, and the increased 20% dmg to your pet).
The 4 pieces sound like we honestly get to keep playing the lottery.
Affliction's 4 piece allows us to have a 10% chance to basically get another Haunt off on the target. Considering the buffs to Haunt, this sounds pretty good, but assuming a 10% chance, you're only going to get this every 10 haunts (theoretically) which may add up to one or 2 haunts in the whole fight. Demonology's 4 piece sounds very interesting; on an 8% proc chance off my SB or ToC, I can "cast" a HoG on my target, which then applies the shadowflame DoT. While this itself doesn't sound as appealing except for extra damage that we don't have to do anything for, if this procs while I'm doing my HoG double stack manuever, I could get *3* stacks of shadowflame on my target (of course....all coming down to luck).

Grimoires for affliction is looking like staying as supremacy. However, with demonology, is it possible that we could be looking at supremacy or service? the 20% pet damage buff that SF has the chance of proccing could cause a 20% dmg increase wrathguard (which is already buffed) to pull ahead of a serviced felguard that benefits from the buff (does it even get the buff?), especially since we no longer are relying on the extra fury burst from GoServ for our openner (assuming of course due to RPPM change and if you look at logs / sims....the serviced felguard really isn't generating THAT much fury).

Am I looking at this wrong or is that about right?

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Also, has anyone looked at Prismatic Prison of Pride (the healer version of our Bindings) and seen if it will proc off our new Soul Link or off Glyph of Siphon Life? (Don't know if it'd work like that but it'd be interesting to see if we could get 2 amp trinkets)

[Deleted]

Shadow flame cannot be stacked to 3 times. It caps at 2 on PTR. (Meaning you can extend the 2 stacked Shadow flame for about 6 more seconds or so if you are lucky.

[Deleted]

Also, has anyone looked at Prismatic Prison of Pride (the healer version of our Bindings) and seen if it will proc off our new Soul Link or off Glyph of Siphon Life? (Don't know if it'd work like that but it'd be interesting to see if we could get 2 amp trinkets)

Can't do that, it checks your spec. Warlock spec = 0 procs off healer trinket.

[Brusalk]

Demo's 2 piece sounds really good but also eliminates any choice of GoSac from it's build (unless the 25% bonus is enough to cancel out both pet damage, fury generation, and the increased 20% dmg to your pet).

You're thinking about this incorrectly. The set bonus doesn't care about whether you have a pet or not. GoSac is balanced such that it's (roughly) even with GoSup/Serv. Thus 20% more player damage boils in the pet component.

If you're a mathy person, imagine pet damage as Y, and player damage as X.

With GoServ/Sup w/ Set Bonus:
Set Bonus Benefit = .2*X + .2*Y

With GoSac w/ Set Bonus:
Set Bonus Benefit = .2*(X+Y) + .2*0

By the associative property:

2*X + .2*Y = .2*(X+Y)

If anything I'd be inclined to say that the set bonus values GoSac higher as you can get the 20% damage bonus during Soul Fire spam during meta. Further buffing that spam in Meta with GoSac probably outweighs the pet damage during the same period.

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Can't do that, it checks your spec. Warlock spec = 0 procs off healer trinket.

Does the passive not work for all specs still?

Also, I know that at one point in PTR the trinket was proccing off of our heals and wasn't checking specs. Have they "fixed" it yet?

[Diamondeye]

If you're a mathy person, imagine pet damage as Y, and player damage as X.

With GoServ/Sup w/ Set Bonus:
Set Bonus Benefit = .2*X + .2*Y

With GoSac w/ Set Bonus:
Set Bonus Benefit = .2*(X+Y) + .2*0

By the associative property:

2*X + .2*Y = .2*(X+Y)

If anything I'd be inclined to say that the set bonus values GoSac higher as you can get the 20% damage bonus during Soul Fire spam during meta. Further buffing that spam in Meta with GoSac probably outweighs the pet damage during the same period.

I see what you're saying....that makes sense.
It still doesn't calculate in the fury generation of your pet though....think that that would make a change?

And also....the serv/sup wouldn't be the same based again on math.

because with sup, assuming your same variables, it would actually be

.2*X + .2*.2*Y due to the 20% buff of supremacy.

Edit: Sorry not .2*.2 because that would result in a lower number....but you get what I mean....been outta college for too long >.>

Edit (again): Also, wouldn't our mastery play in there since it buffs our pet? If you sacrifice your pet, you're losing that mastery bonus on your pet (it's not a HUGE bonus but it IS something).

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Shadow flame cannot be stacked to 3 times. It caps at 2 on PTR. (Meaning you can extend the 2 stacked Shadow flame for about 6 more seconds or so if you are lucky.

Is there a reason for this or is it just a bug?

[Deleted]

Is there a reason for this or is it just a bug?

Probably intentional.

[Brusalk]

I see what you're saying....that makes sense.
It still doesn't calculate in the fury generation of your pet though....think that that would make a change?

And also....the serv/sup wouldn't be the same based again on math.

because with sup, assuming your same variables, it would actually be

.2*X + .2*.2*Y due to the 20% buff of supremacy.

Edit: Sorry not .2*.2 because that would result in a lower number....but you get what I mean....been outta college for too long >.>

Edit (again): Also, wouldn't our mastery play in there since it buffs our pet? If you sacrifice your pet, you're losing that mastery bonus on your pet (it's not a HUGE bonus but it IS something).

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Is there a reason for this or is it just a bug?

All of those concerns are boiled into the assumption that GoSac is roughly balanced to be equivalent to GoServ/Sup. You're confused because you're not making the same assumptions that I am.

GoSac is roughly balanced to be equivalent to GoServ/Sup taking everything into account. Pet fury gen, mastery, everything.

[Diamondeye]

All of those concerns are boiled into the assumption that GoSac is roughly balanced to be equivalent to GoServ/Sup. You're confused because you're not making the same assumptions that I am.

GoSac is roughly balanced to be equivalent to GoServ/Sup taking everything into account. Pet fury gen, mastery, everything.

Ahhhhhhh....I gotcha

Aside from the grimoires and 2 piece though....which spec do you think might be pulling ahead though?

[Jetjaguar]

If you're talking about for Siege, Affliction is going to be the best spec of the tier once again. The new Soul Swap is extremely powerful.

[varren]

If you're talking about for Siege, Affliction is going to be the best spec of the tier once again. The new Soul Swap is extremely powerful.

Isn't crit demo supposed to be about equal to or better than Aff? If you use crit proc trinket you can still roll a 50%+ crit doom the entire fight.

[Pyrhos]

If you're talking about for Siege, Affliction is going to be the best spec of the tier once again. The new Soul Swap is extremely powerful.

I would wait until the end of heroic testing to make that judgement. My gut feeling however is that in 10 mans you will see more affliction, while in 25 mans you will see more demonology due to the extra adds to burst down with HoG and Grim Serv FG.

[Jetjaguar]

Affliction add burst is probably the best out of all the specs with the new soul swap and I don't think any fight on 25 man is going to have enough to warrant aoe over multi dotting except for Sha of Pride which still favors affliction because of how strong the spec is with Mannoroth's Fury and how perfectly it lines up with the add spawns. You'll probably want to go Demo on Protectors/Paragons with UVLS though regardless of if you play 10 or 25

[Numidia]

Isn't crit demo supposed to be about equal to or better than Aff? If you use crit proc trinket you can still roll a 50%+ crit doom the entire fight.

I believe the crit proc trinket is from the Isle, aka no heroic version.