Warlock patch 5.4 discussion

[sasofrass]

Hmmm they doubled the value of secondary stat gems because everyone just took primary stat gems. Blizzard doesn't like group think.

Now that everyone at a certain level stacks secondary stat gems, I wonder if they will herd everyone back to primary stats again. (Yellow gems are too popular! Everyone was taking them!)

Some stack secondaries, some stack primaries. I don't think they'd go back and change these again, I feel they're working just fine.

[Woz]

Huh might actually be that way, I wish we had a decent sim

Actually on second thought, we will be able to get maybe 1000 under the cap max, and at that point it's nothing but an annoyance.

That's basically what you ended up with in T14, around 13% hit and it wasn't even bad and you got a lot more mastery out of it.

We will see!

[Hellfury]

Missing a Haunt would be more prejudicial now than it was in T14, this little detail shouldn't be forgotten, not to mention missing 1 SOC during MF losing truckloads of damage

[Cebel]

Yes but it's not included in the sum in row 23?

it is, or it was... unless somehow someone edited it... in which case ill cry

- - - Updated - - -

that depends mainly on stat value tho. i can see that mastery's value will go up a bit but i cant really see it overtake haste atm especially when you factor in that everything we do scales with haste, something that cant be said about mastery.

yeah, i get your point, too many red sockets is generally bad when you want to primarily stack secondary stats since they come from yellow sockets. problem is, you'd loose dps no matter how you gem tho, int/mastery gems isnt going to be as good as pure mastery gems if mastery is your best stat and the same goes for haste as i said earlier, it comes down to stat values which we cant really say anything about until some proper theorycrafting have been done, so until then it will mainly be based on opinions and not facts.

int/mastery gems in a red socket is actually a dps gain over 320 mastery simply because of the socket bonus ( +60 int or more in the case of next tiers gear ). The only ones that are even questionable, would be belt and leggings.

[Woz]

Missing a Haunt would be more prejudicial now than it was in T14, this little detail shouldn't be forgotten, not to mention missing 1 SOC during MF losing truckloads of damage

While true I feel still feel like any Mastery gain would be worth the miss to buff the dots - especially considering how many more Shards you are getting now vs T14 (even at the highest haste levels possible). Only thing I could see potentially trashing the non hitcapped setup is missing a pandemic refresh window. But even then it wasn't that big of a factor in T14 either.

Will be interesting nonetheless.

[Cebel]

Wushoolay got changed to 10s too, getting a stack every second.

Honestly Wushoolay HC TF 2/2 is amazing, especially for affliction. It stacks 17,150 intellect total, with 1,21 RPPM. That means the expected time between procs is 50s. The only downside is the static hit, we might have too much of it.

Black Blood doesn't seem worth it at all. It's almost the same as Wushoolay, only with haste instead of hit. However, it has 0,92 RPPM, about 31,5% less than Wushoolay. I think that will make it worse, considering how much we benefit from procs. Additionally it drops off Garrosh, so you can't get a heroic version for any kind of progress.

KTT looks like the best new trinket to me. The passive is solid and about equal to the others, Bindings being a bit better and BBoY a bit worse (cleave trinket is situational obviously). 0,92 RPPM means you will get about 76% more procs than with 115s ICD, which more than makes up for the shorter proc if you consider snapshotting.

Bindings has the best passive, but I think low proc rate will not favor us (talking affliction mostly). A 20s proc is just not that much better than a 10s proc.

As it is now, I will stick with Wushoolay for all progress. Second slot would be KTT > Bindings > Breath.

Bindings is easily BIS. Its a ICD trinket ( thus reliable ), and the passive is strong as hell. The questions come down to what trinket will we use in the 2nd trinket slot, and atm im not convinced it WONT be breath or wushoolays simply because they proc so much more than the other trinkets sadly. Ive been tweeting at lore and ghostcrawler nearly every day about getting rid of RPPM altogether, and the only response ive gotten is that they added ICD and On-Use trinkets to the loot tables, so we have options. (Which bindings is our only ICD/On-Use trinket as a caster in the entirety of SoO so thats laughable at best ).

[Deleted]

Bindings is easily BIS. Its a ICD trinket ( thus reliable ), and the passive is strong as hell. The questions come down to what trinket will we use in the 2nd trinket slot, and atm im not convinced it WONT be breath or wushoolays simply because they proc so much more than the other trinkets sadly. Ive been tweeting at lore and ghostcrawler nearly every day about getting rid of RPPM altogether, and the only response ive gotten is that they added ICD and On-Use trinkets to the loot tables, so we have options. (Which bindings is our only ICD/On-Use trinket as a caster in the entirety of SoO so thats laughable at best ).

How is getting a proc reliably every 2 minutes than getting it on average every 1m5s? The passive is really not that amazing either, you get about 2200-2300 stats with hc version plus the crit modifier which is worth another ~1000 stats. It's not significantly more than KTT passive, making KTT clearly better. Talking affliction, but I think it goes for all specs.

[Cebel]

How is getting a proc reliably every 2 minutes than getting it on average every 1m5s? The passive is really not that amazing either, you get about 2200-2300 stats with hc version plus the crit modifier which is worth another ~1000 stats. It's not significantly more than KTT passive, making KTT clearly better. Talking affliction, but I think it goes for all specs.

The passive is that amazing actually. And im not sure where you've been for all of testing, but my KTT procs on average ( based on logs ), have varied from anywhere between 1 minute, and 4-5 minutes. Its entirely RNG and during progression i dont want to rely on RNG to do competitive dps. Not to mention as I said, theres 2 trinket slots. Bindings will be one of those 2 slots on every warlock in their right mind. The competition comes down to which OTHER trinket will be in our 2nd slot.

Youre also forgetting the bindings proc lasts 20 seconds versus 10 seconds.

Heres some quick napkin math on the procs values:

BINDINGS:

13273 int for 20 seconds ( 115 second ICD )

13273 x 20 = 265,460

265,460/115 = 2308.35 average int gain from the proc.

KTT:

13273 int for 10 seconds ( RPPM, Procs may very, but for the benefit of consistency lets use Strmstrikes proc rate of 1min 5 seconds (read: 65 second icd FOR SIMPLICITIES SAKE, your procs could very well take more or even less time to proc ).


13273 x 10 = 132,730

132,730 / 65 = 2042 average int gain from the proc.



Moral of the story is, theyre pretty damn close proc wise, except bindings is going to be RELIABLE, and CONSISTENT, between attempts, which during progression ( at least at the top level ), is FAR FAR FAR more appealing to me than the POSSIBILITY of it being worse, or slightly better.

[Deleted]

It's not amazing, it's very close to all the other passives. I would much much rather have 10s procs every 65s over 20s procs every 115s, it's simply superior because you can have big dots for nearly double the time. Reliably bad is not a benefit.

Wushoolay is the obvious trinket IMO, and then KTT > Bindings > Breath for second slot.

[Cebel]

It's not amazing, it's very close to all the other passives. I would much much rather have 10s procs every 65s over 20s procs every 115s, it's simply superior because you can have big dots for nearly double the time. Reliably bad is not a benefit.

Wushoolay is the obvious trinket IMO, and then KTT > Bindings > Breath for second slot.

Tbqh wushoolay is likely to be nerfed, theres no reasoning behind a 549 trinket having a higher int proc than a 563 trinket ( comparing wushoo to black blood ).

After that then yes Id agree with the possibility of KTT and Bindings being nearly equal, however i still favor the consistency over the randomness.

[Deleted]

int/mastery gems in a red socket is actually a dps gain over 320 mastery simply because of the socket bonus ( +60 int or more in the case of next tiers gear ). The only ones that are even questionable, would be belt and leggings.

and just for the record, it isnt impossible to reach the numbers i mentioned, having tested it myself on the ptr and it is doable, got 18,3k haste having gemmed int/haste in red sockets (and appropriate haste/hit, haste in the rest) in ilvl 547-548 gear, ofc as a result my mastery is shot to hell, got around 6,5k but when you add 13+ average ilvls when you get hc gear, then its entirely possible to gem after socket bonuses and still reaching the 18,3k haste break point as afflic and have a good amount of mastery (10-12k).

[Cebel]

and just for the record, it isnt impossible to reach the numbers i mentioned, having tested it myself on the ptr and it is doable, got 18,3k haste having gemmed int/haste in red sockets (and appropriate haste/hit, haste in the rest) in ilvl 547-548 gear, ofc as a result my mastery is shot to hell, got around 6,5k but when you add 13+ average ilvls when you get hc gear, then its entirely possible to gem after socket bonuses and still reaching the 18,3k haste break point as afflic and have a good amount of mastery (10-12k).

Not without ignoring socket bonuses, or just using scaled ToT gear with bindings trinket, not to mention as youve already said youre sacrificing so much mastery i cant imagine it being a dps gain, but to each their own. Id like to see the setup youre thinking of hitting those numbers with.

[Deleted]

Not without ignoring socket bonuses, or just using scaled ToT gear with bindings trinket, not to mention as youve already said youre sacrificing so much mastery i cant imagine it being a dps gain, but to each their own. Id like to see the setup youre thinking of hitting those numbers with.

if you mean the 18,3k haste with 10-15k mastery then it is easily doable in a mix of hc and normal gear, was thinking something like(wall of text inc): Hood of the Horned Nightmare, Ashflare Pendant, Mantle of the Horned Nightmare, Xing-Ho, Breath of Yu'lon, Robes of the Horned Nightmare, Avool's Ancestral Bracers, Arcweaver Spell Sword, Revelations of Y'Shaarj, Gloves of the Horned Nightmare, Belt of Ominous Trembles, Leggings of Furious Flame, Bone-Inlaid Sandals, Extinguished Ember of Galakras, Signet of the Dinomancers, Purified Bindings of Immerseus, Black Blood of Y'Shaarj. all upgraded hc versions, no hc warforged and gemmed for haste and going after socket bonuses it should allow you to reach said numbers if my calculator is correct and didnt make any mistakes atleast.

[Deleted]

Youre also forgetting the bindings proc lasts 20 seconds versus 10 seconds.

Heres some quick napkin math on the procs values:

BINDINGS:

13273 int for 20 seconds ( 115 second ICD )

13273 x 20 = 265,460

265,460/115 = 2308.35 average int gain from the proc.

KTT:

13273 int for 10 seconds ( RPPM, Procs may very, but for the benefit of consistency lets use Strmstrikes proc rate of 1min 5 seconds (read: 65 second icd FOR SIMPLICITIES SAKE, your procs could very well take more or even less time to proc ).


13273 x 10 = 132,730

132,730 / 65 = 2042 average int gain from the proc.



Moral of the story is, theyre pretty damn close proc wise, except bindings is going to be RELIABLE, and CONSISTENT, between attempts, which during progression ( at least at the top level ), is FAR FAR FAR more appealing to me than the POSSIBILITY of it being worse, or slightly better.

While this math holds some logic at first sight, you're completele neglecting the advantage of Pandemic doing this. The passive from Bindings may be good, but it scales with gear so maybe it won't be that great before we actually get lotsa new gear. Would love to see a reliable sim of the new trinkets though.

[crimsonhead]

Does anyone have a decent idea if Destro is going to get another way to get embers faster? I know we have seen nothing so far but does anyone know if enough noise has been made for them to consider it?

[Cebel]

While this math holds some logic at first sight, you're completele neglecting the advantage of Pandemic doing this. The passive from Bindings may be good, but it scales with gear so maybe it won't be that great before we actually get lotsa new gear. Would love to see a reliable sim of the new trinkets though.

Well since im completely neglecting the advantage of pandemic I will throw it out there that youre completely neglecting that the ICD trinket lines up basically perfectly with darksoul, which is amazing for pandemic. Granted your timings are gonna get thrown off a bit if youre using Archimondes Darkness, but from testing ive seen very few fights where theres so little movement or so little aoe that AD would be the go to choice ( at least for progression, or not scumbag dpsing ). I did a quick dummy test ( 43mil dmg to the test dummy ) just to get a general idea of how good the passive is from KTT, and i must say, I am impressed. I did double upgrade it, which gives it another 1% chance to proc, but meh.

Heres the results using 2pc t16 with 2/2 upgraded bindings and KTT as far as damage breakdown goes:


So the passive KTT of 2/2 upgraded normal mode, is ~4% dps increase. Some attempts it was in the 4.3%ish range, lowest was 3.7%

So yea, this is definitely a promising trinket, and it does appear to proc nearly every time on the pull ( with bindings and everything else ) which is a HUGE bonus to it for me.

[Jetjaguar]

I like KTT because so far it's procced on the pull far more consistently than the Garrosh trinket and I generally don't like stacking stat trinkets with other 10 second buffs like berserking and synapse springs

[Deleted]

You don't think AD will be the default choice? Personally I don't think KJC offers much at all. Channeling MG is not that big a gain over using Fel Flame for movement, and so far there haven't been extremely intense movement fights. MF is very situational, adds have to spawn at just the right times for it to excel. On the other hand, AD allows you to delay all your Dark Souls except the first for up to 2 minutes without any cost, on top of getting one extra. Considering how great it is to stack it with procs/BL/execute, I think AD will be used on all but 1 or 2 fights.

With 0,92 RPPM and 90s artificial timer for pull protection, you should have no increased proc rate on the pull at all. I'm a bit surprised it is proccing on the pull for you, could be the RPPM changes are not fully in yet or something.

Regarding trinkets, I think it's a pretty pointless discussion since we can't back anything up with simulations. Also I think we will be last or close to last in line to receive the new ones, for various reasons: we don't benefit from crit amp that much and longer, less frequent procs are less good for affliction than other specs (Bindings), and more importantly our pets plus guardians miss out on cleave, multi-strike and crit amplification (3 of the trinkets we would want). In that case, maybe it's not so bad that Wushoolay and Breath are looking very good.

[Deleted]

well, you'll still get procs on pull, as that cant be removed, you are just not garanteed like you used to be. ive gotten plenty of procs on pull on the ptr, just not all the time, somewhere between 25-50% of the time or so.

[Cebel]

You don't think AD will be the default choice? Personally I don't think KJC offers much at all. Channeling MG is not that big a gain over using Fel Flame for movement, and so far there haven't been extremely intense movement fights. MF is very situational, adds have to spawn at just the right times for it to excel. On the other hand, AD allows you to delay all your Dark Souls except the first for up to 2 minutes without any cost, on top of getting one extra. Considering how great it is to stack it with procs/BL/execute, I think AD will be used on all but 1 or 2 fights.

With 0,92 RPPM and 90s artificial timer for pull protection, you should have no increased proc rate on the pull at all. I'm a bit surprised it is proccing on the pull for you, could be the RPPM changes are not fully in yet or something.

Regarding trinkets, I think it's a pretty pointless discussion since we can't back anything up with simulations. Also I think we will be last or close to last in line to receive the new ones, for various reasons: we don't benefit from crit amp that much and longer, less frequent procs are less good for affliction than other specs (Bindings), and more importantly our pets plus guardians miss out on cleave, multi-strike and crit amplification (3 of the trinkets we would want). In that case, maybe it's not so bad that Wushoolay and Breath are looking very good.

Honestly, no i dont think AD will be the default, especially during progression. A LOT of the fights have a solid amount of movement, along with a ton of aoe/cleave fights. There will definitely be times where AD will be the best choice, but a lot of times where it wont be as well.

As far as your obsession with simulations... i just dont get it. Simulations have been inaccurate for a long time especially for warlocks, they are not real world situations, and they are a robot executing an exact order of events every time. I see their benefits, but I think people overplay them, and if you ask any other top warlocks, they'll agree with me on that ( esp sparkuggz ).

With 0,92 RPPM and 90s artificial timer for pull protection, you should have no increased proc rate on the pull at all. I'm a bit surprised it is proccing on the pull for you, could be the RPPM changes are not fully in yet or something.

You know that when you pull a boss it automatically sets all your trinkets to 90 seconds ( as in it acts as if you HAVE NOT HAD A PROC for 90 seconds ), thus with KTT nearly always procs on the pull.

edit: Posting this blue post quote to add clarification to what I mean incase you misunderstood the actual changes they made to the RPPM trinkets

Can we clarify what 'rarer' RPPM procs are? We talking the meta-gem here?
We're not changing the actual RPPM proc rates at all, just how much time is "banked" before the pull. The underlying math that determines what the actual chances are isn't changing.

So, here's a couple hypothetical examples using very rough napkin math. I don't remember RPPMs for actual trinkets off the top of my head (and they're not particularly necessary for illustration purposes):

Trinket A has an RPPM that allows it to reach a 100% proc chance if it hasn't fired after 60 seconds. This trinket will have a guaranteed proc on the pull.

Trinket B has an RPPM that allows it to reach a 100% proc chance if it hasn't fired after 100 seconds. It will not be guaranteed to proc immediately, but will proc within the first 10 seconds.

Trinket C has an RPPM that allows it to reach a 100% proc chance after 2 minutes. It will not be guaranteed to proc immediately (regardless of how much time you've spent out of combat), but will proc within the first 30 seconds.

Make sense?