Warlock patch 5.4 discussion

[Deleted]

completely agree, simulations should always be taken with a grain of salt, as they wont simulate YOU nor will they simulate the fight.

[ZaneBusby]

Another PTR build, another stage closer to patch going live without Destruction getting fixed... I'm going to be so fucking mad if Blizz let it go live as it is, then wonder why NOBODY fucking plays it.

[Deleted]

Honestly, no i dont think AD will be the default, especially during progression. A LOT of the fights have a solid amount of movement, along with a ton of aoe/cleave fights. There will definitely be times where AD will be the best choice, but a lot of times where it wont be as well.

As far as your obsession with simulations... i just dont get it. Simulations have been inaccurate for a long time especially for warlocks, they are not real world situations, and they are a robot executing an exact order of events every time. I see their benefits, but I think people overplay them, and if you ask any other top warlocks, they'll agree with me on that ( esp sparkuggz ).

Even imperfect data is 100 times better than the arguments you bring, which is just pure opinion, inaccurate napkin math, poor man's simulation with 1 iteration or calling on authority... Simulation is the best way we have to assess the value of trinkets, the only other way is looking at a massive amount of actual combat logs which do not exist with exactly the same conditions for different trinkets.

You know that when you pull a boss it automatically sets all your trinkets to 90 seconds ( as in it acts as if you HAVE NOT HAD A PROC for 90 seconds ), thus with KTT nearly always procs on the pull.

Yes obviously I know that because i said specifically with 90s timer. 0,92 RPPM means the expected time to proc is 65,2 seconds. That means the proc chance does not even start increasing until 97,8s after last proc. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6892090046

[Cebel]

Even imperfect data is 100 times better than the arguments you bring, which is just pure opinion, inaccurate napkin math, poor man's simulation with 1 iteration or calling on authority... Simulation is the best way we have to assess the value of trinkets, the only other way is looking at a massive amount of actual combat logs which do not exist with exactly the same conditions for different trinkets.



Yes obviously I know that because i said specifically with 90s timer. 0,92 RPPM means the expected time to proc is 65,2 seconds. That means the proc chance does not even start increasing until 97,8s after last proc. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6892090046

A) this link you shared is over 5 months old.
B) RPPM trinkets ( unless otherwise stated ), can proc immediately thereafter, so im not sure where youre getting the number of not being able to get a proc until 97.8s after the last proc, because thats just flat out false. ( Go test it on PTR for yourself ).
C) No one said simulations dont have their uses, simply that we do not need them to effectively theorycraft about the trinkets using the math available to us.

[Deleted]

A) this link you shared is over 5 months old.
B) RPPM trinkets ( unless otherwise stated ), can proc immediately thereafter, so im not sure where youre getting the number of not being able to get a proc until 97.8s after the last proc, because thats just flat out false. ( Go test it on PTR for yourself ).
C) No one said simulations dont have their uses, simply that we do not need them to effectively theorycraft about the trinkets using the math available to us.

Literally all the info in that post is still valid. Maybe if you actually read it you would have found out that the proc chance for a trinket remains the same over time until 1,5 times the expected time to proc have passed since your last proc. Thus ''KTT nearly always procs on the pull" which you said is complete rubbish.

How do you think you can theorycraft trinket procs without simulating them? Even a case as simple as the Bindings proc vs KTT proc would require some serious math, considering you have to account for so many interactions with other procs. Hell, how are you even going to find out the value of 2000 haste without simulating it? Or is your definition of ''theorycraft'' just spitting out random thoughts and opinions and basing the value of trinkets on that?

[Cebel]

Literally all the info in that post is still valid. Maybe if you actually read it you would have found out that the proc chance for a trinket remains the same over time until 1,5 times the expected time to proc have passed since your last proc. Thus ''KTT nearly always procs on the pull" which you said is complete rubbish.

How do you think you can theorycraft trinket procs without simulating them? Even a case as simple as the Bindings proc vs KTT proc would require some serious math, considering you have to account for so many interactions with other procs. Hell, how are you even going to find out the value of 2000 haste without simulating it? Or is your definition of ''theorycraft'' just spitting out random thoughts and opinions and basing the value of trinkets on that?

Im so glad you've paid so much attention, and tested so much, that your knowledge of all of the things discussed in these forums is beyond everyone elses. Its been super fun trying to have a meaningful discussion with you. Sorry my actual information, provided by you know... ACTUALLY TESTING, disagrees with your theoretical information and simcrafts. My bad. Have a great day, maybe someone else will post here soon who can actually have a conversation with someone without resulting to shit talking. Or at the very least, if they're gonna shit talk, be able to back it up with their actual personal results which you have none of.


Also based on your math, and the fact that blizzard set the internal timer to 90 seconds when you pull a boss... that means KTT has a 100% chance to proc 7.8s after the pull.... thus it "nearly always procs" on the pull. Thanks have a great day. Next in line please step forward.

[Szarala]

As someone for whom KJC actually made playing warlock enjoyable again, and who HATES cooldowns, I'll likely find myself using AD over the new KJC (assuming I retain interest at all).

The new KJC does not feel talent-worthy at all and frankly should be a baseline effect. Given GC's latest tweets, however, I can hold my breath til I die over that, since apparently he hates casting on the move as much as I hate it not being an option.

[Deleted]

Again not what I said. RPPM mechanics are very simple. You keep the base proc rate until ~98s and then it starts going up slowly. Meaning you are nowhere guaranteed to have a proc close to the pull.

You are the one that claims you can accurately theorycraft trinkets without simulation, but if I ask you how it's suddenly personal? ''Actual information'', that means your math on ''average int gain from proc'' (completely meaningless statistic) and one very small combat log that proves absolutely nothing? Are you seriously claiming this is enough to know what trinket is best, because apparently you don't need a simulation for it?

[Cebel]

Again not what I said. RPPM mechanics are very simple. You keep the base proc rate until ~98s and then it starts going up slowly. Meaning you are nowhere guaranteed to have a proc close to the pull.

You are the one that claims you can accurately theorycraft trinkets without simulation, but if I ask you how it's suddenly personal? ''Actual information'', that means your math on ''average int gain from proc'' (completely meaningless statistic) and one very small combat log that proves absolutely nothing? Are you seriously claiming this is enough to know what trinket is best, because apparently you don't need a simulation for it?

Since i apparently cant have a discussion with you since youre clearly the all knowing god of all things knowable. I've spent the past hour opening on the test dummy, getting a KTT to proc, immediately soulswapping dots off and stopping damage, and then waiting 90 seconds AFTER the proc ( to simulate the 90 second pull protection ), and then attacking again....

I managed to get in 35 "pulls" like this.... and out of those 35 "pulls", 33 of them the trinket proced within 6 seconds....

Obviously this sample size is small, but in real world situations, the trinket is procing far more than you seem to believe it mathematically possible. Now as I've stated again, since no one can have a discussion with you without simcraft, I'm going to stop responding to your posts from here on. Best of luck in progression next tier.

[Deleted]

Regarding trinkets, I think it's a pretty pointless discussion since we can't back anything up with simulations.

This is bullshit on so many levels... There's plenty of stuff you can talk about without the need of simulations, and so far I see the discussions have been going well.

Simulations do nothing but simulate target dummy fights. Just a few examples, there's no way they will take into account using 2x DSs during a specific phase like rag P3 (thus ignoring your trinkets), what the value of KJC is, or how you are going to benefit from the increased radius of MF.

[Deleted]

With 0,92 RPPM and 90s artificial timer for pull protection, you should have no increased proc rate on the pull at all. I'm a bit surprised it is proccing on the pull for you, could be the RPPM changes are not fully in yet or something.

Am I misunderstanding something here? 0,92 RPPM means that it proccs once every 65sec, so with a 90sec setting on pull it got 25sec over this proccrate, that would mean it already got an increased proccrate on pull.
And BTW, I guess you misunderstood the wording "procc protection", since it doesn´t mean that it can´t procc before this time is over.
Lets say Trinket XYZ got this RPPM of 0,92, so it proccs every 65sec. So lets say it got a 50% chance to procc in the first 10 seconds of the pull (attention: It´s NOT 0!!!), that would mean with a timer of 30sec it got a LOWER proccrate (lets say 25%, I don´t know the actual formular for this calculation, but I can post it for you after work if you want to ), and after a timer of 130 sec it got a HIGHER proccrate (100% for example).
Trinkets ALWAYS have a chance to procc and it´s getting higher the longer you havn´t got a procc

[Deleted]

As someone for whom KJC actually made playing warlock enjoyable again, and who HATES cooldowns, I'll likely find myself using AD over the new KJC (assuming I retain interest at all).

The new KJC does not feel talent-worthy at all and frankly should be a baseline effect. Given GC's latest tweets, however, I can hold my breath til I die over that, since apparently he hates casting on the move as much as I hate it not being an option.

I love casting on the move, to me it was the best quality of life change ever and I'd rather have it become standard for all caster classes than be nerfed.
Too bad GC doesn't like it and think many ranged classes have a nice niche in being s..t in fights with moves.
Especially when Chilton says individual responsability will increase in raids which is almost always related to moving.
Thank God for plates he doesn't renege on the astounding amount of mobility and closers they got.

[Deleted]

I love casting on the move, to me it was the best quality of life change ever and I'd rather have it become standard for all caster classes than be nerfed.

At first i was thinking the same. But after giving it a thought, I kinda like the TBC version of the game more, where ranged actually had to overcome movement. It made fights more interesting, you actually had to think where you want to position. Cast while moving? Yes, instant life taps and that's it. Of course, this would imply that no other ranged would cast while moving, not even hunters. KJC seems like easy mode to me.

[jackvii]

At first i was thinking the same. But after giving it a thought, I kinda like the TBC version of the game more, where ranged actually had to overcome movement. It made fights more interesting, you actually had to think where you want to position. Cast while moving? Yes, instant life taps and that's it. Of course, this would imply that no other ranged would cast while moving, not even hunters. KJC seems like easy mode to me.

TBC didn't have fights like Tortos and Lei Shen that are predominantly movement fights. Encounters are far more complex than they were 6 years ago and most of the TBC fights were 90% stationary.

I can think of only Void Reaver, Vashj and to some extent Malchazezaar that had really anything comparable to the ToT level of movement.

[Deleted]

TBC didn't have fights like Tortos and Lei Shen that are predominantly movement fights. Encounters are far more complex than they were 6 years ago and most of the TBC fights were 90% stationary.

I can think of only Void Reaver, Vashj and to some extent Malchazezaar that had really anything comparable to the ToT level of movement.

Ofc they were mostly stationary, since they wanted casters to dps not just run around the whole fight. But every fight required movement to some degree.

I just think that I like that design more, it gives more room for them to do encounters that challenge the player. Most of the time stationary, but with at least some movement required. Think of Illidan, you had to move a lot after phase 2. Or Kil'jaeden, move inside the bubble every half a minute and then back to your spot.

If they allow ranged dps to do the same dps while moving, they will have to design fights with that in mind. Most of the fights would become: do your rotation while being constantly on the move. I myself find that rather easy/annoying and it cuts down the challenge of thinking your position / handling movement.

[Deleted]

Ofc they were mostly stationary, since they wanted casters to dps not just run around the whole fight. But every fight required movement to some degree.

I just think that I like that design more, it gives more room for them to do encounters that challenge the player. Most of the time stationary, but with at least some movement required. Think of Illidan, you had to move a lot after phase 2. Or Kil'jaeden, move inside the bubble every half a minute and then back to your spot.

If they allow ranged dps to do the same dps while moving, they will have to design fights with that in mind. Most of the fights would become: do your rotation while being constantly on the move. I myself find that rather easy/annoying and it cuts down the challenge of thinking your position / handling movement.

you never had to move much at illidan if you positioned yourself correctly, atleast 95% of that fight i stood still nuking but i agree with you, all fights needs movement to some degree, just take jin'rohk, yes most of the time you can just stand still and nuke, but you still have to move or you die. most of the previous bosses in earlier xpacs it was more about small movement windows, where you needed to move for like 3 secs to avoid a raid mechanic, in MoP the movement itself is more of a mechanic than ever b4.

[Cloche]

I am not sure if anyone has done this, but I did a test of going with Sacrifice, when I have 7805 Haste, 15% hit, 4,473 Crit and 14760 Mastery, I popped all my CDs, Dark soul twice, berserking twice, doomguard, no pots/flasks/food, and did around 450k burst and sustained a good 200k on a target dummy for a good minute and a half without applying the dots to a secondary target, I was using for trinkets (Kardris Toxic Totem, Bindings of Immersius) with all the tier pieces gemming int-mastery in red sockets, and 320 mastery in yellow sockets. KTT did about 1.5mil, might sacrifice be a possible way to go?

[Hurtlocker]

I don't think dummy dips is a good measure of what will perform better. Sac seems appealing since you can stand still and maintain high uptimes on MG. It probably won't be as good in movement fights or multidot fights. If it is, blizz will just nerf it again to make it more situational.

[Cloche]

I don't think dummy dips is a good measure of what will perform better. Sac seems appealing since you can stand still and maintain high uptimes on MG. It probably won't be as good in movement fights or multidot fights. If it is, blizz will just nerf it again to make it more situational.

They already nerfed it several times, and I can see your point but thats all I can go on atm when there are no bosses available for testing without some sort of group. There is no reason for them to nerf it again because you can just channel malefic, i'm not even sure if its viable but it did a decent amount of damage in a short time.

[Deleted]

well, in theory, in our pre-ilvl 553 gear atleast, sac will prolly not be worth it coz you need a very high uptime on MG with the nerf to it, and the amount of uptime needed might not even be possible.