Warlock patch 5.4 discussion

[Lethl]

I'd like to think of this as an opportunity to see some changes, but sadly, if bliz's lack of previous response is any indication, they are completely content with our 'rotation'.

Yeah i agree, and they already said they wont do anything drastic mid expansion changes to the rotation. I think atleast they should told us something about destro. GC avoiding it and wont respond to anything about destro. Could be either way... They are on to something or they simply wont make a change at all.

[Deleted]

A few people in this thread remember, but for those that didn't see it, locks have been bitching about Destro needing some proc/etc love waaaaaaaaay back in MoP beta.

Correct, but there were also a lot of people that feared we might get another ISF.

[Deleted]

Destro's single target rotation involves: immo, conflag, inci, chbolt, shburn, and fel flame on the move, so 6 spells.

Affli's single target rotation involves: corr, ua, agony, haunt, mg, ds and fel flame on the move, so 7 spells.

So affli has 1 more button to push compared to destro, yet nobody complains about affli needing anything. Why can't specs be a bit more different? Do they all need to have the exact same number of buttons to push?

Even if destro's rotation is easier than affli in single target, destro acually has an aoe rotation, which is more interesting than seed spam.

I'm personally fine with destro as it is. It may seem boring at target dummies, but exactly like Xelnath said, that's what encounters are for, to give you something else to pay attention to. In any case, giving free shadowburn procs > 20% would later imply nerfing it, I doubt anyone would want that.

[Zevoa]

Correct, but there were also a lot of people that feared we might get another ISF.

I'm probably one of the few people that preferred Cataclysm Destruction over the MoP version.

That being said, the specialization then was not very rewarding, in terms of the number of buffs and debuffs you had keep track of in order to maintain competitive DPS; at least in comparison to the other options you and other classes had.

[Gohzerlock]

I'm probably one of the few people that preferred Cataclysm Destruction over the MoP version.

That being said, the specialization then was not very rewarding, in terms of the number of buffs and debuffs you had keep track of in order to maintain competitive DPS; at least in comparison to the other options you and other classes had.

Soulfire procs were fun, but i'd suppose if we argued for pet synergy we'd have every destro lock using an imp for proc's and it doesn't seem like they want that. ISF was okish when it was a haste buff, something you could actually feel. It was terrible as a blanket damage buff that we were balanced around.

[Xorn]

I'm expecting, at the VERY least, a buff to Incinerate. Otherwise we'll be using FF instead.

[rijn dael]

Is the procing of Chaos Wave, rather then Hand of Gul'dan, from the 4pc bonus while in Metamorphosis intended?

I think it still costing us fury for the time being, which is clearly a bug either way.

[Resentful]

So uh I'm still very new to my lock this expansion /forgive me. Is the Lei-shen trinket terrible in 5.4 now?

[Deleted]

So uh I'm still very new to my lock this expansion /forgive me. Is the Lei-shen trinket terrible in 5.4 now?

Yes, unlike the other T15 trinkets it did not get mad RPPM. Combined with no haste scaling and pull protection practically removes, UVLS is not looking good.

[pokeadott]

Destro's single target rotation involves: immo, conflag, inci, chbolt, shburn, and fel flame on the move, so 6 spells.

Affli's single target rotation involves: corr, ua, agony, haunt, mg, ds and fel flame on the move, so 7 spells.

So affli has 1 more button to push compared to destro, yet nobody complains about affli needing anything.

Ignoring FF and SB/DS (just execute versions of their counterparts), you have 4 spells for Destro and 5 spells for Aff. In a 4v5 comparison, that's already a 25% difference in spell lineup and Aff means watching 3 timers vs. watching 1 for destro. It goes further thanks to snapshotting. Aff involves very carefully micro managing the strength and duration of 3 DoTs (4 counting Haunt) and how they interact with shards and Haunt and even channel ticks. Yes, this is mainly done through AffDoTs, WeakAuras, etc. but it's a pretty involved gameplay component and there is a fairly large window of success/failure based on accounting for and reacting to current/previous/upcoming procs and timers.

The only thing you need to do with Destro is spam conflag on CD, fill with incin, refresh immo and cast CB with procs. You could probably script a cast sequence of immos/conflags/CBs based on pure timing around DS and not have that much a variance on your realworld ST dps.

I'm not saying you need a PhD to play Aff or that Destro needs to be some advanced superuser spec, but as is the spec needs something else to keep my interest while dpsing. The rotation is too static and dull.

[Kagecamia]

Posting this from the wow forums: There is a similar thread there that talks about the blatant lie GC told us.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...05289?page=1#7

"As I said, this isn't related to the nerfs. It's more related to us getting nerfed, followed by Ghostcrawler saying, essentially, "What nerfs? We barely changed anything."

Of course, maybe I'm being too harsh. Maybe they did try to avoid changing too much, and failed epicly at doing so. If that's the case, maybe they're not fit to continue working on this game."

"The tone of the Warlock passage struck the wrong chord with me. It sounded like they were making our lives easier, while ignoring the fact that the changes until now are a pretty significant nerf.

Also, the dichotomy between the attitude towards Warlocks and Mages. Both have a similar problem "Amazing scaling and extremely good damage right now, along with a few broken mechanics." The response to Mages was "We don't think scaling will be a problem for 5.4, and don't want to change too many mechanics until the next expansion. The response to Warlocks was, "Ha! We're nerfing and changing one of your specs pretty extremely." "

inb4 catamode 30% nerf to all lock abilities at numbers pass

- - - Updated - - -

Is the procing of Chaos Wave, rather then Hand of Gul'dan, from the 4pc bonus while in Metamorphosis intended?

It also isn't supposed to be draining fury and only proccing when we have charges.....i posted 3 weeks ago about this on the bug reports.....no response on forums or twitter.

[Jessicka]

A few people in this thread remember, but for those that didn't see it, locks have been bitching about Destro needing some proc/etc love waaaaaaaaay back in MoP beta. We received approximately 0 feedback on those numerous threads/posts in the beta forums. The only reason that topic hasn't been continued further is the emergence of Rain of Fire.

I'd like to think of this as an opportunity to see some changes, but sadly, if bliz's lack of previous response is any indication, they are completely content with our 'rotation'.

To be perfectly honest, I think this class has had way too many changes, buff, nerfs and "clever uses of game mechanics" hauled over it this expansion already. Little wonder that they're questioning as to whether the whole revamp was worth it, but having been revamped and revamped every minor and major content patch it's a wonder anyone has kept up playing Warlocks at all.

[Jetjaguar]

- CC
- Spell Steal
- Solo Soak
- Fall/Throw off cancellation
- City Portals

Every class has CC, most have solo soaks, and spell steal has had extremely minor functionality in any type of raiding outside of it being a purge with flavor which warlocks shamans and priests and hunters have anyway... I really don't even know what to say to the other things. A lot of classes have fall cancellation but that's not exactly raid utility, though it will be nice for Malkorak. The only utility mages brought this expansion was RoF on will of the emperor and something like that will probably not happen again after the changes to the spell. Mage utility is not even in the same dimension as Warlock utility. If mages didn't have damage, they would be more useless than warriors. Mages are like the wind walker monk of caster classes, granted mages are relatively more useful.

[Deleted]

I'm probably one of the few people that preferred Cataclysm Destruction over the MoP version.

That being said, the specialization then was not very rewarding, in terms of the number of buffs and debuffs you had keep track of in order to maintain competitive DPS; at least in comparison to the other options you and other classes had.

I loved ISF and cata destro also. The amount of work you had to pull off was more then any other classes. Unforgiving? Yes, but playing a warlock back then was not about commodity. If locks sac health for mana so can the player sac some nerves.

[Deleted]

To be perfectly honest, I think this class has had way too many changes, buff, nerfs and "clever uses of game mechanics" hauled over it this expansion already. Little wonder that they're questioning as to whether the whole revamp was worth it, but having been revamped and revamped every minor and major content patch it's a wonder anyone has kept up playing Warlocks at all.

playing a lock has always been a rollercoaster ride of nerfs, buffs, overhauls and as you put it "clever use of game mechanics", its just as much a part of playing a warlock as it is casting spells, if you havent accepted that by now, you've prolly picked the wrong class. ive started to look at it as a lock class mechanic tbh, any patch were we are op, you should enjoy it coz it wont last long, any patch were we're worth our spot, you should enjoy coz chances are we will get hit hard with the nerf bat, if you want to play a class that is always worth their spot, that very rarely get nerfs and are always borderline OP, then mages is the class for you, ofc the clueless ppl that already plays mage would say differently, ignorance is bliss after all.

[Jessicka]

playing a lock has always been a rollercoaster ride of nerfs, buffs, overhauls and as you put it "clever use of game mechanics", its just as much a part of playing a warlock as it is casting spells, if you havent accepted that by now, you've prolly picked the wrong class. ive started to look at it as a lock class mechanic tbh, any patch were we are op, you should enjoy it coz it wont last long, any patch were we're worth our spot, you should enjoy coz chances are we will get hit hard with the nerf bat, if you want to play a class that is always worth their spot, that very rarely get nerfs and are always borderline OP, then mages is the class for you, ofc the clueless ppl that already plays mage would say differently, ignorance is bliss after all.

I put up with it. Plenty don't. That's the point I'm making; that at this point even I'm finding it wearing.

[Bonkura]

To be perfectly honest, I think this class has had way too many changes, buff, nerfs and "clever uses of game mechanics" hauled over it this expansion already. Little wonder that they're questioning as to whether the whole revamp was worth it, but having been revamped and revamped every minor and major content patch it's a wonder anyone has kept up playing Warlocks at all.

if you're talking about this expansion I feel bigger changes have been made with the patches to almost all other classes I play. it's not just warlocks being revamped, all classes got hit hard and they're still putting bandaids on them all.

I have to say this thread in general is quite pathethic. people constantly whining when in fact locks are gonna be in a good spot next tier (at least for PvE, I gave up PvP first month of MoP and I play many classes so could've gone with "fotm"). I encourage people to go have a look at the "Shadow Word: Revolution!" thread. it might give you something to think about.

[Jessicka]

if you're talking about this expansion I feel bigger changes have been made with the patches to almost all other classes I play. it's not just warlocks being revamped, all classes got hit hard and they're still putting bandaids on them all.

As true as it might be (my SPriest and Blood DK actually feel barely touched), I don't think it really excuses it. I'll also add that no other class was changed as much coming into this expansion; meaning we've overall suffered much more of it from the outset.

I have to say this thread in general is quite pathethic. people constantly whining when in fact locks are gonna be in a good spot next tier (at least for PvE, I gave up PvP first month of MoP and I play many classes so could've gone with "fotm"). I encourage people to go have a look at the "Shadow Word: Revolution!" thread. it might give you something to think about.

I don't think we'll be in a bad spot, I try to avoid the 'sky is falling' mindset; it's one thing to complain that OMG we're gonna suck because of X nerf.

Quite another to say like over the expansion I've gone from having stacked Haste, to Mastery, to Crit, back to Haste on obtaining a trinket, then that trinket will become useless overnight and I need to make sure I have a back-up for that, so then I'll need to reforge and re-gem to accomodate the need to swing back to Crit and relearn where and when to use my 90 talents, change my glyphs and figure out what the fuck I'm going to do when I need to do some prolongued AoE while not getting too close to blow the melee up while getting used to going back to moving with a low Haste, slower Fury generation playstyle.

[Bonkura]

I wouldn't stretch it that far as call it suffering. sure, I get people might not play this game to only top meters and kill bosses, but we've been shredding meters while constantly being the last-man standing during a wipe for the entire expansion. now we're getting moved a bit closer in line with other classes and there's an outrage when we in fact will still bring good utility, survivability and for sure topping the logs on at least some of the fights.

sorry for ranting btw. bad day and haven't had time to go on PTR at all this summer so after using this thread as main source for locks in 5.4 I just had to vent a bit.

Quite another to say like over the expansion I've gone from having stacked Haste, to Mastery, to Crit, back to Haste on obtaining a trinket, then that trinket will become useless overnight and I need to make sure I have a back-up for that, so then I'll need to reforge and re-gem to accomodate the need to swing back to Crit and relearn where and when to use my 90 talents, change my glyphs and figure out what the fuck I'm going to do when I need to do some prolongued AoE while not getting too close to blow the melee up while getting used to going back to moving with a low Haste, slower Fury generation playstyle.

this I do get. I'm in a really weird spot where I don't know what pieces to grab on farm (7k crit before reforging and only valor trinket + normal tf wush for affli if hc uvls is gonna get gimped as much as ppl claim here). luckily I learned fast that secondary stats with reforging don't matter that much. :P

[Deleted]

I wouldn't stretch it that far as call it suffering. sure, I get people might not play this game to only top meters and kill bosses, but we've been shredding meters while constantly being the last-man standing during a wipe for the entire expansion. now we're getting moved a bit closer in line with other classes and there's an outrage when we in fact will still bring good utility, survivability and for sure topping the logs on at least some of the fights.

sorry for ranting btw. bad day and haven't had time to go on PTR at all this summer so after using this thread as main source for locks in 5.4 I just had to vent a bit.


this I do get. I'm in a really weird spot where I don't know what pieces to grab on farm (7k crit before reforging and only valor trinket + normal tf wush for affli if hc uvls is gonna get gimped as much as ppl claim here). luckily I learned fast that secondary stats with reforging don't matter that much. :P

im still sure we will do alright next patch, we always do, and we scale very well so we might not be in the bests of spots at the begining but it will be something we will rise above as we usually do. i do think that our survivability will be lacking in pve, we wont be as easy to keep alive when it comes to surviving the big hit, but we do get some powerful extra tools for selfhealing in the new harvest life which is just plain insane and the new soul link. i do disagree about having good utility, well sorta. we have good utility just not very usefull utility or rather situational utility. the only thing ive consistantly used throughout this expac is healthstones, the occasional soulstone, the rare gateway(ji-kun and iron qon only) and the extremely situational curse of exhaustion, so while we have good situational utility, i wouldnt call it consistantly useful and we're a dps class, no dps class is there to bring utility, we're there to dps.

i do agree with what you said about the post you quoted. the stat weights have been all over the place. one tier we stack mastery, then we stack haste, then we try and balance both, then we go back to mastery again and then once again haste, there is no consistency at all and we might actually end up being worse geared for our favorite specs, specs that we're currently optimallly geared for. (ive used the lfr uvls, so it will still be an improvement compared to that, but not the tf uvls i currently have tho, it will still be a useful trinket even without the EA glyph as it will still allow us to focus on only 2 secondary stats as opposed to 3)