Warlock patch 5.4 discussion

[Schma]

Has anyone done any actual math on how hard the RoF ember generation hurts for single target? I have read a TON of QQ but so far no actual numbers. Losing 1/3 ember generation doesn't mean we're losing 1/3 chaos bolts or anything... right? I believe one of the primary reasons for the nerf was unlimited embers during mass aoe, which is kinda dumb tbh (heroic prim says hello) anyway.. Also how does this math account for increased levels of crit on our gear for t16?

also new fel flame. How many fel flames to be cast before it equals the ember generation of one RoF on live single target? Not saying you would put it into your rotation, but if movement needs to be done, why not plan ahead....

[Grizelda]

Well, Zumzum did some testing regarding how much the ember gen of RoF has been nerfed.

Without digging it up, I remember it being considerable. Just check back a few pages or log onto the PTR. I THINK he mentioned RoF going from .41 to .25 embers per tick with RoF on two dummies.

Losing ember gen will certainly translate into fewer Chaosbolts.

We kind of need limitless embers on AoE as our FnB revolves around us burning embers. I have no idea how that accounts for crit levels on gear or why it would.

I don't see how Fel Flame could possibly make up the embers from RoF. (for one it's GCD capped while RoF is not)

[Brusalk]

Has anyone done any actual math on how hard the RoF ember generation hurts for single target? I have read a TON of QQ but so far no actual numbers. Losing 1/3 ember generation doesn't mean we're losing 1/3 chaos bolts or anything... right? I believe one of the primary reasons for the nerf was unlimited embers during mass aoe, which is kinda dumb tbh (heroic prim says hello) anyway.. Also how does this math account for increased levels of crit on our gear for t16?

also new fel flame. How many fel flames to be cast before it equals the ember generation of one RoF on live single target? Not saying you would put it into your rotation, but if movement needs to be done, why not plan ahead....

IIRC it no longer gives embers on it's first tick, and it has a significantly reduced proc chance per tick. (I can't remember the exact proc chances)

The whole reason for the nerf had nothing to do with AoE. It was purely a mechanics change to remove it from our single target rotation.

I'm not sure what you're referring to with the crit comment, unless you're remarking about the math for how much crit/targets you need for an FnB to be ember neutral (which I believe still stands and is located in the guide)

I'm not sure what you're intention is behind your fel flame question. Could you expound on your question some more?

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Has anyone done any actual math on how hard the RoF ember generation hurts for single target? I have read a TON of QQ but so far no actual numbers. Losing 1/3 ember generation doesn't mean we're losing 1/3 chaos bolts or anything... right? I believe one of the primary reasons for the nerf was unlimited embers during mass aoe, which is kinda dumb tbh (heroic prim says hello) anyway.. Also how does this math account for increased levels of crit on our gear for t16?

also new fel flame. How many fel flames to be cast before it equals the ember generation of one RoF on live single target? Not saying you would put it into your rotation, but if movement needs to be done, why not plan ahead....

Also, losing 1/3 ember gen doesn't mean 1/3 less Chaos Bolts... because of Shadowburn. Shadowburn isn't Chaos Bolt, and less facetiously, the ember return on add kill with SBurn whacks the numbers out some.

However you wouldn't be terribly far off from the truth if you stated that 1/3 less ember generation roughly means 1/3 less Chaos Bolt/Shadowburn damage. (It's a HUGE single target nerf, likely putting us in last in the sims)

[Schma]

Yup, that was the point I was trying to make there Brusalk (1/3 ember generation). Regarding aoe I had thought I read a blue post about it a long time ago...maybe not. Thanks for the info though, I was just wondering if there were actual numbers out there.

By fel flame, well they reduced the mana cost on ptr right? So using it while on the move will somewhat offset it (but i agree with grizelda there).

For limitless ember aoe, i guess it totally depends on how long the adds will stay alive for your approach on how you're going to spend your embers.

But yeah I'm on your side.. I do like destruction and it would suck if it does indeed end up being a very poor performing spec in SoO. Affliction is pretty fun still too though.

[Deleted]

The AoE is back to being clunky when there are like 6-7 targets. Not enough embers through RoF, FnB toggling off on his own... crap

[Schma]

That sucks... but you aren't trying to spam fnb incinerate, right? lol just making sure... fnb immolate on everything + rain of fire, chaos bolt and shadowburn cleave, usually pretty decent no?

[Brusalk]

The AoE is back to being clunky when there are like 6-7 targets. Not enough embers through RoF, FnB toggling off on his own... crap

I was dreading this part.

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That sucks... but you aren't trying to spam fnb incinerate, right? lol just making sure... fnb immolate on everything + rain of fire, chaos bolt and shadowburn cleave, usually pretty decent no?

Depends heavily on the type of AoE. Get more than like 3-4 targets and you'll get more damage out of FnB-Incin than a Chaos Bolt (Same ember cost, slightly less damage from Incin, but faster cast time so DPET is very similar.)

[pokeadott]

The AoE is back to being clunky when there are like 6-7 targets. Not enough embers through RoF, FnB toggling off on his own... crap

That sucks (although not shocking). ST ember compensation aside, why don't they give RoF the Divine Storm treatment and have it generate 5.3 level embers when it hits 3 or more targets? With the toggle and the Destro GCD, having to alternate between single targeting and FnB versions of spells to maintain an AE 'rotation' is definitely clunky to say the least.

[sasofrass]

so blizzards "fix" to get RoF out of the single target rotation actually breaks so much more to the spec. i don't see why they didn't just add a glyph to make rain of fire go at the target location and just keep using it single target lol..

[Grubjuice]

That sucks (although not shocking). ST ember compensation aside, why don't they give RoF the Divine Storm treatment and have it generate 5.3 level embers when it hits 3 or more targets? With the toggle and the Destro GCD, having to alternate between single targeting and FnB versions of spells to maintain an AE 'rotation' is definitely clunky to say the least.

I agree whenever an AOE ability becomes too good on single target they just nerf it (they did this to Death and Decay way back for example)
rather they should have AoE abilities do proportionally more damage when used on multiple targets

like it does 1.0x damage (or emeber regen in this case) to one target. 1.5x damage/ember regen to the second, 2.0x damage/ember regen to the third up to something like ten targets at which point the ramping up mechanic caps out.

it's very much like the they Vengence AoE nerf they are implementing where each addtional target attacking a tank provides less vengence (only its an inverse of the mechanic that ratchets up with each target rather than ratcheting down with each target)

[Reposed]

However you wouldn't be terribly far off from the truth if you stated that 1/3 less ember generation roughly means 1/3 less Chaos Bolt/Shadowburn damage. (It's a HUGE single target nerf, likely putting us in last in the sims)

Wow, I haven't looked at charts in a while, but where things so close for Destro for this to really be the case? If so, ouch...

[MrHappy]

5.4 Seems to be interesting for Destruction warlocks. The annoying weaving of RoF gone and revamp for 90lvl talents makes this spec quite interesting to play...not to mention SoO having few two-target Boss encounters.

My Theory

Looking at the set bonuses and what they do tend to be the driving factor with what stats we build to take the most benefit from the set. Having said that T16 looks like a good candidate for Crit > Mastery > Haste build for this patch

If we look @ the set:

2 pieces: Conflagrate critical strikes have a 20% chance to increase the critical strike chance of Immolate and Incinerate by 10%.

It does not seem like there is an ICD on this proc (at least it does not say explicitly). Crit is being benefited here two-fold. One more crit = more procs...and the crit procs increases the number of times immolate and incinerate crits (obviously). This becomes more important with the 4pc set

4 pieces: When a Burning Ember fills up, your critical strike chance is increased by 15% for 5 sec.

Crits double emeber generation from the spell. More crit and the 2pc will result those embers filling up quicker and having a higher uptime on the 4pc buff.

As a rule of thumb we do not want to cast an un-buffed CB unless we are about to ember cap. 5 seconds is not a lot of time and usually will mean 1 CB unless we want to waste charges of back-draft for 2 (which unless you need to burst now or never type deal is a dps loss). Essentially you can cast a CB every time an ember fills up for the power of 1/2 our DS.

Item list

Here is a list of what I would consider "BiS" for the play-style and synergy of this set for me.

From the set

• Chest: Robes of the Horned Nightmare
• Legs: Leggings of the Horned Nightmare
• Shoulders: Mantle of the Horned Nightmare
• Gloves: Gloves of the Horned Nightmare

Offpeices

• Helm: Hood of Swirling Senses
• Belt: Miasmic Skullbelt
• Boots: Toxic Tornado Treads
• Bracer: Scalebane Bracers
• Rings: Iyyokuk's Hereditary Seal & Petrified Pennyroyal Ring
• Trinket#1: Purified Bindings of Immerseus Int proc and 6% to crit damage, haste and mastery
• Trinket#2: Kardris' Toxic Totem more int procs and nuke chance for 1/3 of last spell cast so if lucky that is a 33% boost to CB if it procs on your CB casts

Weapons

There is only two choices for my set-up. One is faily early in the game which will last you until you have the BoA Staff from Garrosh

• BiS: Hellscream's War Staff
• 2nd choice till then: Gaze of Arrogance

Happy hunting!

[Brusalk]

Wow, I haven't looked at charts in a while, but where things so close for Destro for this to really be the case? If so, ouch...

Looking at BiS sims, pure single target Destro is already one of the last few specs in the game. All 3 DK specs are lower, but there's not many who are lower.

The power of Destro comes from the fact that our abilities allow us to do some amazing things on actual fights to make our damage seem respectable. Now, remove fight mechanics and adds of any sort, and Destro is one of the worst specs in the game. (Which is what makes me really angry when people come in and say that the nerf to Destro was deserved, then they're obviously clueless about anything Warlock and especially Destruction)

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5.4 Seems to be interesting for Destruction warlocks. The annoying weaving of RoF gone and revamp for 90lvl talents makes this spec quite interesting to play...not to mention SoO having few two-target Boss encounters.

My Theory

Looking at the set bonuses and what they do tend to be the driving factor with what stats we build to take the most benefit from the set. Having said that T16 looks like a good candidate for Crit > Mastery > Haste build for this patch

If we look @ the set:

2 pieces: Conflagrate critical strikes have a 20% chance to increase the critical strike chance of Immolate and Incinerate by 10%.

It does not seem like there is an ICD on this proc (at least it does not say explicitly). Crit is being benefited here two-fold. One more crit = more procs...and the crit procs increases the number of times immolate and incinerate crits (obviously). This becomes more important with the 4pc set

4 pieces: When a Burning Ember fills up, your critical strike chance is increased by 15% for 5 sec.

Crits double emeber generation from the spell. More crit and the 2pc will result those embers filling up quicker and having a higher uptime on the 4pc buff.

As a rule of thumb we do not want to cast an un-buffed CB unless we are about to ember cap. 5 seconds is not a lot of time and usually will mean 1 CB unless we want to waste charges of back-draft for 2 (which unless you need to burst now or never type deal is a dps loss). Essentially you can cast a CB every time an ember fills up for the power of 1/2 our DS.

...

Happy hunting!

I appreciate the effort you put into this list! It looks great and consistent with your theory! That said personally I don't fully agree with your theory.


Personally, I don't anticipate anything but Mastery being our best stat even without taking into consideration our set bonuses. Once you do I think Mastery probably gets even better. (Barring significant balance changes)

2 Set probably bumps the value of Crit a bit, but I don't think it's significant enough to matter. (Keep in mind too with this one, that the more crit you have, the less "bonus" you get from the 10% Immo/Incin crit. It nerfs itself!)

4 Set has an internal cooldown (ICD) on it's proc. If you fill an ember up too quickly you won't get the proc at all. (I guess an AoE-focused restriction. I hardly think 15% crit while AoEing would break anything whatsoever.. but whatever)

[Cocobutters]

Ember generation was all it was really good for. I'm pretty sure it's not even worth it to RoF w/ MF for single target (and that's a 100% damage buff)

I would disagree that it would not be worth it to use on a single target if you were ever in that situation anyway.

[Brusalk]

I would disagree that it would not be worth it to use on a single target if you were ever in that situation anyway.

Too many double negatives in both our posts :P

What are you disagreeing with?

[Cocobutters]

Too many double negatives in both our posts :P

What are you disagreeing with?

oh, my bad on how i worded it. I was disagreeing on what you said about it not being worth it to cast with MF active on while on a single target.

[Brusalk]

oh, my bad on how i worded it. I was disagreeing on what you said about it not being worth it to cast with MF active on while on a single target.

AH.

A few posts further down from that I reneged on that statement.

I haven't done a ton of 5.4 theorycrafting because, well, I haven't had to. (No changes means nothing to do, and I don't value the RoF nerf without compensation worth me spending time on figuring it out :P)

I doubt Destro will be using anything but AD next tier except for maybe extremely movement intense fights, due to the potency of being able to time DS w/ ICD trinkets for CBolt burns, and the relative weakness of MF for Destro.


Once we get some compensation changes I'll do a lot more work into it, but it may be that if you have a free MF CD (>1 min between AoE and you're using MF for some reason) it may be worth it.

I kind of doubt that it'd be at the point where MF would be better than AD for single target.

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Ooh, 1900th post. Nice round number. I don't want to post again now

[sasofrass]

PVE:

i'm not sure what they'll do. AoE is clunky on ptr for sure, you end up running out of embers, need to have RoF generate more embers with more targets otherwise this spec is going to feel terrible. Bland single target rotation with a very clunky aoe "rotation" does not feel good.

I'd prefer they buff chaos bolt and shadowburn more than incinerate and conflag (if they do decide to buff either (which is needed)) because their philosophy is that our ember consuming spells should feel special and powerful, so they should do more damage than they're doing. I'd love to see 25% buff to chaos bolt and shadowburn and a 15% buff to incinerate and conflag.


PVP:

With the resil change and the -25% damage against players, chaos bolt is already very weak so a buff would be great. If a player gets into our execute range, who cares if shadowburn damage is a lot, that's the point of it the spell. You managed to fall under 20%, you get to die.

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I also feel like immolate is a really lame DoT that doesn't last long enough or do enough damage, even after the 10% buff. :c

[whi]

To bust some myths surrounding rain of fire i see repeated over and over here:
- taking rof out of single target rotation is a loss of almost 10k dps out of 218k my 549ilvl(uvls/wush) char theoretically does, and a loss of haste's worth of around 15% with sac, and almost 11k out of my 221k with sup with simliar loss of haste's weights - still best stat for sup and 2nd behind mastery for sac(crit>=haste with and without rof using chayes instead of uvls for sac; haste>crit>=master for sac, haste>crit>mastery for sup with breath), everything with mastery>haste>crit stat priority(14/9/5k unbuffed)
- according to last simc version rof is dps neutral, or a tiny gain for sac, and a 2.5k gain for sup on the ptr(207.5>210k), and changes haste's worth accordingly - +- nautral for sac, few% gain for sup, all single target

As far as i'm aware last ptr version of simc doesn't contain all the rppm/trinket changes or the immolate buff that happened few days ago, so this stuff will obviously change.


I wouldn't count on some huge so called compensations, a 10% buff to incinerate to go along the immolate one and we're back to live numbers(and probably a bit higher with ad/fel flame changes), which ofcourse means we still suck on single target. One could hope, that with the change to mf and rof's ember gen -thus lower "cleave" potential- they could buff it, but it's blizz after all.

[Archimand]

so many lovely destru goes on the shelf for anything other then soloing

affli/demo here i come