1. #3721
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexotic View Post
    Thats why Im asking here, I couldn't find anything about it anywhere, but ive heard about this from 5 semi credible people.
    I think what your referring to was the blue post where rppm was broken in the ptr causing them not to proc as often as they should. They have now fixed that issue and I saw a lock or 2 post that after that fix their uvls procced off the pull and they were able to maintain 100% crit doom when they were testing the ptr encounters.

  2. #3722
    Mechagnome ZaneBusby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walp View Post
    Yeah, RoF rotation over 5 minutes fight will give you for example 2-3 additional chaos bolts and LOTS of weak chaos bolts.
    If you throw away RoF and use it only on 100% mana and during Dark Soul you'll be able to buff >90% your chaos bolts.
    PLEASE, explain to me what the hell you mean by "LOTS of weak chaos bolts", because I'm REALLY not getting you right now. You should have the same number of powered up (by 4set) Chaos Bolts as without casting RoF (otherwise you're just not playing well), PLUS you'd get a couple of EXTRA Chaos Bolts that don't have the 15% crit buff. EXTRA Chaos Bolts will ALWAYS be good.

    I don't think it's so stupid. Just kinda difficult to do the math. Whether worth it or not.
    What. Are you serious right now? Chaos Bolt, even unbuffed, has the highest DPCT of any of our spells right now. Hard to do the math??? Worth it or not???

    Ok. Here's some random retarded math:
    ~9 min fight (I had to stop because of a lag spikes). The old "RoF on CD" rotation. Incinerate spam, just few Felflames. And here I'm trying my best to use set bonus procs for bolts and immolates, Black Blood trinket proc, line up Purifide Bindings with dark soul and trying to save few embers for dark soul.

    47 Chaos Bolts
    479 RoF ticks = 60 RoF casts
    According to what Zumzumzum said, 479 RoF ticks = 119,75 ember bits = 12 embers = 12 Chaos Bolts
    RoF has the same cast time as Felflame.
    If I throw out RoF and cast FF intead of it I'd get (60 casts) x (1emberbit per cast) x (1+ crit chance) ember bits.
    Let's say I have 20% crit. That would be 60*1,2=72 bits = 7 Chaos Bolts
    As you can see, in a 10 minute fight RoF gave me 12-7=5 additional Chaos Bolts. It wold be 3 Chaos Bolts for 5 min fight. (And a lot of unbuffed Chaos Bolts.)
    And I can say that it was 10 minutes of HELL. Always low on mana AND embers trying to squezze some dps out of procs. (Same dps as brainless FF spam, by the way)
    I don't want to write the rest of my math because it's too obscure and probably wrong.
    Firstly I think you're trying way too hard to get optimal RoF uptime. RoF will be a DPS increase over casting Fel Flame or an unbuffed Incinerate. That's realistically the only time. You don't need to worry about having 100% uptime on it, because it's not nearly as powerful as it is on live, but it's still going to do more DPS when you're down to just using raw fillers.

    RoF in this example is responsible for 4% additional damage(additional chaos bolts + difference in RoF and Felflame DPET).
    But I'm sure I can do better always having 2+ embers and almost full mana bar. For example spend 2 Chaos Bolts instead of 1 Chaos Bolt on Black Blood of Y'Shaarj proc(probably lined up with 15% crit buff). I don't even want to talk about boss mechanics and that you should always have 1-2 embers in stock.
    Seriously, that RoF rotation feels clunky even for Patchwerk-style fight.


    By the way. I've been doing some tests and suddenly realized that destro has 1 second GCD. The more you know lol.
    Sorry for poor english.
    And here you are admitting that RoF is a DPS increase because it has a higher DPCT than Fel Flame or an unbuffed Incinerate, and gives you extra Chaos Bolts which increases DPS... Yet you STILL start off your post mentioning "weak chaos bolts". WTF is up with that?
    Last edited by ZaneBusby; 2013-09-04 at 10:01 PM.

  3. #3723
    Stood in the Fire sasofrass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walp View Post
    Yeah, RoF rotation over 5 minutes fight will give you for example 2-3 additional chaos bolts and LOTS of weak chaos bolts.
    If you throw away RoF and use it only on 100% mana and during Dark Soul you'll be able to buff >90% your chaos bolts.
    3 additional chaos bolts, even if weak, is still better than none. With no trinkets and in 550 item level gear, the bolts still manage to do 400k+ damage, not to mention RoF will end up doing ~20-30k more damage per full rain of fire cast compared to incinerate, which all adds up aswell.

  4. #3724
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Restore the original ember generation ability from 5.3, and then make it only generate embers when it hits more than 1 target.
    This really is what they should have done all along, or at least started with. Makes it less attractive to keep up in a single target situation and doesn't clunkify AoE.

  5. #3725
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    We won't cast a lot of Chaos bolts with the 4 pieces buff, except if we have a high ember generation on the fight. You would be better off waiting for trinkets or Dark soul.
    Sorry I should have clarified that I was talking about 2+ targets, where I felt that the rate of ember generation was quite fluid (faster than the ICD of the 4 piece at any rate).

    Also, I tried to keep immolate buffed with the 4 set as much as possible, and weaved in chaos bolts to dump excess embers.

    Am I right to presume that this is correct play, or should we look to use incinerate/fel flame. Basically, what are peoples opinions/results on how the 4 set should best be utilised? In both single target and 2-3 target cleave.

    Quote Originally Posted by sasofrass View Post
    3 additional chaos bolts, even if weak, is still better than none. With no trinkets and in 550 item level gear, the bolts still manage to do 400k+ damage, not to mention RoF will end up doing ~20-30k more damage per full rain of fire cast compared to incinerate, which all adds up aswell.
    I think he means the same as you, that RoF is good because it provides all these additional chaos bolts. Him calling them weak was just to differentiate them from the uber buffed dark soul + trinket chaos bolts we would otherwise be saving our embers for. I think.

  6. #3726
    Haunt now deals 50% more damage, and increases damage done by all of the Warlock's damage-over-time spells against the target by 40%.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/101...ber_4-9_4_2013

  7. #3727
    Mechagnome ZaneBusby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquidsteel View Post
    I think he means the same as you, that RoF is good because it provides all these additional chaos bolts. Him calling them weak was just to differentiate them from the uber buffed dark soul + trinket chaos bolts we would otherwise be saving our embers for. I think.
    No, he's arguing against it, saying that RoF is bad for single target. Look at his post I quoted at the top of this page. (My post, #3721)

    Quote Originally Posted by Schirm View Post
    Haunt now deals 50% more damage, and increases damage done by all of the Warlock's damage-over-time spells against the target by 40%.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/101...ber_4-9_4_2013
    Awesome. A nice balancing nerf to affliction, bringing it slightly back in line with the other specs... Somewhat. (Was originally 45%)

  8. #3728
    Stood in the Fire sasofrass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZaneBusby View Post
    Awesome. A nice balancing nerf to affliction, bringing it slightly back in line with the other specs... Somewhat. (Was originally 45%)
    our multi target will still be pretty high though

  9. #3729
    Quote Originally Posted by Schirm View Post
    Haunt now deals 50% more damage, and increases damage done by all of the Warlock's damage-over-time spells against the target by 40%.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/101...ber_4-9_4_2013
    Chaos Bolt damage increased

  10. #3730
    Mechagnome ZaneBusby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pantelija View Post
    Chaos Bolt damage increased
    That's the same chaos bolt buff that was hotfixed, announced, and datamined last week. They're just adding it to the official patch notes today, that's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by sasofrass View Post
    our multi target will still be pretty high though
    No doubt. But I hate Affliction with a passion, so it just means that Demo will be that much more viable, and not completely blown out of the water by Afflic like it was in 5.0

  11. #3731
    PLEASE, explain to me what the hell you mean by "LOTS of weak chaos bolts", because I'm REALLY not getting you right now.
    Goddamit. Just log on ptr and see it yourself.
    RoF burns your mana. You have zero mana. And you are forced to cast chaos bolts just because you cannot cast anything else. Even FF. In most cases that CB has no buffs. That's what I call "weak" chaos bolt.
    You should have the same number of powered up (by 4set) Chaos Bolts as without casting RoF (otherwise you're just not playing well)
    You are forced to cast unbuffed CBs. That has nothing to do with good or bad playing. And you cannot do anything about that. And the reason is simple. Your average mana burn outweights your average mana regen. At some point (in a minute after the pull, in 2, 3, it doesn't matter) you'll stuck at zero mana.
    On live 5.3 you literally swim in embers compared to 5.4. You cast more Chaos Bolts -> gain more mana. And don't have such problems.
    EXTRA Chaos Bolts will ALWAYS be good.
    Not always. Those "extra" CBs come at a cost of weaking other spells. And I would like to emphasize that you are forced to weaken those spells.
    highest DPCT is cool. Hard to do the math???
    You sound like a simcraft monkey.
    Plain DPET doesn't take into account overall mana-to-embers conversion and resource stategy. You shouldn't compare DPETs of spells that use different resources if you are speaking about overall dps. In terms of a fixed time window when you don't have to worry about resources(you have infinite resources) that's probably true and you can say "CB is good because it has high dpct".
    Not only your RoF/Inc/FF decisions affect your chaos bolts, but also your chaos bolt casts affect your mana spells and other chaos bolts/shadowburns. That's why I said it's hard to calculate. In many cases it's random.

    And I have a perfect example of resource strategy: Unerring Vision of Lei Shen. Let's say you have 1 ember and suddenly Lei Shen trinket proced. You can use it for CB (almost doubles DPCT) or immolate (high DPCT + free embers for 1 "extra" CB).
    1)You choose to cast Chaos Bolt and that CB deals doubled damage. But in 10 seconds the target suddenly reaches 20% (And the fact that you didn't save that ember for shadowburn isn't necessarily a bad playing. For example you had zero mana or already started to cast CB during the proc). You continue your rotation whith shadowburns and stuff.
    2)You cast immolate. By the way that immolate has almost the same dpet as CB, just slighly less. After that you cast CB and the target reaches 20%. And you have 1 "extra" ember for 1 "extra" shadowburn.
    So which option is better? (1 CB with insane dpet + simple immolate) or (1 CB + 100% crit immolate + 1 "exta" shadowburn over the whole fight) ?

    And now imagine the whole fight with 10-20 "dilemmas" similar to that UVLS. Of cause there will be some average dpet for all chaos bolts in this fight, average dpet for incinerate etc.
    And now imagine another fight whith random procs. And you say that it was bad because the 1st fight had 3 less chaos bolts. And chaos bolts have huge dpet. And I say that it's hard to calculate because in the 2nd fight I had more flexibility and freedom in my resources choices.

    brb taking mah pills

  12. #3732
    Mechagnome ZaneBusby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walp View Post
    RoF burns your mana. You have zero mana. And you are forced to cast chaos bolts just because you cannot cast anything else. Even FF. In most cases that CB has no buffs. That's what I call "weak" chaos bolt. You are forced to cast unbuffed CBs. [which uses up your embers so you can't spend them on buffed CBs instead]
    This is all you had to say from the start. For 2 pages you never mentioned this, even once, and just went on and on about weak Chaos Bolts. Finally you've explained it, and now it makes sense. GG. The other 5 paragraphs of what you said was unnecessary detail, but I guess it at least shows you know what you're talking about at this point...

    But I'm still going to go out on a limb and say that RoF is still a DPS increase over Fel Flame or unbuffed Incinerate, just not worth keeping high (upwards of 50%) uptime, especially if it's eating your mana up too quick. If you have the mana, and are down to hard casting Incinerates or spamming Fel Flames, it's going to be better to use RoF in single target. (Which still proves the point that Blizz fucked up, and didn't get RoF out of the single target rotation fully, like they intended).


    Edit: I went back and double checked to see that I hadn't missed you saying it, and I guess you sort-of mentioned it in this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by walp View Post
    Well, you don't want RoF in your single target rotation for several reasons. But I personally think that the main reason is that RoF burns your mana.
    When you get 4T16 you'll want to buff all your Chaos Bolts with than 5 second buff. And if you use RoF too much you'll end with lots of weak Chaos Bolts.
    But the way you worded it was so terrible, I didn't pick up on it. I apologise for that.
    Last edited by ZaneBusby; 2013-09-05 at 06:19 AM.

  13. #3733
    Quote Originally Posted by walp View Post
    Goddamit. Just log on ptr and see it yourself.
    RoF burns your mana. You have zero mana. And you are forced to cast chaos bolts just because you cannot cast anything else. Even FF. In most cases that CB has no buffs. That's what I call "weak" chaos bolt.

    You are forced to cast unbuffed CBs. That has nothing to do with good or bad playing. And you cannot do anything about that. And the reason is simple. Your average mana burn outweights your average mana regen. At some point (in a minute after the pull, in 2, 3, it doesn't matter) you'll stuck at zero mana.
    On live 5.3 you literally swim in embers compared to 5.4. You cast more Chaos Bolts -> gain more mana. And don't have such problems.

    Not always. Those "extra" CBs come at a cost of weaking other spells. And I would like to emphasize that you are forced to weaken those spells.

    You sound like a simcraft monkey.
    Plain DPET doesn't take into account overall mana-to-embers conversion and resource stategy. You shouldn't compare DPETs of spells that use different resources if you are speaking about overall dps. In terms of a fixed time window when you don't have to worry about resources(you have infinite resources) that's probably true and you can say "CB is good because it has high dpct".
    Not only your RoF/Inc/FF decisions affect your chaos bolts, but also your chaos bolt casts affect your mana spells and other chaos bolts/shadowburns. That's why I said it's hard to calculate. In many cases it's random.

    And I have a perfect example of resource strategy: Unerring Vision of Lei Shen. Let's say you have 1 ember and suddenly Lei Shen trinket proced. You can use it for CB (almost doubles DPCT) or immolate (high DPCT + free embers for 1 "extra" CB).
    1)You choose to cast Chaos Bolt and that CB deals doubled damage. But in 10 seconds the target suddenly reaches 20% (And the fact that you didn't save that ember for shadowburn isn't necessarily a bad playing. For example you had zero mana or already started to cast CB during the proc). You continue your rotation whith shadowburns and stuff.
    2)You cast immolate. By the way that immolate has almost the same dpet as CB, just slighly less. After that you cast CB and the target reaches 20%. And you have 1 "extra" ember for 1 "extra" shadowburn.
    So which option is better? (1 CB with insane dpet + simple immolate) or (1 CB + 100% crit immolate + 1 "exta" shadowburn over the whole fight) ?

    And now imagine the whole fight with 10-20 "dilemmas" similar to that UVLS. Of cause there will be some average dpet for all chaos bolts in this fight, average dpet for incinerate etc.
    And now imagine another fight whith random procs. And you say that it was bad because the 1st fight had 3 less chaos bolts. And chaos bolts have huge dpet. And I say that it's hard to calculate because in the 2nd fight I had more flexibility and freedom in my resources choices.

    brb taking mah pills
    Your resource statement is cute, but an unrealistic scenario, considering top destro parses don't use UVLS. And in the case of it being a "dilemma"... there's always a concrete better thing to do, and that decision makes the difference between top players and the extreme top players.

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  14. #3734
    +15% damage chaos bolt was deleted???

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/101...ber_4-9_4_2013

    and dot's damage from haunt? Is still +40%?

  15. #3735
    Herald of the Titans PickleballAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xanatas View Post
    +15% damage chaos bolt was deleted???

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/101...ber_4-9_4_2013

    and dot's damage from haunt? Is still +40%?
    It's still there. It might be a little counter-intuitive but red means what they've added to the patch notes since the last official update.

    When they revert changes they tend to use a strikeout font like this.

  16. #3736
    Deleted
    with the recent changes to haunt, will demo outscale affliction singeltarget? or was affliction over the top that a nerf is justified?
    Last edited by mmoca34c58dfba; 2013-09-05 at 11:57 AM.

  17. #3737
    Quote Originally Posted by Rethul Ur No View Post
    It's still there. It might be a little counter-intuitive but red means what they've added to the patch notes since the last official update.

    When they revert changes they tend to use a strikeout font like this.
    oh tnx

    the red font scare me

  18. #3738
    High Overlord savethetuna's Avatar
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    I wanted to raid SoO as affliction and nothing else but everyone keep's telling me demo. I'll see what goes down in the next few days so I can base my decision xD
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  19. #3739
    Quote Originally Posted by savethetuna View Post
    I wanted to raid SoO as affliction and nothing else but everyone keep's telling me demo. I'll see what goes down in the next few days so I can base my decision xD
    ...
    if you want to play affliction, then go for it, its the best dps spec on the PTR atm. Demo is actually the worst. I dont know how that could even be a dilema.
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  20. #3740
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispotter View Post
    ...
    if you want to play affliction, then go for it, its the best dps spec on the PTR atm. Demo is actually the worst. I dont know how that could even be a dilema.
    Have you done any PTR testing? Demo is not far behind affliction.

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